Gaza War

[Sami Zaatari]

Could you provide some facts or evidence to support your opinion(s)? To label someone a traitor is a huge thing, and should not be taken lightly, nor should the word 'traitor' be used lightly.

I noticed Hamas aren't very pro-progess either. When questioned about some of their actions on Hard Talk on BBC, one of the Hamas representatives couldn't answer a single question directly.

I think Palestinians need to understand that they currently don't have the power to topple Israel. Once they understand that, things can change for the better. In my opinion anyways.

fatah is recieving support from the USA and israel, if thats not being traitors then what is? if we replaced fatah with maronite christians in lebanon there would be no doubt or debate about being a traitor, and this is exactly what the maronites in lebanon did! hence they are no different. number 2, fatah started this problem because of their own stupid greediness of wanting power, hamas didnt start the fight, fatah did, they came threatening to make new elections out of no where acting as if they are a big bully when infact they arent, hamas are much more motivated then fatah and have the wide support. u can bet that israel is secretly helping fatah with inteligance info etc.

and whats pro-progress? recognizing israels right to exist? hamas arent a secular group, they are an Islamic group, so hence bring me one proof from shariah that says when a non muslim comes and steals your land, kills you, and kicks you out that you must make peace with them and sit down and recognize their right to exist. Islam says otherwise, it says you can make jihad to defend your land and bring it back, not only that, israel hasnt only stolen land, they occupy our third holiest site hence it becomes obligatory for those muslims to fight until its liberated, hence what is pro-progress? im assuming pro-progress is selling yourself out to recognize the right of a thief and murderor?!!!!!!!!! your **** right hamas isnt pro-progress, because in todays world pro-progress for muslims means leaving Islam and bowing to the western powers, thats what you call pro-progress today, but wanting to stick to Islam and sharia is called backwardness!

as for the palestinians not being able to defeat israel, says who? such comments are made by people who have weak emaan (faith). are you saying israel is more powerful than Allah? if muslims fight israel with true sincerity for Allah not even israel and usa with all its nukes can defeat you even if you were carrying sticks! and the Quran even affirms this, that if you fight sincerly for Allah, even against a stronger and mightier opponent who outnumbers you you will still win! and this is the problem with us muslims today, and why were not winning, its because our faith is weak, we think that israel and usa are soooooooo powerful that we get scared of them (not me that is) when you should only fear Allah and have faith in him and his power which he affirms for himself.

why do you think the early muslims who were outnumbered by 10-1 always managed to defeat the large persian armies combined with the byzantines, and etc etc, it was because they had true faith, they werent blind and they didnt give in to dillusion that an enemy is so strong you cant fight him because he will simply crush us, nop they had true and strong faith in Allah hence they always won. but today we dont have this, neither did we in the 60's or 70's, we always lost to israel before why? because we fought under the banner of nationalism, which is fighting for someone other than Allah! no wonder we lost in 6 days and got humiliated, Allah will do that to us if we turn our back on him.

thirdly, when the prophet began fighting back the pagans, he was in no shape to fight them, he was outnumbered, didnt have good equipment compared to theirs, and not only that the quraysh had many many horses compared to the muslims who only had 2! hence if we want to use the logic that we cant fight someone because they are much stronger and better equiped then us then this would mean the prophet should have never fought then! but he did fight them, because Allah was on the side of the muslims, and the muslims had faith and completly believed that Allah was supporting them hence they did not fear the pagans might, and lo and behold the pagans were easily defeated in the first battle. the muslims lost in the second battle, why? because they disobeyed god and we lost! you see? Allah has set examples for us from 1400 years ago! that if you have faith and strong faith in Allah, knowing he will help you, then you shall win i.e. battle of badr, however so if you disobey Allah, lose obediance, etc then you shall lose i.e. battle of uhud.

so palestinians should never give in, they should perhaps make a 20 year truce after a palestinian state is made, so they can regroup, train, get stronger, just like the muslims did after the treaty of hudaybiyah, the muslims were 700 in number when the treaty was made, in 2 years they were 10000 and easily took back makkah without shedding of blood. but however so the muslims regrouped and made a treaty ONLY AFTER they had a state of their own in Madinah, muslims in palestine dont even have a state, hence any question of a truce or peace treaty when they have no stable state of their own is futile and useless. this is what you call pro-progress, pro-progress isnt making peace with israel when they wont hand you a palestinian state, what kind of nonsense is that? thats just pro-israel to give them more time to build more settlements in the west bank!

 

[Keltoi]

lol...so Fatah are traitors for taking financial assistance from the U.S.? Who is the bigger traitor, those who bring in money to help the Palestinian people, or those who fire rockets and run away when the Israeli military comes to town? Hamas has done nothing but bring destruction and fear to their own people.

