Gaza War

[abumusa]

Listen i find it hard to tell people under occupation for over 5o years not to this and that.

Also Skywalker the Quran asks us to give them benefit of doubt.

So dont be hasty with your "im not allied with them" stuff.

Not that they will lose sleep over it

 

[Keltoi]

I never said that the Brotherhood is the best, nor did I say that I would ally myself with them, however, the Brotherhood is not responsible for all the actions of Hamas. It's my belief that they support them mainly for their ideals. How do we know that they fully support their methods and every single attack they've done?

Secondly, Hamas is NOT just a military wing. This is from Wikipedia:

"Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Looks like they took a page out of Hezbollah's playbook. Make the local population dependant on you, and use them to shield themselves when the inevitable retaliation occurs. Not saying many of these programs aren't done from a charitable standpoint, but the end result is the same.

 

[abumusa]

According to the above statement, the following must be considered cowards & dispicable, also:

1. The many European reistance organizations who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazis.

2. Our OSS & SOE, who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazi's.

3. Merrills Marauders, who used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese in South East Asia.

4. Our own Special Operators (Rangers, Green Berets, Navy Seals, Delta Force), the SAS/SBS/Royal marine Commandos, etc, who were trained in and train forces of friendly nations in guerrilla warfare.

5. The American & Philippino troops who stayed behind and used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese occupation of the Philippines.

6. Our founding fathers who used guerrilla warfare against the Bristish Empire.

7. Our CIA paramilitary teams who entered Afghanistan & Iraq.

8. The Jews of pre-1948 Israeli independence who used guerrilla tactics against the British Mandate & the Palestinians.

MTAFFI - No response to this?

Brother Zman just showed American Hypocrisy

 

[Skywalker]

Looks like they took a page out of Hezbollah's playbook. Make the local population dependant on you, and use them to shield themselves when the inevitable retaliation occurs. Not saying many of these programs aren't done from a charitable standpoint, but the end result is the same.

Let's say that they providing the population with food and services but have their own agenda. So what? Don't all governments in the world do this? At least Hamas are upfront about it -- they don't want Israel to exist, and they want the people that they are helping to help them in the fight. Maybe their upfrontness is their undoing in this case, but nevertheless people are receiving aid from someone. Not that I support most of their military activities but at least they're helping the people, which like I said before makes me give them a whole lot of respect more than organizations like Al Qa3da.

Here's a question to those opposed to Hamas: if they didn't fire another kassam rocket and stopped all suicide bombings, would your view of them remain the same or would it differ and how?

 

[MTAFFI]

According to the above statement, the following must be considered cowards & dispicable, also:

1. The many European reistance organizations who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazis.

2. Our OSS & SOE, who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazi's.

3. Merrills Marauders, who used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese in South East Asia.

4. Our own Special Operators (Rangers, Green Berets, Navy Seals, Delta Force), the SAS/SBS/Royal marine Commandos, etc, who were trained in and train forces of friendly nations in guerrilla warfare.

5. The American & Philippino troops who stayed behind and used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese occupation of the Philippines.

6. Our founding fathers who used guerrilla warfare against the Bristish Empire.

7. Our CIA paramilitary teams who entered Afghanistan & Iraq.

8. The Jews of pre-1948 Israeli independence who used guerrilla tactics against the British Mandate & the Palestinians.

The difference with all of these and the people that are fighting in Iraq and Afghan is simple, these people that you are speaking of did not attack at the cost of civilian lives, and in most cases they were groups of fighters the whole war wasnt fought on the premise of anonymously blowing yourself up in a group of people to kill one soldier. Let me be more descript for you when I say guerrilla warefare, the TYPE of guerrilla warefare that is used in Iraq, Afghan and Palestine is cowardly, on a daily basis civilian nearly several dozen lives are lost because of the way it is fought by the cowards and there is no honor in that.

 

[MTAFFI]

How many "innocent" people in the Pentagon?

how about the janitors, the receptionists, the typists, and basically anyone else who is just performing a job rather than making the decisions that upset people, do you know of one high level or high ranking official that actually died at the pentagon that day? It was the secretaries that paid the price

 

[Skywalker]

Sorry I didn't notice this...

