Freedom of Speech

[Zafran]

t's my assumption that speech that incites violence might be restricted (UK is the only country I know uses it) but most western countries are pretty good with truly free speech.

No Germany and Austria have strict no denial of Holocaust Policy and France has done the same

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/french-comedian-dieudonne-prison-sentence-hate-speech

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42164853

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefarright

As I stated before free speech is based on social and historical factors and has nothing to do with any Objective measure.

 

[Alamgir]

Speaking purely from experience I don't know what are the restrictions of what I can and cannot say

Exactly, you don't know, so don't make any comments in the first place.

That's what religious people wrongly assume but the numbers show how far from the truth you are.

Those statistics mean nothing, because according to your worldview, there is no right or wrong. You cannot say anybody who has killed or raped someone objectively did anything wrong, where as I can. You can disapprove of it, but as per your philosophy on things that's irrelevant and just part of your subjective bias, you have nothing objective to prove that your opinion is correct (unlike people who believe in God).

 

[Raymann]

Those statistics mean nothing, because according to your worldview, there is no right or wrong.

Your brain is too small to understand my worldview. I have a much wider view of what is right and what is wrong than you.
You rely on an unproven imaginary figure who decided what is right and what is wrong for you more than 1400 years ago.
Your brain is just a waste of space, you're a sheep who follows and obeys and follows and obeys over and over.
I'm a free thinker (don't bother trying to understand what that means), you're not allowed to think.

78% of all scientists in the world are Atheists. You should thank us for making this world better.

The prisons all over the world show Atheist are consistently under 0% of the total population.
You might think your "Objective Morality" gives you an edge.
An edge on what ???
The prisons are full of people with "Objective Morality"
The terrorists all share the same "Objective Morality" you are so proud of.

You cannot say anybody who has killed or raped someone objectively did anything wrong

We have been discussing those issues on my own started threads, haven't we ???
And you are one the many who is ashamed of me revealing the injustices committed by people with your same "Objective Morality".

you have nothing objective to prove that your opinion is correct (unlike people who believe in God).

Again, where that has taken you so far ???
I don't need an extraterrestrial to tell me that killing is wrong.
I figured it out on my own.
Same with stealing, raping, slaving, oppressing, etc.

Unlike you, I respect all religions and religious people (I came from a religious family) and most of my friends are religious people.
But thinking you know the truth doesn't give you the right to impose it on the rest of the people.
That's what some people who share your same religion and "Objective Morality" have been trying to do all along.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Your brain is too small to understand my worldview. I have a much wider view of what is right and what is wrong than you.
You rely on an unproven imaginary figure who decided what is right and what is wrong for you more than 1400 years ago.

It is a waste of time to discuss anything with you. As long as you consider Divine guidance to be imaginary, you will never be able to understand our perspective.

If you really want to understand Islam and Muslims, you should first understand our Creator, the Sustainer of everything. Otherwise, we can show you the exit door.

​

 

[Raymann]

It is a waste of time to discuss anything with you. As long as you consider Divine guidance to be imaginary, you will never be able to understand our perspective.

You all knew what being an Atheist means. It means I don't believe God exists.
Where I grew up leaving Christianity doesn't mean you lose your friends nor the affection of your family.
Actually doesn't affect your social life at all, everything continues as always.
Doesn't change your moral values, they stay with you forever.
I still respect religions and religious people as always, they are my friends and family.
They didn't start telling me my opinion is no longer valid since I'm an Atheist now.
No one has ever tell me that my "Morals" are no longer good enough because I'm an Atheist.
Those attacks seem to come exclusively from Muslims.
You think I need to believe in God to understand Muslims and Islam ? You're wrong, I have lived all my life among religious people.
I argue here just like I do with Christians, Jews and other Atheists, no difference.
It's you who presumes I'm an inferior destined to Hell Fire.
Every time you lose an argument you're going to remind me that my morals are not valid.
Who is the insecure, you or me ???
It's your house, feel free to close the door anytime you want.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Raymann;

The terrorists all share the same "Objective Morality" you are so proud of.

The American military has been responsible for between 12 - 20 million deaths since WW2; a much bigger number than any terrorist organisation. America fought against Iraq looking for invisible wmds, this seems hypocritical when America probably has the world's largest stockpile of said weapons.

If America is searching for a peaceful world, they need to find peaceful solutions.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.
Eric

 

[fschmidt]

I have a much wider view of what is right and what is wrong than you.