 

[Sami Zaatari]

lol...so Fatah are traitors for taking financial assistance from the U.S.? Who is the bigger traitor, those who bring in money to help the Palestinian people, or those who fire rockets and run away when the Israeli military comes to town? Hamas has done nothing but bring destruction and fear to their own people.

lol i love it when ppl play stupid, and lie so blatantly like you are doing now.

fatah does not only recieve financial backing from the US, fatah are reciving money and arms from the us, and not only that, the finance being given by the us is primarily for arms not for the good of the ppl! it doesnt even end there, there is some minimal training done as well, so therefore indeed they are traitors, getting guns from the americans, and money from the americans to buy guns, so they can turn it on their own ppl, and then when hamas responds to defend itself hamas all of a sudden becomes the bad guy and all chaos is attributed to them when infact all chaos and violence is firmly rooted by the US and Israelis who are using fatah as a pawn. it is abbas and his corrupt regime with the backing of the US who threatened to make new elections which started this whole problem. as i said, fatah are your typical tyranical arab regime, the us wants a palestinian state run by another puppet arab goverment like they have in egypt and many other arab states, with hamas they wont get that, hence they created this civil conflict to remove hamas so they can install a puppet regime, too bad for them hamas wont be defeated rather fatah will.

 

[Keltoi]

lol i love it when ppl play stupid, and lie so blatantly like you are doing now.

fatah does not only recieve financial backing from the US, fatah are reciving money and arms from the us, and not only that, the finance being given by the us is primarily for arms not for the good of the ppl! it doesnt even end there, there is some minimal training done as well, so therefore indeed they are traitors, getting guns from the americans, and money from the americans to buy guns, so they can turn it on their own ppl, and then when hamas responds to defend itself hamas all of a sudden becomes the bad guy and all chaos is attributed to them when infact all chaos and violence is firmly rooted by the US and Israelis who are using fatah as a pawn. it is abbas and his corrupt regime with the backing of the US who threatened to make new elections which started this whole problem. as i said, fatah are your typical tyranical arab regime, the us wants a palestinian state run by another puppet arab goverment like they have in egypt and many other arab states, with hamas they wont get that, hence they created this civil conflict to remove hamas so they can install a puppet regime, too bad for them hamas wont be defeated rather fatah will.

Care to supply some kind of source for any of this? Didn't think so. For those who actually want a factual breakdown of U.S assistance to the Palestinians, this article gives a good overview of the humanitiarian aid that is going to the Palestinians at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer. Not that I have a problem with it.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/29/africa/ME-GEN-Palestinians-US-Aid.php

 

[Skywalker]

remember our mission, to justify our land in palestain/israel, and do what it needs to be done to get OUR land back!

Therefore:

the muslims there are still and will always fight untill the final blood of a muslim remains, to honour islam, and themselves, jihad is ALLOWED, and will always be used whenever, because that is our land, and we are permissable to fight for our own land!

Here's the thing though, united jihad is allowed, but it's not supposed to be carried out brainlessly. You and I and the Palestinians know full well that it's not Israel that they're fighting. They're fighting them along with the world's superpowers at their side while every single Arab nation has turned their backs on them. This is not 10 to 1 odds anymore. The Palestinians have no weapons (in comparison to Israel) and more importantly currently they have no unity. Practically speaking, they can't win. Nobody is paying attention to their cries for help anymore, now they're being accused of victimizing themselves thus slowing progress, and eventually they will appear as the bad guys in this whole fiasco.

Now I'm not saying give up, far from it actually. What I'm saying is be SMART. Allah separated us from animals by giving us intelligence. Launching rockets at Israeli towns and killing one or two civilans in the process does not demostrate our ability to use our brains.

However i totally disagree.

Allah tells us to defend our lands, amongest our wealth, honour, familly.

How can ou expect us to stand down?

Well to each his own opinion, but brute force is NOT the answer in this conflict unless they have SIGNIFICANT firepower to back that up. And I don't mean a few thousand kassam rockets.

fatah is recieving support from the USA and israel, if thats not being traitors then what is? if we replaced fatah with maronite christians in lebanon there would be no doubt or debate about being a traitor, and this is exactly what the maronites in lebanon did! hence they are no different. number 2, fatah started this problem because of their own stupid greediness of wanting power, hamas didnt start the fight, fatah did, they came threatening to make new elections out of no where acting as if they are a big bully when infact they arent, hamas are much more motivated then fatah and have the wide support. u can bet that israel is secretly helping fatah with inteligance info etc.

Do you have proof of these claims? Like I said, labelling someone a traitor needs a lot of proof, and suspicion, no matter how strong, does count for squat in this world if you don't have proof. Accusing someone of something without proof is zhulm.

and whats pro-progress? recognizing israels right to exist?

Heck no. But let's say they did, wouldn't that theoretically provide for a period of relative stability, in which the Palestinians could properly asess and re-evaluate the situation, which could give them insight into how to deal with the situation better? I mean what room is there to think when you have constant violence and enormous pressure on the government? How can anybody make WISE decisions in that kind of environment?

Hypothetically speaking, what would be wrong with temporarily recognizing Israel's right to exist, and then coming back in a few decades and taking your land back the way they took it from you?

Islam says otherwise, it says you can make jihad to defend your land and bring it back, not only that, israel hasnt only stolen land, they occupy our third holiest site hence it becomes obligatory for those muslims to fight until its liberated, hence what is pro-progress?

So you think launching rockets once a week is going to force Israel to...collapse? If not, then how do you think they could achieve victory over Israel and flush their government out? I'd really like to hear your suggestions.

your **** right hamas isnt pro-progress, because in todays world pro-progress for muslims means leaving Islam and bowing to the western powers, thats what you call pro-progress today, but wanting to stick to Islam and sharia is called backwardness!