Listen i find it hard to tell people under occupation for over 5o years not to this and that.

Also Skywalker the Quran asks us to give them benefit of doubt.

So dont be hasty with your "im not allied with them" stuff.

Not that they will lose sleep over it

Don't worry bro, I didn't mean to imply that I would never join them under any circumstance, but that I wouldn't be hasty in joining them either. Before joining a group (if ever), I'd like to know their goals, their ideals, their actions, and their history. If one of those is not Islamic, for example sending out suicide bombers against civilians, I think it would actually be a sin to ally yourself with them. Allahu 3alam.

 

[abumusa]

how about the janitors, the receptionists, the typists, and basically anyone else who is just performing a job rather than making the decisions that upset people, do you know of one high level or high ranking official that actually died at the pentagon that day? It was the secretaries that paid the price

Well first of all i do not support any activities against innocent people. Simply im discussing a topic. i.e. debate.

For this questions its a etiquette of war unfortunately. If you agree there are two enemies and one enemy strikes at anothers military HQ - that's surely a valid target under Shariah terms (the law of one side).

The same logic applies to the innocent people in that medical factory (Sudan), or the carpet bombing (Afghanistan). Have you ever seen a cluster bomb in action? These american bombs destroy whole villages for goodness sake.

Collateral damage? One rule for them another for us!

"We have sent down to you the message that you may explain clearly to people what has been sent to them, and that they think over it. " [al-Qur'âan 16:44]

 

[MTAFFI]

Well first of all i do not support any activities against innocent people. Simply im discussing a topic. i.e. debate.

For this questions its a etiquette of war unfortunately. If you agree there are two enemies and one enemy strikes at anothers military HQ - that's surely a valid target under Shariah terms (the law of one side).

The same logic applies to the innocent people in that medical factory (Sudan), or the carpet bombing (Afghanistan). Have you ever seen a cluster bomb in action? These american bombs destroy whole villages for goodness sake.

Collateral damage? One rule for them another for us!

"We have sent down to you the message that you may explain clearly to people what has been sent to them, and that they think over it. " [al-Qur'âan 16:44]

War is a messy thing, and there is really no good that can come of it. As for the pentagon, it is a far better target than say the twin towers at least it is an attack like you said on a "military" headquarters, but I still dont see the benefit in that attack. To me war should be fought on a battlefield not in peoples homes and place of work. Casualties are to be expected in war, you cannot condemn every accidental civilian death that is caused by war, the thing that bothers me is the huge number of civilians that are happening. Fighting in city streets, blowing up markets, ramming planes into buildings, launching rockets at just random targets, destroying mosques or places of worship these things are not attacks against another country and it government or foreign policies, these area attacks against the people of that country. It breeds incredible quantities of hatred, Islam is a wonderful religion and the Quran contains a wealth of knowledge, but because of the way this war has been waged by the so called "Militant Islam" groups has spawned hatred for Muslims, whereas if these groups fought with bravery and dignity (ie only killed, or only tried to kill military personel) they would get a whole other image and wouldnt be so widely hated. For every attack made on civilian targets, it just makes those who do it look more and more evil, and since they claim everything they do is based on their religion, the image of Islam becomes tarnished with them

 

[abumusa]

whereas if these groups fought with bravery and dignity (ie only killed, or only tried to kill military personel) they would get a whole other image

Many do this even until today. Dont let the media magnify one or two acts by inidivduals.

Look how Beslan disgraced Chechnya. The Mujahideen fight russian oopression daily for years yet after Beslan they have been maligned and tarnished.

America cannot be completely judged as evil based on Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo bay (drops in ocean) then surely the same applies both ways?

 

[MTAFFI]

Many do this even until today. Dont let the media magnify one or two acts by inidivduals.

Look how Beslan disgraced Chechnya. The Mujahideen fight russian oopression daily for years yet after Beslan they have been maligned and tarnished.