You certainly do. In your wider view, what is right is wrong and what is wrong is right. That's really wide.

 

[Abz2000]

@al khorasani
Your brain is too small to understand my worldview. I have a much wider view of what is right and what is wrong than you.
You rely on an unproven imaginary figure who decided what is right and what is wrong for you more than 1400 years ago.
Your brain is just a waste of space, you're a sheep who follows and obeys and follows and obeys over and over.
I'm a free thinker (don't bother trying to understand what that means), you're not allowed to think.

Here to learn about Islam from people who you claim aren't allowed to think?

I had a very strong feeling you were lying when you denied being a troll.

78% of all scientists in the world are Atheists. You should think us for making this world better.

You know that's a bullsh!t stat, especially given that you don't know how many scientists there are other than the ones some lying atheists like yourself counted (science is a very broad subject) and polled.
Anyway, there are zero atheist scientists - given the fact that science is a logical study of facts based on truthful data and not on denial, suppression, and censorship of pertinent facts.

The prisons all over the world show Atheist are consistently under 0% of the total population.

Under 0% ?
Lol - that must've been from one of your "scientist" stats.
0% Minus how many % in prison?
Last time i checked america's share was around 25% of the global prison population - despite americans only being around 5% of the global human population.

You might think your "Objective Morality" gives you an edge.
An edge on what ???
The prisons are full of people with "Objective Morality"
The terrorists all share the same "Objective Morality" you are so proud of.

Hell will be filled with unrepentant liars and trolls.

We have been discussing those issues on my own started threads, haven't we ???

Your comments on your atheist proselytising falsehoodmongering threads are a reflection of you and those whom you represent.

And you are one the many who is ashamed of me revealing the injustices committed by people with your same "Objective Morality".

I don't think anyone who knows Islam and works to follow it is ashamed at all - rather, your threads are a wonderful testimony of how lame and stupid anti-islam trolls are, just that being in them feels negative and dirty.

Again, where that has taken you so far ???
I don't need an extraterrestrial to tell me that killing is wrong.

If you believe that killing is wrong, you have borne witness upon yourself - karma will be dealt swiftly.

I figured it out on my own.

Congratulations on what you figured out, it has been written as binding upon you.

Same with stealing, raping, slaving, oppressing, etc.

Wonderful - now adhere to the values you claim to uphold.

Unlike you, I respect all religions and religious people (I came from a religious family) and most of my friends are religious people.

Lol ^ read.

But thinking you know the truth doesn't give you the right to impose it on the rest of the people.

If that is true, Impose it on yourself, close the courts of justice, and release the prisoners.

That's what some people who share your same religion and "Objective Morality" have been trying to do all along.

Well since you're an exception to those people, i'm sure it'll be easy for you

 

[Abz2000]

You all knew what being an Atheist means.

I know what a compulsive liar is too.

It means I don't believe God exists.

If i say i don't believe that your leader - to who you submit instead of God - doesn't exist because i've never seen him/her in person and because i prefer to blind myself from the facts by suppressing the truth, - you wouldn't accept it at all since he/she stamped a bunch of laws and demands recognition.
Know that God the Most High, Just, and Wise has more right to be obeyed.
if you think Donald Trump is The Most High; and Trump agrees - i'd say you're both highly intoxicated in some way or another.

Where I grew up leaving Christianity doesn't mean you lose your friends nor the affection of your family.
Actually doesn't affect your social life at all, everything continues as always.

That's not a valid argument which can justify an action at all, try saying that about your tribe in court - and your lawyer will claim you're a bit stupid - in your defence, and then you'll get evaluated for fitness to stand trial.

Doesn't change your moral values, they stay with you forever.

What? Rejecting the law?

I still respect religions and religious people as always, they are my friends and family.

you still respect other crooks and those who stray, and also law abiding citizens huh? Some are your friends and family too, do they help you from getting caught or something?

They didn't start telling me my opinion is no longer valid since I'm an Atheist now.

Well they should have shown you the correct path, and taught you to have some dignity by not becoming a worthless liar.
The judge would tell you that you're incorrect in your opinion in thinking it's ok to break the law, whilst having you punished -even if your mum doesn't.

No one has ever tell me that my "Morals" are no longer good enough because I'm an Atheist.

Don't lie, multiple people on this forum have told you, you'd do good to ponder on the reasoning.