Pro-progress for some misguided people might mean leaving Islam behind, but to the educated ones, they know that the best way forward culturally is to go back. Nevetheless, we're not talking about etiquette and morals here, we're talking about the salvation and the continuation of existance of the Palestinian people. Pro-progress in this case is their salvation, as well as a SMART way of getting the best out of the situation with Israel. Believe me when I tell you, launching rockets into their settlements is not going to give you that.

as for the palestinians not being able to defeat israel, says who? such comments are made by people who have weak emaan (faith). are you saying israel is more powerful than Allah?

Firstly, such comments are made by people who are sick and don't want to take their medicine because of their faith that Allah will cure them. Here's a newsflash, why should Allah help you if you don't want to help yourself? Why would He help you if you're committing suicide and treating the life that He gave you with no respect? Allah has the power to do ANYTHING, we know that, but why should He get involved in the conflicts that we ourselves have the capacity to get out of? Don't we have His Book and His Prophet (pbuh) as guidance? Don't we have the intellect that He gave us? Then why aren't we doing anything about our situation and constantly begging Him to help us? He DID help us! He gave us those gifts, and many others so long ago...it's our own fault that we don't know how to use them.

Secondly, please refrain from suggesting that your iman is stronger than that of other memebers of this forum or in this world actually, because you don't know that, only Allah does, and to use this in an argument, especially against a brother Muslim is not that cool.

and this is the problem with us muslims today, and why were not winning, its because our faith is weak, we think that israel and usa are soooooooo powerful that we get scared of them (not me that is) when you should only fear Allah and have faith in him and his power which he affirms for himself.

That's all true our faith is week and maybe you're the most faithful one among us, Allahu 3alam, but isn't using your brain part of your faith? I mean, the people that defended themselves from attacks during the times of the Prophet (pbuh), they HAD to win if Islam was going to spread. It's Allah's divine destiny. That doesn't mean that we should fight recklessly and irresponsibly now.

Anyways, I'll write more on the subject soon insha-Allah cuz I gotta run now.

 

[MTAFFI]

Here's the thing though, united jihad is allowed, but it's not supposed to be carried out brainlessly. You and I and the Palestinians know full well that it's not Israel that they're fighting. They're fighting them along with the world's superpowers at their side while every single Arab nation has turned their backs on them. This is not 10 to 1 odds anymore. The Palestinians have no weapons (in comparison to Israel) and more importantly currently they have no unity. Practically speaking, they can't win. Nobody is paying attention to their cries for help anymore, now they're being accused of victimizing themselves thus slowing progress, and eventually they will appear as the bad guys in this whole fiasco.

Now I'm not saying give up, far from it actually. What I'm saying is be SMART. Allah separated us from animals by giving us intelligence. Launching rockets at Israeli towns and killing one or two civilans in the process does not demostrate our ability to use our brains.


Well to each his own opinion, but brute force is NOT the answer in this conflict unless they have SIGNIFICANT firepower to back that up. And I don't mean a few thousand kassam rockets.


Do you have proof of these claims? Like I said, labelling someone a traitor needs a lot of proof, and suspicion, no matter how strong, does count for squat in this world if you don't have proof. Accusing someone of something without proof is zhulm.


Heck no. But let's say they did, wouldn't that theoretically provide for a period of relative stability, in which the Palestinians could properly asess and re-evaluate the situation, which could give them insight into how to deal with the situation better? I mean what room is there to think when you have constant violence and enormous pressure on the government? How can anybody make WISE decisions in that kind of environment?

Hypothetically speaking, what would be wrong with temporarily recognizing Israel's right to exist, and then coming back in a few decades and taking your land back the way they took it from you?


So you think launching rockets once a week is going to force Israel to...collapse? If not, then how do you think they could achieve victory over Israel and flush their government out? I'd really like to hear your suggestions.


Pro-progress for some misguided people might mean leaving Islam behind, but to the educated ones, they know that the best way forward culturally is to go back. Nevetheless, we're not talking about etiquette and morals here, we're talking about the salvation and the continuation of existance of the Palestinian people. Pro-progress in this case is their salvation, as well as a SMART way of getting the best out of the situation with Israel. Believe me when I tell you, launching rockets into their settlements is not going to give you that.


Firstly, such comments are made by people who are sick and don't want to take their medicine because of their faith that Allah will cure them. Here's a newsflash, why should Allah help you if you don't want to help yourself? Why would He help you if you're committing suicide and treating the life that He gave you with no respect? Allah has the power to do ANYTHING, we know that, but why should He get involved in the conflicts that we ourselves have the capacity to get out of? Don't we have His Book and His Prophet (pbuh) as guidance? Don't we have the intellect that He gave us? Then why aren't we doing anything about our situation and constantly begging Him to help us? He DID help us! He gave us those gifts, and many others so long ago...it's our own fault that we don't know how to use them.

Secondly, please refrain from suggesting that your iman is stronger than that of other memebers of this forum or in this world actually, because you don't know that, only Allah does, and to use this in an argument, especially against a brother Muslim is not that cool.


That's all true our faith is week and maybe you're the most faithful one among us, Allahu 3alam, but isn't using your brain part of your faith? I mean, the people that defended themselves from attacks during the times of the Prophet (pbuh), they HAD to win if Islam was going to spread. It's Allah's divine destiny. That doesn't mean that we should fight recklessly and irresponsibly now.

Anyways, I'll write more on the subject soon insha-Allah cuz I gotta run now.

