God is the best planner of all?

[جوري]

So Allah is beyond logic?

If you have an internal representation of the world and God, to a low common denominator, you'l forgive that others won't and don't share you view!.. Perhaps if you name God, quantum physics or natural philosophy we can get a more weighted abstract thought out of you?

If he knows what is going to happen, regardless of how he is involved, then from his point of view your path is predetermined. Again this is contrary to free will.

I don't desire to make a simile between the creator and the creation, but say you've always been an oppositional defiant sort of a kid, those who gave birth to you, know all of your traits. One day your mother bakes a batch of cookies, and tells you don't take any of it, she knowing your nature expects you to do it anyway, you being you, go and live up to her disappointed expectations of you. Does the fact that she knows of your nature, deny you, your own free will? You went ahead and did it anyway, it was your choosing!


* I'll ask the atheists on board to practice a bit of sophistry before posing their q's they are so inane and pedantic.. I can get a more substantiative questions from children...

Does this forum have an age limit? we should impose one really!

 

[Azy]

I don't desire to make a simile between the creator and the creation, but say you've always been an oppositional defiant sort of a kid, those who gave birth to you, know all of your traits. One day your mother bakes a batch of cookies, and tells you don't take any of it, she knowing your nature expects you to do it anyway, you being you, go and live up to her disappointed expectations of you. Does the fact that she knows of your nature, deny you, your own free will? You went ahead and did it anyway, it was your choosing!

The problem with this scenario is that while my mother may know me as well as a person can know another she doesn't have actual knowledge of my future actions.

She may be able to accurately predict my actions based on the fact I was a naughty defiant little kid but that is not the same as a definite knowledge of what my exact actions will be.
This analogy is over-simplified and does not address the subject.

 

[------]

:salamext:

^ Ur analogy of not believing in Allaah needs to be simplifed lol

 

[aamirsaab]

If he knows what is going to happen, regardless of how he is involved, then from his point of view your path is predetermined. Again this is contrary to free will.

No it isn't. Free will encorporates the actual act. Predetermination in no way negates this. It just means God knows what your overall decision is going to be - He is not chosing and performing the action. You are.

To answer the question raised in the title:

God is the best planner of all?

From my life experience. Yes, yes He is.

 

[Azy]

No it isn't. Free will encorporates the actual act. Predetermination in no way negates this. It just means God knows what your overall decision is going to be - He is not chosing and performing the action. You are.

Say you're deciding what to have for breakfast, toast or cereal.
God knows you're going to have toast.
If you had free will you would be able to choose cereal or toast, there is nothing to stop you doing either one. Problem is, if you really did have absolute free will you would be able to choose cereal and thus prove God wrong.
This means there must be a mechanism for God to know what you're going to do. Is life entirely predictable from God's point of view? If so then your life is determined in advance and you aren't really responsible, like a leaf going downstream, it may seem unpredictable but it is at the mercy of external forces.
If God just knows and there is some sort of spooky explanation that defies logic then there's no point in discussing it.

 

[Mikayeel]

To me that shows that Allah is the all wise! Look I got a phone in front of me, i can either pick it up! Or just leave it, in my case i picked it up! (this is free will) But whatever i choose to do Allah knows of it, before i even do it!

SubhanAllah!!! The all wise, the all knower. What kind of things u guys associate with him

 

[barney]

I'd love to carry on for a bit, but my mummy says its my bathtime , and I get to use the sparkle toothpaste tonight.
Might post tommorow after nursery.

 

[Mikayeel]

Do you atheist/agnostic feel that your life is predetermined in ANY kind of way? If you answer me with a yes, ur lying!

If you answer me with a no, then its Allah who gave u the option to know whats good and whats bad. To either believe or disbelieve in him.

You CHOOSE to disbelieve in him, so i can't understand why you are complaining....

 

[Azy]

Do you atheist/agnostic feel that your life is predetermined in ANY kind of way? If you answer me with a yes, ur lying!

If you answer me with a no, then its Allah who gave u the option to know whats good and whats bad. To either believe or disbelieve in him.

You CHOOSE to disbelieve in him, so i can't understand why you are complaining....

I do believe in determinism. As one who places his trust in the reliability of the forces of nature to show us the truth about our surroundings, it would be very arrogant of me to believe that my mental processes were somehow beyond their reach.
Just as you can plot the trajectory of a ball in flight, a sufficiently powerful calculating machine could predict the outcome of your thoughts if the variables of the chemical processes inside you could be thoroughly known.

