Hamas has released a copy of the letter captured IDF soldier Gilad Shalit

:sl:
The situation is a lot more complicated than simply 'Jews stole Muslim land!', or 'the Jews got there first!'.

The simplfied history of Israel:
  • First, Israel belonged to the Canaanites and various tribes. The Israelites were lead to freedom out of Egypt and conquered the land to form the Bronze age Israel.
  • Then, the Babylonians took over Israel and forced the Israelites into captivity, where a lot of Judaism's tenents were supposedly compiled.
  • The Jews endured the captivity until Cyrus the Great of Persia invaded Babylon and returned the Jews to Israel. They rebuilt the Temple there and thrived under Persian rule.
  • But eventually Persia was destroyed by Macedonia under Alexander the Great. Alexander's empire was short-lived, and broke into many independent states, the state of Israel included. Greek culture spread around the Middle East and Israel too was Helenized.
  • Israel was then conquered by the Romans who made it part of their Empire. The Jews tried to revolt, but the revolt was crushed and Jerusalem was sacked. The Temple was destroyed and the Jews were scattered across the region. Israel became a Roman area, and was later Christianised when Rome converted to Christianity.
  • After the long Roman reign, the Arabs invaded and conquered the Roman provinces of the Middle east. Islam began to spread, first slowly under the Umayyads but then rapidly by the time of the Abbasids.
  • The Arabs began to loose their strength and break up, and Israel was taken for a short time by Crusaders. The Ayyubid Arabs (Saladin's empire) tool Israel back, but the strength of the Arabs was spent as the Mongols and Turks took over the Middle East.
  • After the Ottomans had united the Turks, they began to expand and took over Israel from the Arab Sultanates. Israel stayed under Ottoman rule until WWI, when the Treaty of Sevres broke up the Ottoman Empire.
  • When the Ottoman Empire broke up, Britain took control of Israel and Jordan. Zionist immigrants who had been calling for independence and Arabs who wanted to stop them from coming in began to commit terrorist attacks against each other and the British rule.
  • Britian initially tried to resist these attacks, but after WWII they were too weak. The persecutions of Jews by they Nazis strengthed Zionist arguments that Jews should have an independent state too, so in 1948 the UN declared the independence of Israel. The Arabs attacked Israel straight away, but Israel defeated them and remained independent to repell several more Arab attacks and take over the West Bank and Gaza.
So, the rulers of Israel have been:
Canaanites
Israelites
Babylonians
Persians
Greeks
Helenized Jews
Romans (inc. Byzantines)
Arabs (various dynasties/Sultanates)
Crusaders
Ottomans
British
Israel
Jordan (West Bank only)

That's 13 different states. And since the original owners, the Caanites, don't really exist anymore, it makes it very hard to just say 'so-and-so stole it from us', for both the Jewish and Arab sides.
:w:
 
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al Amaanah said:
say what? what about abu ghraib?

rahimahomollah
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I was talking about American prisoners, sister. I know how the Iraqis and Palestinians are mistreated and abused. But the hostages that were freed by the Mujahideen were not abused. They weren't given five star accommodations, but they weren't raped or beaten either.

The Ninth Scribe
 
Keltoi said:
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....
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I came to a Muslim forum to learn how Muslims feel about particular issues. If I wanted to learn the Republican perspective, I'd be at a Republican forum. Now you've said your peace here, over and over again, like a broken record. Kindly allow some of the Muslims to speak for a change.

The Ninth Scribe
 
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The_Prince said:
my sister, in Islam Muslims have a right to make Jihad for their land, and if they die for their land then they are martyrs:

Book 001, Number 0259:
Abu Huraira reported: A person came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, what do you think if a man comes to me in order to appropriate my possession? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Don't surrender your possession to him. He (the inquirer) said: If he fights me? He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: Then fight (with him). He (the inquirer) again said: What do you think if I am killed? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: You would be a martyr. He (the inquirer) said: What do you think of him (Messenger of Allah) If I kill him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: he would be in the Fire.

Sahih Muslim

so therefore what the Palestinians are doing, fighting and dying for their land is completly legit and is not a material war, it is Jihad and all their dead are martyrs fighting for their stolen land by the zionist flees.
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Well done! Actually, this is written into the law books of every land. In Texas, if someone tries to break into your house or they threaten you on your property, you have the right to kill them. No harm, no foul. Everyone has the right to defend themselves... no mater where they live.

The Ninth Scribe
 
James1992 said:
I went to Texas and i thought some people there were racist...
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Well, they're very back-woods and places that offer little cultural diversity wind up getting set in their own ways. There are lots of these little nooks and crannies in America where things hardly ever change.

The Ninth Scribe
 
Ninth_Scribe said:
I came to a Muslim forum to learn how Muslims feel about particular issues. If I wanted to learn the Republican perspective, I'd be at a Republican forum. Now you've said your peace here, over and over again, like a broken record. Kindly allow some of the Muslims to speak for a change.

The Ninth Scribe
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How was I stopping anyone from posting anything? Also, my perspective is my perspective, I don't get talking points from anyone or anything.
 
Ninth_Scribe said:
Well done! Actually, this is written into the law books of every land. In Texas, if someone tries to break into your house or they threaten you on your property, you have the right to kill them. No harm, no foul. Everyone has the right to defend themselves... no mater where they live.