One of the best posts I have seen on this thread

 

[Skywalker]

To pick up where I left off...

because we fought under the banner of nationalism, which is fighting for someone other than Allah! no wonder we lost in 6 days and got humiliated, Allah will do that to us if we turn our back on him.

I agree that nationalism is a scourge and personally can't stand it because I've seen so much suffering around me because of it. It's true that the Palestinians need to re-evaluate things, who and what they're fighting for for example, but now after almost 50 years of conflict, don't you think it's time that they re-evaluated HOW they're fighting as well? Either way, all Muslims around the world need to make Allah their priority, not just the Palestinians, but you're not gonna get this by constantly fighting against impossible odds, but by educating the youth about Allah as well as the world around them. The youth are the future because the world is not what it was 1400 years ago, and them along with Allah's inspiration and help, would be able to end this thing, not the current leaders who seem to just live in the past instead of learning from it in making a better tomorrow. Allah knows best anyway, I'm just stating my humble opinion. If you see a flaw in what I'm saying feel free to point it out.

Allah has set examples for us from 1400 years ago! that if you have faith and strong faith in Allah, knowing he will help you, then you shall win i.e. battle of badr, however so if you disobey Allah, lose obediance, etc then you shall lose i.e. battle of uhud.

I agree with that with the addition that you also help yourself instead of waiting for help. We don't know what Allah's destiny for us or the Palestinians is. It might be that Palestine takes over Israel and creates the first pure Sharia country in the world, or that Palestine is totally eradicated and ceases to exist. Do you know God's destiny for us? Since we don't, then we have to go with what we have...our brains and our faith. If all we're doing by attacking Israel is making things worse, logic suggests that we find a different way of dealing with things.

so palestinians should never give in, they should perhaps make a 20 year truce after a palestinian state is made, so they can regroup, train, get stronger, just like the muslims did after the treaty of hudaybiyah, the muslims were 700 in number when the treaty was made, in 2 years they were 10000 and easily took back makkah without shedding of blood. but however so the muslims regrouped and made a treaty ONLY AFTER they had a state of their own in Madinah, muslims in palestine dont even have a state, hence any question of a truce or peace treaty when they have no stable state of their own is futile and useless. this is what you call pro-progress, pro-progress isnt making peace with israel when they wont hand you a palestinian state, what kind of nonsense is that? thats just pro-israel to give them more time to build more settlements in the west bank!

That's not much different than what I said, and I don't know where you get the idea that I think that pro-progress is necessarily pro-Israel. I'm against Israel and what it stands for, but I'm also pro-peace and pro-logic. I think the Palestinians have already forgotten what it's like to live a life of peace and security. Do you think that if they took over Israel somehow that they would create a peaceful and secure country for themselves? Why not calm things down for a while, improve their economy, build themselves up as a nation, make allies with the countries around them while also creating peace in the region...and then if Allah wills it, they might one day be strong enough to take back what was taken from them, while actually being in the state of mind to create a peaceful society? Help themselves first, boost their faith in Allah, educate their people, and victory could come when they least expect it.

If you've watched Star Wars Episode 1, you'd notice that it's almost a metaphor for what's happening with Israel and Palestine...and in the movie Palestine wins. But did they do it with brute force?? No. They made allies, they made a 'well-conceived plan', and at the end they won and got their planet back. In the movie they had Anakin Skywalker fly into the droid control ship and blow it up almost miraculously, which saved the day, and which to me is a metaphor for God's intervention. But does that mean that they DEPENDED on the miracle of Anakin flying in and destroying it? No, they did their part in creating a plan and executing it, and the divine intevention came on its own...with Anakin pushing random buttons inside the ship only to destroy the baddies ;D Think about it...

Wow, either George Lucas is a genius or that's one heck of a coincidence

 

[Zman]

/Peace To All

Analysis: Hamas Takeover In Gaza Would Short-Circuit US Plans

By Adam Entous
Wed 13 Jun 2007 19:14:55 BST
Reuters

JERUSALEM, June 13 (Reuters) - A Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip would deal a blow to a U.S. peace push founded on the premise Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas would be capable of reining in militants and Israel would embrace him as a partner.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and other senior officials said a Hamas victory in factional fighting against Abbas's secular Fatah movement would cast doubt on Abbas's ability to deliver on any agreements over a Palestinian state.

While warning of the risk of allowing Hamas to establish its own Iranian-backed mini-state on Israel's southern border, some Israeli officials said the deteriorating situation could be used by the Jewish state as leverage to get major European and Arab powers to intervene with a large international force in Gaza.

By backing calls for an international deployment that he knows few countries are clamouring to join, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert may merely be laying the ground work for Israel to act unilaterally against Hamas militants in an enclave from which Israel withdrew occupying troops in 2005, the officials said.

A Hamas victory would also seem to dash Bush administration hopes that Abbas and his forces would be able to exercise security control over Gaza, a key Israeli condition for resuming serious peace negotiations.

Some Israeli and Western officials saw the Hamas-led assault as a pre-emptive strike against U.S. plans to bolster Abbas's forces for a planned crackdown on cross-border rocket attacks into Israel and smuggling of weaponry to militant groups.

U.S. President George W. Bush, who hopes for progress in his last year and half in office, will meet Olmert in Washington next week.