Those attacks seem to come exclusively from Muslims.

Attacks? Playing the weak minded emotional card now are you?

You think I need to believe in God to understand Muslims and Islam ?

Well some do come to the truth of God after they see the reasoning of the messenger, and the undeniable and unique truth and justice of the correct path.

You're wrong,

yo shill, i told you that it is possible to come around to the truth from the bottom upwards, why are you being stupid and falsely second guessing people? Hasbara teach you no manners?

I have lived all my life among religious people.

Yeah, by the looks of it, the re-legion of submission to your leader (probably some corrupt and lying politician) corrupted you in that you keep lying and falsely slandering others to stay afloat.

I argue here just like I do with Christians, Jews and other Atheists, no difference.

Arguing to learn or confirm the just truth is a good thing, arguing to confuse people by continually lying, suppressing the facts which you know to be true, and purposefully pulling out the same debunked arguments whilst refusing to allow the people you are arguing with and attempting to demean -to view those arguments is a despicable perversion and a criminal trait..

It's you who presumes I'm an inferior destined to Hell Fire.

Again, attempts to emotionally manipulate readers, you sound like a nasal biotch.
If you repent to God and obey the law, you may be saved from hell fire - is that too difficult for you to accept?

Every time you lose an argument you're going to remind me that my morals are not valid.

Which standard do you measure those morals by?
We told you, morals are meant to be just, stable, and universally applicable -in order to be acceptable to any person with a sense of justice.

Who is the insecure, you or me ???

The one who continually lies to cover his weaknesses.

It's your house, feel free to close the door anytime you want.

The mods can be expected to be just - though human, i guess they would have wanted to close the door on you ages ago had it not been for the fact that they decided to humour you for argument's sake.

 

[Alamgir]

Your brain is too small to understand my worldview.

Ad hominem at it's finest!

Anyway, no, it clearly cannot be since I was also an Atheist for quite some time.

I have a much wider view of what is right and what is wrong than you.

You can't have an objective view of what's right and wrong, your views are based purely on your own subjective opinions, from an Atheistic perspective they are as valid as the morals of a serial killer or child molester. You cannot deny this.

You rely on an unproven imaginary figure who decided what is right and what is wrong for you more than 1400 years ago.

Not unproven, my belief is based on indisputable observations, but you won't accept it nor will you listen, you'll continue to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la", acting as if we don't have reasons for believing in Islam.

Your brain is just a waste of space

It's ironic how much you whine at us for getting offended too easily, when in this post you clearly seem very triggered just by being exposed to the facts.

I also highly doubt you've done anything of significant value with that brain of yours.

78% of all scientists in the world are Atheists. You should thank us for making this world better.

Many of which base their work on earlier discoveries made by Muslims. Don't forget that while you guys didn't even have soap, we were an intellectual powerhouse. Even now, we're not doing as bad in the field of science as many of you claim.

The prisons all over the world show Atheist are consistently under 0% of the total population.

Hahaha, and you said my brain is small!

And you are one the many who is ashamed of me revealing the injustices committed by people

You cannot use the term 'injustice' when you don't have an objective moral compass.

I don't need an extraterrestrial to tell me that killing is wrong.
I figured it out on my own.
Same with stealing, raping, slaving, oppressing, etc.

But that's only your subjective opinion, you have no objective authority to tell you those things are wrong (unlike people who believe in God).

Unlike you, I respect all religions and religious people

Hahaha, this post is enough proof that you clearly don't.

But thinking you know the truth doesn't give you the right to impose it on the rest of the people.

I never said it does.

That's what some people who share your same religion and "Objective Morality" have been trying to do all along.

They clearly can't share the same morals as me since I don't support their actions.

If you want talk about atrocities committed by Muslims, then I have every right to talk about atrocities committed by Atheists, e.g Communist violence.

 

[Raymann]

You can't have an objective view of what's right and wrong, your views are based purely on your own subjective opinions, from an Atheistic perspective they are as valid as the morals of a serial killer or child molester. You cannot deny this.

Ok, let's play in your own turf.
My morals are based on Christianity (I grew up Catholic), just like most of the western world.
But let's assume my morals all come from Social agreements (I obey the rules of the land unlike "serial killers or child molesters").
Yours come from an extraterrestrial (Allah) and therefore according to you they are "Objective and mine are Subjective"
Your morals are objective as long as they come from Allah but you also live by the morals of your prophet (pbuh), don't you???
He was a mortal (just like you and me) and therefore his morals are SUBJECTIVE, am I right ???
And using your own words these are as valid as what was it ... ???