The Ninth Scribe
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Most people the Palestinian resistence manages to kill are innocent civilians who didn't choose where they live and probably cannot get a proper picture of who took the land from whom, god knows what the zionist entity educational system feeds them with..
 
Personally I don't see what good it does to even debate who threw the first punch. The focus should be on stopping the conflict. Just when it appears some strides have been made in the direction of peace there is another incident that blows the whole thing up.

I sort of like the idea of a neutral Jerusalem as a capital city for all people of the Abrahamic faiths. Not that this will stop all the violence, but it might lead to easier negotations on future peace deals. It seems the two largest hurdles are the fate of who "owns" Jerusalem and the right of return for Palestinian refugees. At least one of them can be dealt with.
 
Wow... just when I thought my investigation into Islam was wielding some fruit, I see this. **sigh** The book I'm reading (The Religion of Truth) written by Saudi Muslims say that a prisoner of war must be treated kindly... unfortunately, it doesn't reference the Quran or Hadith, but is the book wrong?
 
arabianprincess said:
actually i should have been more clear i meant the isreali goverment or there military to get back at the palestines for wat they have done .. to show they anit weak... n it happen before... so i was just sayin this wat they might do... i wasnt sayin that he personally would go n KILL.
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If memory serves, the Palestinians have shown their metal, and they aren't going anywhere! They've stood up to the elite of the Israeli army and air force, and they've never once backed down. But that's the battle. I'd like to see them gain the global spot light for a change and I see this situation as a perfect opportunity... if it's played right. I mean, seriously. Israel is forcing the non-religious Jews into battle (kind of explains why the Iraqi Jews ignored the call of the Israeli government to return). They're not real soldiers. They're "property" of the state, who dresses them up like soldiers to fight their battles for them. Why? Because they can't get enough to enlist voluntarily! There are eight year old boys in Palestine who are REAL soldiers, like the one who just released a video, declaring that he will fight in his father's place! That's a REAL soldier. Gilad ~ he's just a pawn, sent in to walk point.

Heck, if I were fishing for dinner, I'd throw him back. :)

The Ninth Scribe
 
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Whatsthepoint said:
Most people the Palestinian resistence manages to kill are innocent civilians who didn't choose where they live and probably cannot get a proper picture of who took the land from whom, god knows what the zionist entity educational system feeds them with..
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You know, that's an excellent point. If Israel invokes mandatory military service for all their non-religious entities, they may be using the rest as nothing more than place holders.

You know, quite a lot of Jews lived there before. One family is of the lineage of the high priests ~ their family have lived there since the days of the second Temple, and have remained there, regardless of who was in charge of it. They just didn't care about who ran the government. Another local product wrote to me, saying: "Do you know, my mother is so religious, she refuses to recognize the state of Israel?"

I wanted to know more about that, why Judaism would prevent a Jew from recognizing that state, and I can tell you, there are a buffet of reasons! Add to this, the fact that many of the Iraqi Jews, ignored the call of Israel. They wanted no part of it, maybe for the same reason? But they defied Israel's "Operation Ezra and Nehemiah" and chose to stay in Iraq.

Earlier on in this forum, I wrote once that maybe the remnants of the tribes of Israel, who remain in other lands, don't want "to give up their peaceful existence to come to a state they didn't create, to fight in a war they didn't start."

I'll have to think about that. I'm sure the Israeli educational system is also feeding the children with all kinds of promises too, but then again, every country does that when it's all state-owned.

The Ninth Scribe
 
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Actually, I just wanted to know whether you consider a Palestinian who blows up a bus full of innocent civilians a martyr?
this goes for The Prince too!
 
reasonableph8th said:
Wow... just when I thought my investigation into Islam was wielding some fruit, I see this. **sigh** The book I'm reading (The Religion of Truth) written by Saudi Muslims say that a prisoner of war must be treated kindly... unfortunately, it doesn't reference the Quran or Hadith, but is the book wrong?
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I believe you're right, but The Prince should answer us with the details. He's much more knowledgable about these matters. Gilad Shalit is alive, has been for two years, so that's saying something. He may be depressed, but that's par for the course in that situation. I also have reports from others who were held by the Mujahideen and their stories support the idea that prisoners are not mistreated, at least not by them. One german claimed they had to mess up her hair and smudge her eye make up so she would look like she was being mistreated... and she was smiling when she told that part of her story.

They may be bad-ss, but they have greatness of heart.

The Ninth Scribe
 
Whatsthepoint said:
Actually, I just wanted to know whether you consider a Palestinian who blows up a bus full of innocent civilians a martyr?
this goes for The Prince too!
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I'm a bit too fuzzy on the whole "martyrdom" subject. I'm not hot on the idea myself but if it's been written into Islam, I can't tell these people they're wrong. As things stand, there is a dispute between the scholars concerning the subject, and until every last one of them agrees (one way or the other), it's not legal or illegal. On a personal note, I just bid farewell to Abu Omar al Kuwaiti ~ I wasn't exactly pleased. I hate to see these people leave. But, maybe I'm just being selfish. Also, I'm not clear on the stand about civilians. They way it's presented, if we kill their innocents, they will most certainly kill ours. The chapter and verse of it ~ that's for The Prince. But they do, on certain occassions, offer a Mercy.

mujahid-shahid_2.jpg


The Ninth Scribe
 
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