"If Hamas takes control of Gaza, this will be significant, not only for what happens in Gaza, but for the ability to reach agreements with (Abbas) and whether it would be possible to implement them in Gaza," Livni said in Jerusalem on Wednesday.

Considered a "terrorist" organisation by the United States, the European Union and Israel, Hamas's founding charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish state but its leaders have offered a long-term truce with Israel in return for a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

SEPARATION:

The territories are only about 45 km (30 miles) apart, with Israel in between, but the fighting has highlighted just how different they are. "There is almost a complete separation between Gaza and the West Bank," Livni said.

The Islamist militants of Hamas increasingly hold sway in Gaza, while the larger West Bank is dominated by Fatah, whose leaders favour a negotiated two-state solution to the conflict.

Critics say a Western economic embargo imposed on the Palestinian Authority after Hamas came to power in March 2006, on top of the U.S. military assistance for Abbas, exacerbated tensions and fuelled Islamist militancy.

"If you have two brothers put into a cage and deprive them of basic essential needs for life, they will fight," Palestinian Foreign Minister Ziad Abu Amr said on Wednesday.

White House spokesman Tony Snow said in Washington: "Palestinians are going to have to sort out their politics and figure out which pathway they want to pursue -- the pathway toward two states living peaceably side by side or whether this sort of chaos is going to become a problem."

Israeli leaders have mixed feelings about the Bush administration's push to strengthen Abbas, a leader they long dismissed as powerless. Livni once called him "irrelevant".

Establishing Abbas's security control over Gaza was a linchpin of U.S. efforts to revive the peace process. Washington has long held that negotiations will go nowhere if Israel cannot be assured that Abbas can curb cross-border militant attacks.

Washington had just launched a nearly $60 million programme to bolster Abbas's Presidential Guard with advanced training and non-lethal equipment. At Washington's urging, Israel has allowed Arab states to send arms and ammunition.

But Israel has not been as forthcoming with timely assistance as some of Abbas's aides and Western officials had hoped, and Olmert has resisted taking other confidence-building steps, angering Washington.

Some Israeli officials say Fatah is hopelessly outgunned in Gaza and that any weapons that might be sent to the group now would fall into the hands of Hamas and be used against Israelis.

"We want to strengthen the moderates," Livni said. "But I think the last thing we want to do is to express ourselves in a way that makes it seems we are working together."

(Additional reporting by Ari Rabinovitch and Avida Landau)

© Reuters 2007. All Rights Reserved.

Source:
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/CrisesArticle.aspx?rpc=401&storyId=L1363999

 

[KAding]

A take-over by Hamas will only mean another halt in emergency and development aid. No country on this planet has an obligation to provide aid to the Palestinians after all.

Rather disturbingly more Palestinians have died in these few days of clashes between Hamas and Fatah gunmen than have been killed by Israelis in the last 3 months combined (and that includes the West Bank).

 

[Zman]

A take-over by Hamas will only mean another halt in emergency and development aid.

I believe that Norway & Japan have recently decided to break ranks, and resume direct aid to the Palestinian government.

You gotta unnderstand, that this anti-Hamas stance is most strong and biased in the West. Many Thrid World nations have no problem dealing with them.

Did you know that Russia doesn't even list them as a terrorist organization?

 

[KAding]

Hypothetically speaking, what would be wrong with temporarily recognizing Israel's right to exist, and then coming back in a few decades and taking your land back the way they took it from you?

You mean signing a peace and then backstabbing them when they aren't expecting it (like on Yum Kippur or something )? Isn't that a bit dishonorable though? I vaguely remember reading in the Qu'ran that it is not allowed to attack people with which you have a treaty?

Stuff like:

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them except those of the idolaters with which you have made an agreement." (IX:4-5)

"If they break their oaths after their agreement and [openly] revile your religion, then fight." (IX:12)

"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah." (VIII:61)

But then again, I'm not an Islamic scholar. I understand it's probably more nuanced. I think Dawud_UK not very long ago prescribed to the idea that Muslims have a permanent Casus Belli on any non-Muslim country that occupies land that was at one time or another controlled by Muslims.

Backstabbing after peace would be the most effective approach though, I agree with that! You have to time it properly though, since it might be hard to motivate people to fight after a few decades or peace. A few decades of peace is bound to lower the hate after all, people might get complacent! :exhausted :?

 

[eyeofthestorm]

u know what i have actually given up hope for any sort of muslim ummah, its disguusting lebanon, actually whole of middle east just sitting there watching brother kill brother not any different in any other country, n ppl i cant fight dis war by myself....

 

[KAding]

I believe that Norway & Japan have recently decided to break ranks, and resume direct aid to the Palestinian government.

Norway and Japan probably only 'broke ranks' because of the Hamas/Fatah unity government, no? If Hamas takes control forcefully, they will rejoin the ranks in no time.

You gotta unnderstand, that this anti-Hamas stance is most strong and biased in the West. Many Thrid World nations have no problem dealing with them.

Did you know that Russia doesn't even list them as a terrorist organization?

Third world nations by definition have little money to spare on aid though. Clearly the PA did not manage to generate enough income to actually pay their civil servants, let alone to balance their budget.

But who knows. Maybe some Hamas-friendly countries will take over, like Iran. The problem is that there is little to gain for non-Muslim third world countries. Why would they actively give money to an organization like Hamas? What would they have to gain?

