God's means of communication

[IAmZamzam]

So you do recognize speculation for what it is? And this isn't about (making weak attempts at) incurring doubts in us? You're speaking purely out of curiosity instead of skepticism and not attacking any beliefs? Is that right? If it is, I think I've already answered well enough in my first response.

 

[Zafran]

If everything we need to know of God can be found in signs in the universe, then what need have you of the Quran or of Mohammed?

The Quran and Muhammad pbuh are one of the signs - see what I mean By not being able to read the signs.

 

[Pygoscelis]

So you do recognize speculation for what it is? And this isn't about (making weak attempts at) incurring doubts in us? You're speaking purely out of curiosity instead of skepticism and not attacking any beliefs? Is that right? If it is, I think I've already answered well enough in my first response.

More like deduction. And others were raising interesting points flowing from it.

You would have seen this had you read the thread before jumping in with your haughty straw man (complete with fake quotes in quotation marks).

 

[Pygoscelis]

The Quran and Muhammad pbuh are one of the signs - see what I mean By not being able to read the signs.

Only one of? Does that mean that there is more to be known and understood about Allah than what is written in the Quran? Does your fitrah (is that the right word?) and scripture combine and are both necessary or is one of them redundant?

 

[Zafran]

Only one of? Does that mean that there is more to be known and understood about Allah than what is written in the Quran? Does your fitrah (is that the right word?) and scripture combine and are both necessary or is one of them redundant?

No thats not what it means - its means what I said - the prophets, the books, the creation are all signs.

 

[IAmZamzam]

More like deduction. And others were raising interesting points flowing from it.

Answer the question. Are you asking these things out of curiosity, for the mere sake of clarification, or are they in question form only as a trope or grammatical technicality and you're just trying to "debunk" our beliefs or something?

You would have seen this had you read the thread before jumping in with your haughty straw man (complete with fake quotes in quotation marks).

What is it with people and the phrase "straw man"?? It's getting to be a cliche if not an obsession. Do quote marks always literally have to indicate quotation? Have you honestly never seen people use them with a summary or paraphrasing before? You said that God's omnipotence is called into question because of His not doing something He is theoretically capable of doing. If that isn't an appeal to probability and an argument well summarized by what I had in quotation marks there, whatever could be?

 

[Pygoscelis]

What is it with people and the phrase "straw man"??

I have not encountered people calling straw man very often at all. Maybe you keep hearing people call out straw men on you because you keep engaging in them?What you did here is a text book case of a straw man argument. You made up an argument and attributed it to me, even using quotation marks to make it look like you were quoting verbatim. You then proceeded to attack this argument you yourself made up and concluded that you had defeated me (for an argument I never made), all laced with indignation towards those dastardly arrogant atheists.

As I have told you repeatedly now, it was deduction/induction/exploration, as everyone else in the thread, mostly muslims, were quite aware (and a few made interesting points of their own following it up). Read it again without your preconceived idea, and it should be pretty clear. Instead of projecting motives on people and assigning arguments to them, perhaps you could read and address what people actually do say? It makes for a more coherent conversation.

You said that God's omnipotence is called into question because of His not doing something He is theoretically capable of doing.

And there you go with it again. I did not say that at all, no matter how bad you want me to have. This is tiresome and at this point you may have permanently derailed the thread from what we actually were discussing.

 

[Trumble]

The whole point is not to make the truth seem so obvious that it requires no faith at all. Otherwise everyone would be true believers.

And that would be a problem because.... ? In what way is a condition where everyone is a true believer inferior to one where many/most are not?!!

 

[جوري]

Quote Originally Posted by aadil77 View Post The whole point is not to make the truth seem so obvious that it requires no faith at all. Otherwise everyone would be true believers.

And that would be a problem because.... ? In what way is a condition where everyone is a true believer inferior to one where many/most are not?!!

I don't personally agree with Br. Aadil on his view. Given the universality and ease of the message of Islam.. however one should at least make a minor effort.
No teacher is going to hand you the exam results before the test.. it doesn't make for an interesting existence!

all the best

 

[Ramadhan]

I don't personally agree with Br. Aadil on his view. Given the universality and ease of the message of Islam.. however one should at least make a minor effort.
No teacher is going to hand you the exam results before the test.. it doesn't make for an interesting existence!

all the best

I agree with this.
Unless their hearts are truly sealed, anyone with working braincells who has heard and understood the true mesage of Islam would know that it is the truth.
Most would reject it for many various reasons, however, but not because of the message itself.