Please explain.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Raymann,

I am not allowed to reply in the Sharia thread you started, so I have taken your quote from there......

Europe and America have been taking millions of Muslims who in some cases swim their way to the west

You have to ask yourself, what was the main cause of people becoming refugees, and the western world has to take much of the blame. Iraq was destabilised after the American led invasion, most of the refuges then fled to Syria which has also suffered.

It is estimated that over 11 million Iraqis are currently in need of humanitarian assistance. More than 1.5 million people have taken refuge in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, where one in every four is either a refugee or an internally displaced person.

https://www.google.com/search?num=5....64.psy-ab..0.27.2481...0i131k1.0.Wg4GkYa6uwk

America had no right to invade Iraq, the United Nations were still calling for diplomatic solutions which America disregarded. If America truly wants to rid the world of WMDs, it should clear its own back yard first.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric

 

[Ümit]

Ok, let's play in your own turf.
My morals are based on Christianity (I grew up Catholic), just like most of the western world.
But let's assume my morals all come from Social agreements (I obey the rules of the land unlike "serial killers or child molesters").
Yours come from an extraterrestrial (Allah) and therefore according to you they are "Objective and mine are Subjective"
Your morals are objective as long as they come from Allah but you also live by the morals of your prophet (pbuh), don't you???
He was a mortal (just like you and me) and therefore his morals are SUBJECTIVE, am I right ???
And using your own words these are as valid as what was it ... ???

Please explain.

No

first, Christianity and Islam have the same origin...so Christian morals should be not much different than Islamic morals.
second, Where do you think the morals of our prophet sas come from? It is the very same morals as from Allah.
Yes he was a mortal like you and me...but unlike you and me, the prophets have a direct and continuous connection with Allah.
If they make mistakes, they are corrected immediately.
Allah teaches us His morals by sending His prophets to us as role models.

And of course you could think of this on your own...but somehow you just want to argue...

 

[Raymann]

No

first, Christianity and Islam have the same origin...so Christian morals should be not much different than Islamic morals.
second, Where do you think the morals of our prophet sas come from? It is the very same morals as from Allah.
Yes he was a mortal like you and me...but unlike you and me, the prophets have a direct and continuous connection with Allah.
If they make mistakes, they are corrected immediately.
Allah teaches us His morals by sending His prophets to us as role models.

And of course you could think of this on your own...but somehow you just want to argue...

I fully understand what you're saying but the point Al Khorasani is making is that we (Atheists) don't have "Objective Morals" because we don't get our morals from God. Actually doesn't have to be God but any extraterrestrial would do as long as is not human from earth (Ask him about that stupid theory)
Human morals according to him are "subjective".
I'm explaining to him that morals coming from the prophet (pbuh) according to his own definition are therefore "SUBJECTIVE"
Let's see how he's going to get out of this one.

 

[Raymann]

America had no right to invade Iraq

I'm in no position to determine who is right and who is wrong and neither are you.
You can speculate all you want but don't ask me to participate in stupid back and forth discussions.
I prefer to think of solutions and live in harmony with the people around me unlike many religious people around here who can only think of revenge, an eye for an eye, you hit me first I'll hit you twice, etc.
It's a shame that the atheist in the forum is the most peaceful and forgiving.

 

[سيف الله]

I wish Muslims knew what Freedom of Speech really is
but I know there's no hope.

This thread isn't even about freedom of speech, its about Raymann getting on his soap box and preaching, then *shock* *horror* is astonished when he doesn't get his way.

 

[Ümit]

I fully understand what you're saying but the point Al Khorasani is making is that we (Atheists) don't have "Objective Morals" because we don't get our morals from God. Actually doesn't have to be God but any extraterrestrial would do as long as is not human from earth (Ask him about that stupid theory)
Human morals according to him are "subjective".
I'm explaining to him that morals coming from the prophet (pbuh) according to his own definition are therefore "SUBJECTIVE"
Let's see how he's going to get out of this one.