America cannot be completely judged as evil based on Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo bay (drops in ocean) then surely the same applies both ways?

It absolutely is a two way street, the actions of a few can absolutely not be used to judge a country or a religion as a whole. However with groups like Al-Qaeda and their subsidiaries, if you will, commit atrocities daily, it is not a few actions it is a daily occurance. I do not even associate them with Islam anymore even though most ignorant people would since they use their religion to justify their violence, which is what the problem is... The average Joe doesnt know or try to distinguish the difference, he hears 3 things, Middle east, Al Qaeda and Muslim.

But as for Muslims, well true Muslims do not behave as Hamas or Al-Qaeda do, true Muslims follow the Quran and its teachings and live in peace with the rest of the world. True Muslims can see the obvious lack of guidance that these groups have and how far they have strayed from the very beliefs they claim they are trying to "protect"

 

[abumusa]

I agree to a point BUT:

"Concerning nonviolence, it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks." X

 

[MTAFFI]

I agree to a point BUT:

"Concerning nonviolence, it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks." X

No doubt

But at this point, in this part of the world, who really knows who is on offense or defense? Palestine launches rockets Israel retaliates, Israel bulldozes houses, Palestine retaliates. The war has gone on for so long, I dont think there is really an offensive or defensive side, I think they both just take whatever chance they can get to kill the other.

With that said I will say I havent heard of any Israeli attacks since all this has been going on, and that may have something to do with the lack of mortar attacks since the Palestinians have been preoccupied.

 

[abumusa]

How can you compare the losses on both sides?

Has anybody seen Gaza on a map compared to Israel? Then think of the populations.

Its a modern day concentration camp.

 

[wilberhum]

How can you compare the losses on both sides?

Has anybody seen Gaza on a map compared to Israel? Then think of the populations.

Its a modern day concentration camp.

Do you want to compare losses and map size, or do you want peace?

 

[Skywalker]

Haha, I beat MTAFFI to it!!!

By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Al-Qaida was looming increasingly large in Hamas-ruled Gaza on Monday: The al-Qaida-inspired kidnappers of a BBC journalist released their captive's anguished plea, while the terror network's deputy chief urged Muslims everywhere to back Hamas with weapons, money and attacks on Israeli and U.S. targets.

Al-Qaida's clearest overture yet put Hamas in a bind. Hamas is in urgent need of outside help to provide for Gaza's 1.4 million Palestinians, following its mid-June takeover of the territory. Yet Hamas would deepen its international isolation, burn bridges to much of the Arab world and lose more popular support at home if it forms an open alliance with al-Qaida.

Hamas leaders suggested they will steer clear of al-Qaida, in line with the movement's long-standing position to focus on the conflict with Israel and not to join an international jihad, or holy war (looks like someone doesn't have their Islamic definitions down right...). Al-Qaida "is not the frame of reference for Hamas," said a senior Hamas official, Ahmed Yousef. "We have our own Muslim scholars, political leaders and military commanders who give us a strategy on how to deal with the (Israeli) occupation." (I hope they stick to this...)

Al-Qaida's presence in the Palestinian territories has been a subject of intense speculation since the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States (what a surprise). Palestinian intelligence officials believe the group has formed some sleeper cells in Gaza and suspect possible al-Qaida involvement in several spectacular attacks on Palestinian security chiefs since 2004.

As early as 2003, an Israeli military court sentenced a Gaza man to 27 years in prison on charges he was recruited by al-Qaida in Afghanistan to form a network in the Palestinian territories.

Several al-Qaida-inspired groups have sprung up, including the so-called Army of Islam, which seized BBC journalist Alan Johnston in March (it's also worth mentioning that one of the first things that Hamas said when they took over Gaza was that they were planning on negotiating with this group to accelerate Alan's release) and was also involved in the capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit a year ago. Another group, the Sword of Islamic Justice, has bombed dozens of Internet and music shops to halt what it said was the spread of corrupt Western culture.