 

[aadil77]

And that would be a problem because.... ?

Because it wouldn't be much of a test if the answers are in your face

 

[M.I.A.]

The point is that by better communicating God could have avoided much of the religious strife and tension in the world. This doesn't in any way disprove God. It only indicates that if he does (and he's all powerful) then he wants such strife and tension to exist, and you have to wonder why. Perhaps it serves some purpose I do not see?

If we all simply knew he existed and they he was as muslims (or whichever religion is right) envision him instead of how pagans or christians (or whoever is wrong) envision him, then the only "test" would be wether or not you choose to follow and obey his commands, instead of wether or not you can figure out the religion puzzle. Making us know what he wishes us to know would not take away free will. People would still be free to reject him and rebel against him (which is what I am often told is what I do anyway - but one can't rejecthttp://www.islamicboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1389966 or rebel against something that doesn't exist).

It is a similar question that I have pondered on Christian forums. Are people who don't believe in God capable of blasphemy?

im not sure i believe that islam is the only pathway to heaven, its very similar to the christ being salvation from hellfire thing the christians do.

to each soul will be judgement and god is not unmindful of what you have done with your life.

 

[Pygoscelis]

im not sure i believe that islam is the only pathway to heaven, its very similar to the christ being salvation from hellfire thing the christians do.

to each soul will be judgement and god is not unmindful of what you have done with your life.

Do you believe that even atheists can go to heaven if they live a moral life and do good by their fellow humans, even though they don't believe that God exists?

 

[جوري]

Do you believe that even atheists can go to heaven if they live a moral life and do good by their fellow humans, even though they don't believe that God exists?

does your belief in God hinge on whether or not other theists hold the belief that you'll end up in heaven?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Because it wouldn't be much of a test if the answers are in your face

It would be a true test of if people will accept and worship Allah, or reject and rebel against him. I do not reject Allah any more than you reject Jesus as your personal saviour. I do not disobey Allah any more than you disobey Odin and Thor (or any other imaginary figure). You can not reject or rebel against something without first knowing it exists.

Lots of well meaning Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and atheists honestly and earnestly search for God an find different answers. None of them are turning against Allah mindfully. If God is all powerful then he did not have to make the message so cryptic and resort to ancient tomes and human messengers.He didn't have to resort to human language at all, and could haev simply made us all know what he wishes us to know. We would then have the free will to make the informed decision to either follow him or rebel against him. That he did not do this shows that he intended the religious confusion and tension that we have in the world, Atheists against Theist, Christian against Muslim, Suni against Shia, etc. My question is why.

 

[Pygoscelis]

does your belief in God hinge on whether or not other theists hold the belief that you'll end up in heaven?

No. Why would you think that? I was just seeking to clarify my friend's viewpoint.

 

[جوري]

No. Why would you think that? I was just seeking to clarify my friend's viewpoint.

seemed like the sort of clarification upon which something else is based.. but if you say so..

all the best

 

[IAmZamzam]

Here's a radical idea: if I have misunderstood you, Pygoscelis, why don't you actually correct my interpretation of your words instead of just hurling around accusations yourself?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Here's a radical idea: if I have misunderstood you, Pygoscelis, why don't you actually correct my interpretation of your words instead of just hurling around accusations yourself?

I did. Twice. And pointing out your straw man argument is not hurling accusations. Calling you tiresome in my most recent post was bad form, so for that I apologize. I will redouble my effort to be civil and respectful. I ask that you do the same.

 

[IAmZamzam]

You did not correct me on anything. You just insisted that I was wrong about what you meant and left it at that. And saying the word "deduction" does not do anything all by itself. What is being deduced? That's what I want to know: your conclusion.

Perhaps it would be easier if you restate your point in the form of a syllogism. Unless you really do mean for it to only be an inquiry out of genuine curiosity. If you don't, you may as well be out with it instead of being all rhetorical about it.