 

[KAding]

u know what i have actually given up hope for any sort of muslim ummah, its disguusting lebanon, actually whole of middle east just sitting there watching brother kill brother not any different in any other country, n ppl i cant fight dis war by myself....

It is different in that it is probably worse. In-fighting is at very high levels in the Muslim world. Private militias are everywhere. Bombings and all-out civil wars are widespread. Just think of the many horrendous civil wars in countries like Algeria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan. The bombings in Pakistan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bangladesh and Indonesia. Only sub-saharan Africa has seen more conflict in the last decade or so IMHO.

 

[Zman]

If Hamas takes control forcefully, they will rejoin the ranks in no time.

Well, if Hamas come out the undisputed champs, that'll create a new reality on the ground. And with time, many nations may end up having to deal with them.

Fatah, hasn't really provided anything meaningful to the Palestinian people. They are known for their stagnation and utter corruption. Now, they have taken sides with the US, Israel and some Arab governments, against a legally & democratically elected Hamas.

Fatah is by now totally irrelevant...

Third world nations by definition have little money to spare on aid though.

The Gulf states alone can sustain the PA.

many governments and the Arab League wanted to send the PA money, but Arab banks refused, because they were intimidated into submission by our State Department.

Then, Hamas members attempted to cross into Gaza from Egypt,with suitcases full of millions, most of it was confiscated by Egypt, The Joint Israeli/EU/Fatah guards at the border crossings...

Clearly the PA did not manage to generate enough income to actually pay their civil servants, let alone to balance their budget.

Actually, Israel has froze 100 million in taxes that are due to the PA. They won't even give it to Abbas...

 

[Skywalker]

Today they had a very good report on Al Jazeera about the direct impact of the international boycott of Hamas as a government body on the Palestinian people. It's very sad actually. They say that household debt has risen 50-60% since Hamas was elected, mostly for electricity, groceries, and water. They also presented a leaked report from a former (I think) UN official there, that directly blames the stop of international aid to Palestine as a source of most of the problems going on there now.

It would be great if people all over the world united in giving aid to the Palestinians, if only someone could organize a thing like that...

 

[Sami Zaatari]

hamas defeat fatah:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Hamas fighters launched a fierce offensive on Gaza City Wednesday, firing mortars and rockets at Fatah's main security bases and the president's compound as the Islamic group appeared close to taking control of the entire Gaza Strip.

Fatah's forces were crumbling fast, with some fighters seen fleeing their security posts and hundreds of others surrendering, hands raised, to masked Hamas gunmen.

A Hamas military victory in Gaza could split Palestinians into a Hamas-controlled Gaza and a Fatah-run West Bank, and push the prospect of statehood even further away. It could also set the stage for a bloody confrontation with Israel, which might intervene to prevent attacks from Gaza.

In the southern town of Khan Younis, Hamas militants surrounded a security headquarters and warned everyone inside to leave or they would blow it up, witnesses said. The building was then destroyed by a bomb planted in a tunnel underneath it, said Ali Qaisi, a presidential guard spokesman.

An Associated Press reporter saw defeated Fatah fighters streaming out of the building after turning over their weapons to Hamas militants. Hamas took weapons, clothes and vehicles and flew a green Islamic flag over the building, then celebrated by firing in the air and passing out candy.

Security forces later said they had lost control of the town.

"Khan Younis is finished," said Ziad Sarafandi, a senior security official.

At least 20 people were killed in fighting Wednesday, bringing the total in the four days of infighting to over 60. Among those killed Wednesday was a man shot when Hamas gunmen fired on a peaceful protest against the violence, witnesses said.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah called the fighting "madness" and pleaded with the exiled leader of Hamas to halt the violence.

Abbas and Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas issued a joint statement after nightfall, calling on all sides "to halt fighting, and to return to language of dialogue and respect of agreements," according to a statement from Abbas' office. The call was broadcast on Palestinian TV.

Hamas radio denied the two had agreed to a truce, and clashes intensified in the hour after their statement was broadcast.

Hamas and Fatah nominally share power in a coalition government, while Fatah runs most of Gaza's security forces. But no one was listening to the elected leaders' pleas for calm as the focus of power passed to street militias.

Hamas gunmen neutralized the main strongholds of the Fatah-linked security forces, ruling the streets and taking control of large parts of Gaza in the process.

Abbas' forces — desperately trying to cling to their besieged bases in Gaza — lashed out at the president, saying he left them with no directions and no support in the fight.

Hamas and Fatah have waged a sporadic power struggle since Hamas won parliament elections last year, ending four decades of Fatah dominance of Palestinian affairs. But the battle is now verging on civil war, as Hamas wages a systematic assault on security forces.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said he discussed the possible deployment of a multinational force in Gaza with the Security Council on Wednesday after the Israeli and Palestinian leaders raised the idea.

With fighting raging on rooftops and streets in nearly all corners of Gaza, residents huddled in fear in their homes.

Hamas, already in control of much of northern Gaza, seized Khan Younis on Wednesday and began a coordinated assault on the southern town of Rafah, security officials said.

Hamas militants blew up a security building near Rafah after a long gunbattle, said Col. Nasser Khaldi, a senior police official.

"What can I say? This is a fall, a collapse," he said.

Fayez Abu Taha, 45, a businessman in Rafah, said he was trapped in his apartment building with his family after Hamas fighters took over a nearby rooftop and Fatah responded by taking over the roof of his building.