To be honest, I don't like that idea, but I'm willing to accept it.

 

[Mikayeel]

I do believe in determinism. As one who places his trust in the reliability of the forces of nature to show us the truth about our surroundings, it would be very arrogant of me to believe that my mental processes were somehow beyond their reach.
Just as you can plot the trajectory of a ball in flight, a sufficiently powerful calculating machine could predict the outcome of your thoughts if the variables of the chemical processes inside you could be thoroughly known.

To be honest, I don't like that idea, but I'm willing to accept it.

lool you said it your self, ''predicting'' uhmm

 

[MustafaMc]

I'd love to carry on for a bit, but my mummy says its my bathtime , and I get to use the sparkle toothpaste tonight.
Might post tommorow after nursery.

How big is the tub required to bath a dino? I suppose you just go jump in the pool or sum'tin'.

 

[جوري]

The problem with this scenario is that while my mother may know me as well as a person can know another she doesn't have actual knowledge of my future actions.
She may be able to accurately predict my actions based on the fact I was a naughty defiant little kid but that is not the same as a definite knowledge of what my exact actions will be.
This analogy is over-simplified and does not address the subject.

hence I stated I'd hate to make a simile between the creation and the creator, but so you can get the general picture!

As well, you'll forgive that the index of the reply will have to be on the same level as the Question!...I am not going to prescribe someone Meropenem when the problem can be handled with a mere penicillin! or in other terms, no point in bringing a power hammer where a drumstick will do!

cheers

 

[Azy]

hence I stated I'd hate to make a simile between the creation and the creator, but so you can get the general picture!

Thanks, but I'm already aware of the general picture, it's the specifics I'm interested in. Is there anything in Islam that suggests how God would be aware of your future, to what extent you are 'predestined' to act a certain way, whether God has an active hand in that and how free will and responsibility are involved.

lool you said it your self, ''predicting'' uhmm

Yes, I did.
For example, you take a ball and roll it down a hill. If you could map every bump of the hillside and measure the properties of the ball to a high degree of accuracy, you could set the ball rolling and predict it's path. If I could then go back and set it up exactly the same, I would release the ball and watch it follow an identical path down the hill.

Taking the predictable effects of known causes and extrapolating into the future would make it possible to predict almost anything, is this how God knows what's going to happen, we are entirely predictable in a physical sense?
If you were told what you were predestined to do, could you use your free will to change it?

 

[Mikayeel]

Thanks, but I'm already aware of the general picture, it's the specifics I'm interested in. Is there anything in Islam that suggests how God would be aware of your future, to what extent you are 'predestined' to act a certain way, whether God has an active hand in that and how free will and responsibility are involved.

Yes, I did.
For example, you take a ball and roll it down a hill. If you could map every bump of the hillside and measure the properties of the ball to a high degree of accuracy, you could set the ball rolling and predict it's path. If I could then go back and set it up exactly the same, I would release the ball and watch it follow an identical path down the hill.

Taking the predictable effects of known causes and extrapolating into the future would make it possible to predict almost anything, is this how God knows what's going to happen, we are entirely predictable in a physical sense?
If you were told what you were predestined to do, could you use your free will to change it?

What if it was more windy on that day? Or if the surface was snowy? Aaah didnt plan that did u! (do you know why? because u simply can't)

Yesterday the weather forecast in cardiff, ''PREDICTED'' continuous sunshine. I was all excited to play football only to find out that it was rainy and the sky was grey

 

[جوري]

Thanks, but I'm already aware of the general picture, it's the specifics I'm interested in. Is there anything in Islam that suggests how God would be aware of your future, to what extent you are 'predestined' to act a certain way, whether God has an active hand in that and how free will and responsibility are involved.

You should read the Quran in its entirety, I recommend the Leopold weiss translation, then we can have this discussion.
I have already drawn my conclusion and I fear it, too esoteric to share on this forum. I don't like leading people astray when I am not a scholar in exegesis.

To give you my abridged conclusion.. goodness and initiative has to come from you.. and as is, in suret Al'anfal... if there is goodness in you, you can set your own positive change in motion with the aid of Allah swt..Now this is a very personal experience surely mine differs from others... There truly is a way to work in conert with the father of all universal laws.. I will not eleborate on that further, save to say, what you might deem serendipitous, I would deem calculated and planned with the individual influencing the outcome!