I DO understand what Al Khorasani is saying and I have to say that I agree with him. Where do morals come from? who decides what is good and what is wrong? Somehow, we know exactly what is right and what is wrong right? intuitively....well, that intuition is divine. God has given us the ability to distuinguish the right from the wrong. So, whether you believe or not believe in God, the origin of the very basic morals point to God. These basic morals can also be mentioned by prophets and in holy books to give them extra weight...so we do not only have our intuition to trust on.
Besides these basic morals, one can adopt other morals, depending on the environment and culture one lives in. and if the environment or culture is somehow wandered of the right path, then one can adopt faulty morals.
for instance homosexuality. The western world thinks about this as a sexual preference. homosexuality is not a sickness and cannot be cured...one is born homosexual or not...so he can do nothing about it and should be therefore legalized.
but then the dilemma pedophilia. this is also a sexual preference but somehow pedophiles are treated by the community as sick disgusting people who should be locked up forever...even though they have done nothing yet...see the difference in morals?
Both are sexual preferences...both can do nothing about it...both are just born with it...but one is said to be perfectly normal...and the other is sick and disgusting.
I am not defending pedophiles nor attacking homosexuals here...but I am just pointing out that something is horribly wrong with our morals here.

This is just an example...there are enough other morals in the western world which are conflicting with one and other...so who is going to decide which moral is good and which isn't? We have a problem there...that is what Al Khorasani meant.
In Islaam we have morals listed out for us which are good and which are wrong. those morals are absolute and objective. That is the benefit of religion, to make our lives easier.

 

[Abz2000]

I fully understand what you're saying but the point Al Khorasani is making is that we (Atheists) don't have "Objective Morals" because we don't get our morals from God. Actually doesn't have to be God but any extraterrestrial would do as long as is not human from earth (Ask him about that stupid theory)
Human morals according to him are "subjective".
I'm explaining to him that morals coming from the prophet (pbuh) according to his own definition are therefore "SUBJECTIVE"
Let's see how he's going to get out of this one.

Atheists get their morals from the rothschild family propaganda machine and from their corrupt puppet politicians who sell them out for a pittance and a few relatively low-paid boardroom consultancies and share options after retirement -to the usurious banks, weapons companies, and corrupt pharmaceutical companies -who in turn get their morals from satan who is an extraterrestrial jinn who provides nothing, threatens poverty, and commands faahishah (filthy abominations) in order to confuse people - and that's where the inspiration for the winking and nodding one eyed seal comes from.
Whereas Muslims get their morals from Allah :swt: who is not an extraterrestrial -but rather the Creator and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth Who guides to righteous conduct and encompasses the heavens and the earth.

You are obviously seeking to argue and engage others in frivolous argument without benefit and i'll simply read the responses of others to you - if they wish to bother responding that is.

 

[Alamgir]

My morals are based on Christianity (I grew up Catholic), just like most of the western world.

No they're not, as an Atheist you will pick and choose which parts of Christian morality you'd like to apply (e.g love thy neighbour), and which parts you wouldn't (e.g you won't enslave people). So it's still subject to your personal bias.

Your morals are objective as long as they come from Allah but you also live by the morals of your prophet (pbuh), don't you???
He was a mortal (just like you and me) and therefore his morals are SUBJECTIVE, am I right ???
And using your own words these are as valid as what was it ... ???

Please explain.

In terms of moral guidance, Rasulullah (Peace Be Upon Him) only spoke based upon what is considered Islamically correct and incorrect, his personal bias was not involved when it comes to things such as this which count as revelation.

We also believe that his personal morals would be perfectly in line with Islamic morals (he was one of God's chosen Prophets so you'd expect this). That's not to say he would be free from sin (the Prophets could still commit minor sins), but he would still recognise they were wrong and repent.

 

[Raymann]

My morals are based on Christianity (I grew up Catholic), just like most of the western world.



No they're not, as an Atheist you will pick and choose which parts of Christian morality you'd like to apply (e.g love thy neighbor), and which parts you wouldn't (e.g you won't enslave people). So it's still subject to your personal bias.

Isn't it what Muslims do ?? Pick and choose. Some join ISIS, some others Al Qaeda, some gang rape, some join grooming gangs.
Luckily most of them are moderate peaceful ones.

We also believe that his personal morals would be perfectly in line with Islamic morals (he was one of God's chosen Prophets so you'd expect this).

No, sorry. Morals coming from God are OBJECTIVE, morals that come from the prophet (pbuh), are SUBJECTIVE. He was a human.
Your own rules, you cannot cheat at your own game.
You wanted to play a stupid game? Guess what? You lost