"I don't know what they are battling for now," he said. "I can see the bullets flying from my windows. Coming and going."

The rout of the security forces was so bad that 40 Palestinian security officers broke through the border fence in Rafah and fled into Egypt seeking safety, Egyptian police said.

In the afternoon, Hamas forces attacked the three main compounds of the Fatah-allied forces in Gaza City — the headquarters of the Preventive Security, the Intelligence Service and the National Forces — in what could usher in the final phase of the battle.

Hamas fighters, firing rockets and mortar shells, took over the rooftops in nearby houses and cut off the roads to prevent reinforcements from arriving. They called on the beleaguered Fatah forces to surrender.

Hamas gunmen in high-rise buildings also fired at Abbas' Gaza office and house and his guard force returned fire. Abbas was in the West Bank at the time of the fighting.

During the battle at the Preventive Security Service base, both sides fired wildly from high-rise rooftops.

Dr. Wael Abdel Jawad, a physician trapped in his apartment, said he heard Fatah fighters shouting at colleagues on an adjacent roof to send them more ammunition.

"All of us are terrified here. Shooting came through the windows of our apartment, children are screaming. We are hearing from a nearby mosque the call by Hamas to surrender," he said.

"Those fighters on rooftops are like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills. They don't know where to shoot," he said.

In another dramatic battle in Gaza City, hundreds of members of the Fatah-allied Bakr clan, which had fought fiercely for two days, surrendered to masked Hamas gunmen and were led, arms raised, to a nearby mosque. Footage broadcast on Hamas' Al Aqsa TV showed some of the Bakr women trying to enter the mosque. Hamas gunmen later drove off with some of the Bakr fighters, witnesses said.

Two women from the clan tried to leave the area to take a sick girl to a hospital and were shot and killed by jittery Hamas gunmen, a clan member said.

After nightfall, Hamas militants blew up the house of one of the Bakr clan's leaders, witnesses said.

Early Thursday, Fatah officials said their forces withdrew from some bases in central Gaza and destroyed them, rather than allow them to fall into Hamas hands.

In Washington, U.S. officials condemned the fighting.

"Violence certainly does not serve the interest of the Palestinian people, and it's not going to bring the peace and prosperity that they deserve," White House spokesman Tony Snow said.

"They are shooting at anyone and everyone who is Fatah," said Youssef Abu Siyam, a Preventive Security officer in Rafah.

The fighting spilled into the Fatah-dominated West Bank. Hamas and Fatah gunmen exchanged fire in the city of Nablus and a nearby refugee camp after Fatah gunmen tried to storm a pro-Hamas TV production company. Hamas said 12 of its fighters were wounded.

On Wednesday, Abbas spoke by phone with the Damascus-based Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal to try to stop the crisis, said Abbas aide Nimr Hamad.

"This is madness, the madness that is going on in Gaza now," Abbas told reporters.

The U.N. Relief and Works Agency, which provides aid to Palestinian refugees, said it would curtail its operations after two of its Palestinian workers were killed by crossfire.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri, said the clashes could have been avoided if Abbas had given the Hamas-led Cabinet control over the security forces, which he blamed for a wave of kidnappings, torture and violence in Gaza.

(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070613/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians)

this may be the beggining of the end of the major battles we have seen in gaza as hamas have all but won this fight.

 

[Skywalker]

Whoops didn't notice this...

You mean signing a peace and then backstabbing them when they aren't expecting it (like on Yum Kippur or something )? Isn't that a bit dishonorable though? I vaguely remember reading in the Qu'ran that it is not allowed to attack people with which you have a treaty?

You're right, you're not allowed to attack someone with whom you've made a treaty, but does the recognition of Isreal's right to exist equate to a peace treaty. A peace treaty means you won't attack each other for a certain amount of time unless the other attacks first. The recognition of the other party's existance is not the same, at least from my point of view.

This may be the beggining of the end of the major battles we have seen in gaza as hamas have all but won this fight.

Yeah it does appear as if they've won, but the question now is where they'll go from here. Will the rest of the Palestinians that are pro-Fatah explode in civil war with Hamas or will there actually be peace? Secondly, will this improve or hinder the peace process in general?

I guess everything will become apparent in the coming days insha-Allah.

 

[Bittersteel]

kindly people don't defend the action of the Arabs in the past just because they are Muslims.They did a lot of things wrong which has got the whole region into like this,though they are not the only ones to blame.

 

[MTAFFI]

Abbas dissolves Palestinian government By SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Writer
12 minutes ago



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A beleaguered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas declared a state of emergency and disbanded the Hamas-led unity government after the Islamic militant group vanquished its Fatah rivals and effectively took control of the Gaza Strip on Thursday.

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Fearful that Hamas' momentum could spread to the West Bank, Fatah went on the offensive there, rounding up three dozen Hamas fighters. Angry Fatah militants threw office furniture out a third-story window of the Palestinian parliament building in the West Bank city of Ramallah, then set fire to the office of three Hamas lawmakers.

It was a day of major victories for Hamas and its backers in Iran and Syria — and of devastating setbacks for the Western-backed Fatah. In one particularly humiliating scene, masked Hamas fighters marched agents of the once-feared Preventive Security Service out of their headquarters, arms raised in the air, stripped to the waist and ducking at the sound of a gunshot.