It appears these local groups, which have adopted al-Qaida jargon and symbols, are angling for support from al-Qaida, rather than being directed by it. "Most of the fighters (in Gaza) are local people who identify with al-Qaida, as opposed to real al-Qaida operatives, like we see in Iraq," said Hillel Frisch, an Israeli counterterrorism expert.

The groups consist largely of former Hamas followers, who broke away when Hamas started trying to transform itself into a political party and was no longer deemed radical enough. (this obviously means that Hamas does not share Al Qa3da's ideaology, but people fall into their traps all the time. Vengeance, lack of Islamic guidance, all these things contribute to people's fall to ... the Dark Side if you will )

In Paris, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the response to al-Qaida is to back moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who is locked in a power struggle with Hamas, and to send humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. "Extremism in the Middle East, and unfortunately in the Palestinian territories continues, and extremists link up with extremists," she said. (Typical, showing no discrimination)

In Johnston's case, the conflicting interests of Hamas and the Army of Islam became apparent this month. Hamas was pressing for Johnston's quick release, to try to reassure the international community after the Gaza takeover that it can rule and restore stability (see, told ya!). However, the kidnappers held out for assurances that they won't have to disarm after they free the journalist.

The kidnappers released a video showing Johnston wearing what he described as a harness of explosives strapped to his body, of the type used by suicide bombers. (Oh yeah, that's real Islamic...:?)

"Captors tell me that very promising negotiations were ruined when the Hamas movement and the British government decided to press for a military solution to this kidnapping," Johnston says in the recording, looking nervous and under stress.

"And the situation is now very serious, as you can see," he said, appealing to Britain and Hamas to resume negotiations.

Several hours later, the captors of Shalit released an audio message to mark the anniversary of his seizure at an army post near Gaza. Shalit appealed to the Israeli government to do more to win his freedom, saying his health is deteriorating (that wouldn't be the case if he was is the hands of real Muslims). Egyptian-brokered negotiations over Shalit's release have broken down repeatedly.

The audio was posted on the Web site of the Hamas military wing, affirming that Hamas is the lead group among the kidnappers. However, the Army of Islam would have any say in any possible deal for Shalit's release.

Al-Qaida has repeatedly expressed support for the Palestinians, but Monday's audio by its deputy chief, Ayman al-Zawahri, was unusual because he offered practical assistance, and Hamas for the first time was in a position to seriously consider it. (don't do it!!)

"Provide them (Hamas) with money, do your best to get it there, break the siege imposed on them by crusaders and Arab leader traitors," said al-Zawahri, who is Osama bin Laden's top deputy, addressing Muslims around the world. "Facilitate weapons smuggling from neighboring countries."

"We can support them by targeting the crusader and Zionist interest wherever we can," al-Zawahri said. (The Crusades were about 800 years ago, where's he been?)

His message appeared aimed at exploiting Hamas' gains and could fuel fears among Arab countries that Gaza will become a breeding ground for armed extremists.

However, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri suggested that his group values its relations with the Arab world more than anything al-Qaida could offer. "In Hamas, we are concerned to have good relations with all Arab and Muslim powers, regardless of how close or far away we are in our own programs," he said.

Still, quiet cooperation between some Gaza militants and al-Qaida is increasingly possible. Smuggling tunnels run under the Gaza-Egypt border, and al-Zawahri specifically called on Bedouins in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula — implicated in three major attacks since 2004 and heavily involved in smuggling — to help Hamas.

Interesting...

 

[abumusa]

Do you want to compare losses and map size, or do you want peace?

"You can’t separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." X

 

[wilberhum]

"You can’t separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." X

Oh so true. Something we totally agree on. :thumbs_up
As you said "You can’t separate peace from freedom". The way to freedom is peace.

 

[abumusa]

Yes we agree

 

[Zman]

The way to freedom is peace.

That wasn't the path chosen by our founding fathers, nor bt the Jews when they took Palestine, nor the European's who were under Nazi occupation, etc.

Unfortunately, one of the major tennets of international affairs is that "diplomacy is for the weak," and "the powerful take by force from the weak,"or "don't ask for what you cannot take."

In an ideal world, your statement would have been great, but, this isn't a ideal world...