People are much like harvest... as so we were also described by Allah (swt) to prophet Moses (sas)... there will always be weed that crowds out cultivated plants, though you grow from the same earth..

cheers

 

[InToTheRain]

Allah(SWT) says in the Qur'an:

"On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear..." [Surah Baqarah: Chapter 2, Verse 285]

If Allah(SWT) is to prevent me from being overburdened surely He must be aware of all my future actions, my choices, my abilities etc so as to make the trials and tribulations I face fair according to my character and abilities. He in fact controls the sphere under which I can practice my free will, and He knows Best. He is the most Just and All Knowing and not even an atom's movement escapes his knowledge.

 

[Azy]

I just thought I'd address this before bed.

What if it was more windy on that day? Or if the surface was snowy? Aaah didnt plan that did u! (do you know why? because u simply can't)

You'll notice I said exactly the same. I'm not really talking about what I personally can do, but what is possible within the bounds of what we know, what can logically be inferred from the rules that govern our surroundings.

Yesterday the weather forecast in cardiff, ''PREDICTED'' continuous sunshine. I was all excited to play football only to find out that it was rainy and the sky was grey

This is a prediction of an immensely complex system based on a handful of variables. Obviously it is not going to be accurate all the time.

What if we could measure all the variables down to the movement of every single molecule of air and water vapour, the rustle of every tree and every photon entering the atmosphere?

 

[- Qatada -]

Believing that Allah has knowledge of all matters is an attribute of His Perfection, we do not know the future, but we have been given the criterion between truth/falsehood, wrong/right etc. through His revelation. We accept the revelation and strive to do good while avoiding evil - we have a choice in that, we feel it.


Since we do not know the future - that is sufficient for us to strive as much as possible to attain Paradise. Us not knowing our destination is sufficient for us to aim for good. One can argue that God has planned it already, therefore disobeying what He has sent as guidance for us, or another can follow the guidance - hoping for the best.

The one who strives for the good will earn it, and that is God's Promise. But the one who turns away and rejects - then they have none to blame except themselves, since they were warned beforehand of the consequences.

that's sufficient for us as an argument as muslims. lets just leave it at that.

 

[Chuck]

For example, you take a ball and roll it down a hill. If you could map every bump of the hillside and measure the properties of the ball to a high degree of accuracy, you could set the ball rolling and predict it's path. If I could then go back and set it up exactly the same, I would release the ball and watch it follow an identical path down the hill.

bad example, ball goes in the direction in which it is thrown. Ball example doesn't have an issue of freewill in the first place. Btw, there is difference between predestination and foreknowledge.

 

[Chuck]

Thanks, but I'm already aware of the general picture, it's the specifics I'm interested in. Is there anything in Islam that suggests how God would be aware of your future

Nope. Quran clearly says that there is nothing like God. I recommed read up Dr. Lang's section "If God was one of us". It is in his book struggling to surrender.

Excerpt from that book

If God were one of us, it would make things much easier, because then I would be able to understand Him, enough at least to see the connection between good works and divine intimacy. I can understand other persons because I share similar experiences, similar fears, hopes, dreams, wants, hardships, and joys. I can relate to them because we are the same basic being, only differing by slight variations. But God is not one of us. The Qur'an goes so far as to say that we cannot comprehend God, that God is "high exalted above anything that people may devise by way of definition" (6:100), that "there is nothing like unto Him" (42:11) and "nothing can be compared to Him" (112:4). It could not be otherwise, for how could human beings who are mortal, finite, corporeal, dependent, vulnerable, weak, limited, created, bound by space and time, understand one who is everlasting, infinite, non-corporeal, utterly independent, invulnerable, all-powerful, all knowing, all wise, Creator of all, transcendent.
If only the Qur'an had elaborated on God somewhere, gave us enough of a description so that we could fill in the lines. I did not come all this way only to find out that God is incomprehensible - an inscrutable mystery - and that for me there is no hope.
No wonder we humans tend to deify our own or to humanize God. Although this creates for me more rational dilemmas then it solves; it does lend God some tangibility. I guess I wanted to have my cake and eat it too. I wanted God to be utterly exalted above creation, utterly unlike the humanity I was part of, and at the same time reachable.