The violence has killed at least 90 people in the past five days, including 32 on Thursday alone. Witnesses, Fatah officials and a doctor reported executions by Hamas militants of defeated Fatah fighters Thursday; Fatah said seven of its men were shot in the head gangland-style. Hamas denied any such killings.

Abbas, of Fatah, fired the Hamas prime minister and said he would install a new government, replacing the Hamas-Fatah coalition formed just three months ago. Abbas' decrees won't reverse the Hamas takeover of Gaza. Instead, his moves will enable Fatah to consolidate its control over the West Bank, likely paving the way for two separate Palestinian governments.

Because Fatah has recognized Israel's right to exist and signed on to past peace agreements, the international community's boycott of the Palestinian territories in the wake of Hamas' electoral successes may no longer apply to the West Bank — just to Gaza. Some 2 million Palestinians live in the West Bank, while 1.4 million reside in Gaza.

Hamas' success has thrown into turmoil everything from Mideast peacemaking to Palestinian statehood to relations with Israel and the West.

"The era of justice and Islamic rule has arrived," Hamas spokesman Islam Shahawan said.

Fatah's old demons — corruption, petty quarreling, lack of leadership — led to its dismal performance. While disciplined Hamas systematically hoarded weapons, Fatah's Gaza leader, Mohammed Dahlan, preferred travel and West Bank politics to preparing for the inevitable showdown with the Islamic militants. Dahlan returned Thursday from Egypt, where he stayed several weeks after knee surgery. But instead of going to Gaza, he headed for Ramallah.

Many West Bank Palestinians, watching the fall of Gaza on their TV screens, pinned the blame on Abbas, whom they see as indecisive and detached. During Hamas's assaults in Gaza this week, no prominent Fatah leader was in the coastal strip to take command.

"Hamas has leadership, a goal, an ideology and funding," said Gaza analyst Talal Okal. "Fatah has neither leadership, nor a goal, a vision or money."

By capturing Gaza City's three main security compounds and the southern town of Rafah, Hamas secured its hegemony in Gaza, putting Islamic extremists in control there. Hamas seized its final target, Abbas' Gaza City headquarters, late Thursday, according to witnesses.

For first time since fighting erupted five days ago, Abbas issued an order to strike back. But his words were too little, too late.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said Abbas' decisions have "no value" on the ground.

Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz vowed not to let the takeover of Gaza spill over into violence against Israel. Some Israelis said only a Gaza invasion could curb Hamas' military power. But for now, the government seems more inclined to stay out, fearful of inviting more rocket attacks on southern Israel.

In Washington, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the United States backs Abbas' move. Abbas informed Rice of his decision in a phone call earlier Thursday.

"President Abbas has exercised his lawful authority as president of the Palestinian Authority, as leader of the Palestinian people," Rice said. "We fully support him in his decision to try and end this crisis for the Palestinian people and to give them an opportunity ... to return to peace and a better future."

The European Commission, meanwhile, suspended tens of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid projects in the Gaza Strip because of the escalating violence, a day after the U.N. announced it would scale back its relief projects there.

This week's fighting has been the most intense since Hamas won parliamentary elections last year, setting the stage for a violent power struggle with Fatah. Hamas reluctantly brought Fatah into the coalition in March to quell an earlier round of violence, but the uneasy partnership began crumbling last month over control of the powerful security forces.

No battle was more indicative of Gaza's hatreds and passions than the one at Preventive Security, one of Fatah's four main security bases in the coastal strip. After Hamas fighters overran it in a hail of mortar and gunfire Thursday, they touched their heads to the ground in prayer and marched vanquished gunmen into the streets shirtless.

Preventive Security carried out a brutal crackdown on Hamas in 1996, and the militants never forgot it. "There is a history to it, a vendetta and a settling of scores," said Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi.

Fatah officials, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution, said Hamas shot dead seven Fatah fighters after they had surrendered. A doctor at Shifa Hospital said he examined two bodies that had been shot in the head at close range.

A witness named Amjad who lives in a high-rise building that overlooks the Preventive Security complex said men were killed in front of their wives and children.

"They are executing them one by one," Amjad said in a telephone interview, declining to give his full name for fear of reprisals. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

The killers, he said, ignored appeals from neighborhood residents to spare the men's lives.

Abu Zuhri, the Hamas spokesman, denied the reports of gangland-style killings. "Whoever was killed was killed in clashes," he said.

Hamas TV said the Preventive Security building would be turned into an Islamic college. It showed a room with wall-to-wall wiretapping equipment — a testament to Fatah's collapsed control.

Hamas fighters later seized the Fatah-controlled intelligence services building, planting the Islamic group's green flag on the roof of the ship-shaped structure. And after nightfall, the group announced it had seized Fatah's last stronghold in Gaza, the National Security headquarters.

Hamas TV showed smoke billowing from the top two floors of the mortar-pocked, five-story intelligence building. Five masked gunmen posed inside for the TV camera, including one who raised two assault rifles in triumph.

Another gunman, wearing a Hamas headband around his helmet, stood in a pose of prayer, a hand to each side of his head, screaming "Allah is Great" at the top of his voice.

Spent bullets lay on the floor in one office, and a carton holding hand grenades stood in another area.

Outside the building, three masked gunmen prayed on the sidewalk, their weapons on the ground in front of them as they kneeled in prayer.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070614/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians