Hamas leader offers truce if Israel withdraws from 1967 lands

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You mean the Zionists are perfect?

No the Palastinians. Blowing up schoolbuses is "Justified resistance" and machinegunning shoppers is "blessed Jihad"
I'm saying it's easy for a non-muslim, even a jew, to berate the jews, condem their actions and speak out clearly against them.
Who can condem the palastinians? Few westerners unless they want to be labled neo-con facists.
No muslim can condem another it would seem?
 
If you look in the right places, you'll find evidences of a plethora of condemnations, including those of high profile scholars. You'll find books, cassetes and debates on terrorism and refutations of suicide bombing, namely; from the some of the some of the major scholars in Saudi Arabia.

Though it must be said you'll also find arguments in support off. As, after all, all ideologies and religions are subject to different interpretations, including the Jewish treatment of " gentiles". But if you use simpleton arguments based on preconceived prejudices such as " No Muslim can condemn another Muslim: this information will probably be ignored and rendered irrelevant! I would have also thought the Muslims have been doing nothing but apologising and condeming since the events of that particular Tuesday morning( 9/11)!
 
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Obviously some muslims condem palastinian terrorism. i've seen my share of it, and it is by searching in the right places. The conclusions that I draw are that when a small percentage of scholars, bless them, speak ot, theres usually a caveat to their condemnation. "This makes the bombers as bad almost as the Israelis" or "Responding to indescriminate death with indescriminate death is a mistaken tactic"

In my researches and indeed from speaking to people on these very forums. I havnt met a muslim who will just say,"Bombing townships is wrong. period"
 
Where were you and your Jewish scumbags(Zionists) when the blood thirsty Crusaders captured Jerusalem. Did you come to it's defense? Where were you when they slaughtered every inhabitant of the city mercilessly? Where were you? It was us Muslims as in "Salahuddin" who reconquered Jerusalem from the bloody Crusaders.

If you return the land, there would be no suicide bombings in the first place. Occupation leads to terrorism. You keep on building settlements. Where is the right of return of the refugees? 1967 borders?

my point was that the jewish people are more then willing to let the muslims live in israel if they refrain from all acts of terror.furthermore, why would the jewish people give the land back if they took over it the way you muslims took over it.
 
No No the Israelis are doing a fine and dandy job at promoting peace in the region. Much better then the Muslims ever did in history.
 
In my researches and indeed from speaking to people on these very forums. I havnt met a muslim who will just say,"Bombing townships is wrong. period"
well it is all patently wrong!.. that is just not good warfare, at least not khalid ibn ilwaleed style and far are we from the days of chivalry!

Be that as it may, we are at war with the colonial settler zionist state and view them as the enemy.. they simply won't dissolve into our land and all is forgot..
There is really nothing to apologize for or condemn.. I don't even see why there is room for discussion?
you should have these topics on Israeli forums, ask them of the U.S.S liberty, the bombing of king David hotel the British 'good will ambassadors' that helped them with their illegal state, ask them of the Lavon affair, ask them of the Haganah irgun and stern gang.. ask them why since the U.S is their greatest friend and ally, not to mention major funnler of tax payers money while loads die of starvation every day in Africa, do they still feel the need to spy http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/27/fbi.spy/
FBI looks at Pentagon worker in Israel spy probe

and then we can speak of Muslim disapprobation of these vile acts..


cheers
 
Hey can someone let me occupy their house.............they can get the toilet? Yeah they can live in the toilet...while i occupy their house. Good deal for me, we should be able to live in peace.
 
well my dear son.....................its seems to me that you lack the ability to what people call " to read between the lines" and as such i shall, all in the sense of helping others, attempt to spell it out to you. so here it goes......
you(as in the muslims) took it by force.........then we took it back........and thats how the world is......so deal with it. furthermore, i would like to add that if the arabs stop blowing themselves up the jewish people would more then be happy to return the gesture and let you live in their land.

you stupid zionist you think you sound smart with your Condescending language?

just today 4 palestinian children were killed, offcourse thats okay right? keep talking too big for your head because the zionist down fall will come one day, and indeed that is how the world works, the oppressed rise and kick the a$$ of the savage barbaric oppressor and occupyer who murder children and mothers on a daily basis then turn around and act like they are the peaceful ones and the victims.

secondly you peon with a worms brain the land isnt theirs, get me one of these zionists and I CHALLENGE YOU TO ASK THEM WHERE THEIR GRANDFATHER AND GREAT GRANDFATHER WERE BORN, not one of them will say palestine, it will either be Iran, Morroco, or somewhere in Europe.

the land was never yours, and never will be yours, and we will take it back one day from you scum bag phsyo muderers, so dont worry keep talking like a jacka$$ we will see who has the last laugh when ur face is under our boots.
 
ok they have asked so cant go back but after this i dont think they should ask for any truce. they have asked before enough and israel has been ruling the roost so before it becomes begging they should tell israel bascially ......... you we dont and cant have peace. no more asking.
 
Given how censor happy this board has been in the past, I am shocked that this thread has not been closed. People are starting to make threats in here...

As for me, I can see fault on both sides. I've got no horse in this race, so I can look at this objectively and see that both Israel and Palestinians are acting poorly and shoulder their share of blame.

I can't respect palestinians so long as they engage in terrorist activity.

I can't respect Israel so long as it has a population of people contained in concentrated areas and not given equal status and voting rightsl Either give Palestine its own country or make all palestinains equal citizens. As it is now, this is complete repression and its shocking that the media manages to warp people around the world into thinking otherwise.
 
Given how censor happy this board has been in the past, I am shocked that this thread has not been closed. People are starting to make threats in here...

As for me, I can see fault on both sides. I've got no horse in this race, so I can look at this objectively and see that both Israel and Palestinians are acting poorly and shoulder their share of blame.

I can't respect palestinians so long as they engage in terrorist activity.

I can't respect Israel so long as it has a population of people contained in concentrated areas and not given equal status and voting rightsl Either give Palestine its own country or make all palestinains equal citizens. As it is now, this is complete repression and its shocking that the media manages to warp people around the world into thinking otherwise.

On the issue of citizenship, why would a state grant that status to a segment of the population who are obviously hostile to that state? It would be like giving Hamas IDs and an open window to attack Israeli citizens in Israel proper. Not exactly a smart strategy in the context of protecting Israeli citizens.

Of course, the Palestinians want their own state(supposedly), so granting them citizenship wouldn't solve much except to create the problem I mentioned above.
 

I can't respect palestinians so long as they engage in terrorist activity
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what a sad image

what a sad excuse

you as a muslim should know that suicide is not justifiable, it goes against our beliefs

Life is precious and is a gift from Allah (swt) and should not be taken lightly

Someday the oppression will end, but your graphic will not be the path to that
 
what a sad image

what a sad excuse

you as a muslim should know that suicide is not justifiable, it goes against our beliefs

Life is precious and is a gift from Allah (swt) and should not be taken lightly

Someday the oppression will end, but your graphic will not be the path to that

I don't believe in suicide bombing but sadly that was the only image i had that fit well as are response. The last picture should be of a hamas member, armed to fight back as legitimate resistance and not "terrorism" as the occupiers call it.
 
well it is all patently wrong!.. that is just not good warfare, at least not khalid ibn ilwaleed style and far are we from the days of chivalry!

Be that as it may, we are at war with the colonial settler zionist state and view them as the enemy.. they simply won't dissolve into our land and all is forgot..
There is really nothing to apologize for or condemn.. I don't even see why there is room for discussion?
you should have these topics on Israeli forums, ask them of the U.S.S liberty, the bombing of king David hotel the British 'good will ambassadors' that helped them with their illegal state, ask them of the Lavon affair, ask them of the Haganah irgun and stern gang.. ask them why since the U.S is their greatest friend and ally, not to mention major funnler of tax payers money while loads die of starvation every day in Africa, do they still feel the need to spy http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/27/fbi.spy/
FBI looks at Pentagon worker in Israel spy probe

and then we can speak of Muslim disapprobation of these vile acts..


cheers

Not "Your Land" You used to share it. The "World Government" gave it to Israel.
Fine , your at war. Then attack. Get attacking the IDF. Fight like soldiers and not like terrorists.
I do ask those questions on Jewish forums actually. I am a spammer of many forums. They can no more justify the Stern Gangs actions than they can bulldozing a house they know has a family in it, or a Palastinian can justify shooting up a school.

Starvation in Africa? Whats that got to do with the subject?? Whilst you mention it, who is Africas biggest donator of aid? What do the Muslim Nations do for africa?
America spys on everyone. Evryone spys on Evryone. Potrugal spies on Venuzuala, Egypt spys on Sweden. Crikey! Get some geopolitical knowlage already.

What you could condem is the slaughtering of innocent kids. With a nice easy simple, no-caveat condemnation. Can you do that?
 
Not "Your Land" You used to share it. The "World Government" gave it to Israel.
'world government' has no jurisprudence over Muslim land!


Fine , your at war. Then attack. Get attacking the IDF. Fight like soldiers and not like terrorists.
that is funny ain't it? considering whether elected or not, they are deemed terrorists.. I think you got your wires crossed.. Hamas are what the people want.. that is democracy so deal with it!
I do ask those questions on Jewish forums actually. I am a spammer of many forums. They can no more justify the Stern Gangs actions than they can bulldozing a house they know has a family in it, or a Palastinian can justify shooting up a school.
lol.. alot of good that does.. they can't justify it, but do it anyway and on daily basis.. surely you can find yourself some vids from youtube that will not make it to fox.. or would you like some samples of daily atrocities??

Starvation in Africa? Whats that got to do with the subject?? Whilst you mention it, who is Africas biggest donator of aid? What do the Muslim Nations do for africa?

gee I don't know.. seems oxymoronic to receive aid and still be starving no? what does it have to do with the subject?.. I say plenty, for starters a conundrum really why my tax money gets funneled to foster an illegal settler state, while averting responsibility toward poorer countries, that are actually in need of aid!
as for doing charity, last I am told, it counts more when you are quiet about it, not by wearing a negligé and flaunting it on an award show for benefaction.

America spys on everyone. Evryone spys on Evryone. Potrugal spies on Venuzuala, Egypt spys on Sweden. Crikey! Get some geopolitical knowlage already.
You are a funny 'man' I don't think you are suited for anything save hosting children's parties, if you can actually manage not to send the little tots afright! I think you are clueless as to what is going on in your own backyard, let alone the rest of the world!

What you could condem is the slaughtering of innocent kids. With a nice easy simple, no-caveat condemnation. Can you do that?
Are they innocent only when they are israeli? frankly, it is very difficult to arouse any feelings short of complete disgust for folks who fancy they are the only ones to be regarded as human beings!

cheers
 
I don't believe in suicide bombing but sadly that was the only image i had that fit well as are response. The last picture should be of a hamas member, armed to fight back as legitimate resistance and not "terrorism" as the occupiers call it.

i can agree with that, thank you for the clarification :)
 
'world government' has no jurisprudence over Muslim land!



that is funny ain't it? considering whether elected or not, they are deemed terrorists.. I think you got your wires crossed.. Hamas are what the people want.. that is democracy so deal with it!

lol.. alot of good that does.. they can't justify it, but do it anyway and on daily basis.. surely you can find yourself some vids from youtube that will not make it to fox.. or would you like some samples of daily atrocities??



gee I don't know.. seems oxymoronic to receive aid and still be starving no? what does it have to do with the subject?.. I say plenty, for starters a conundrum really why my tax money gets funneled to foster an illegal settler state, while averting responsibility toward poorer countries, that are actually in need of aid!
as for doing charity, last I am told, it counts more when you are quiet about it, not by wearing a negligé and flaunting it on an award show for benefaction.


You are a funny 'man' I don't think you are suited for anything save hosting children's parties, if you can actually manage not to send the little tots afright! I think you are clueless as to what is going on in your own backyard, let alone the rest of the world!


Are they innocent only when they are israeli? frankly, it is very difficult to arouse any feelings short of complete disgust for folks who fancy they are the only ones to be regarded as human beings!

cheers

So Muslims are exempt from the Decisions of the rest of the world? Yeah, I know Israel is breaking UN resolutions. Thats to be condemned too. At least theyre putting up excuses for it rather than saying "Who is the world to tell us anything...we are not party to their rulings" as you say.

As i have said before, They are being deemed terrorists because the alternative is to accept that the Government of a forign nation is making war on them.
The time honoured way to do that is to retaliate with the countrys military.
If israel does that then we would have a five or six day campaign with thousands of muslim dead and the palastinians would be back over the border into Jordan and eygpt. Jordan kicked them out years ago for all the trouble and deaths they caused. Your saying you want a proper war. its a war that would end in disaster for the palastinians. easy to say if your not a palastinian, but the whole nation exists on israels restraint.Despite being attacked by a foriegn power.
If France was lobbing symbolic rockets of resistance against the UK, we wouldnt simply take out the Government ministers as they drove home from work with guided missiles. There would be landings on the beach and regime toppeling.

Israel cant justify the bulldozing of a house with kids in it. They can justify the buldozing of a house if they havnt got a UN resolution forbidding it.
They however pulled out of several settlements last year. Did that stop the attacks? Not a jot. I refuse to support any israeli atrocity. I support their right to defend themselves.

The Starving palastinians. Who is starving them? The israeli's who for years have provided them with everything. They have provided themselves with pretty much nothing except ammo. The USA,UK, Germany etc will give $1200 of money for each $1 the Arab nations give. Iraq , Syria, Iran, Saudi, they all gave aid to palastine. $20000 to families of suicide bombers. Hey! Become a martyer, gain paradise and your family get 200 years pay in one lump sum.
Hungry palastinians? Dont worry! Your brothers will give you all the 7.62mm ammo you can eat. Stick the brass cartriges together and make a school!

My attempts at Kids parties failed badly after i ate the cake and then the Kids in rapid sucession, I intend to stick to my career of being live bait at Gator world.

Palastinian Kids are innocent victims, even when from morning time they are preached hatred, go to school to read about murdering, stop for prayers to kill the jews and come home to relax to the Pioneers of Tommorow on TV. Despite this , its the Adults fault for feeding them hatred. Take a look at comparisons between Israeli kids schoolbooks and the pallys books. See for yourself what they are taught. Getting fed this diet is no excuse for an IDF mistake killing them. It's no good saying "isnt their blood worth as much", when you beleive a jewish childs is worth less.
 
I read alot of preachy blah blah blah from a clueless man.. I think the best response for posts like these are equally voluminous ones with some actual fact in lieu of your subjective opinion..

Myths and Realities about Israel



Myth No. 1: About UN Partition Resolution
The UN voted in 1947 to create the State of Israel in the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. Israel accepted the compromise while the Arabs rejected it.

REALITY: The 1947 UN resolution is a General Assembly resolution, not a Security Council resolution. The UN General Assembly can only make recommendations. Recommendations have no obligatory character. Member states are free to accept or reject them.
Israel’s apologists are quick to say that Israel accepted this compromise. The Partition Plan granted 52% of Palestine to the Jews who were 30% of the population and owned no more than 6% of the land. This is a net gain on the part of Israel, not a compromise.
Israel’s apologists are quick to claim that the Arabs started the 1948 war. Ben-Gurion himself in Rebirth and Destiny of Israel wrote: “Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad” (p. 530). Israel’s military activity started well before any attack by the Arab armies.
Israel’s apologists are quick to accuse Jordan of occupying and annexing what is now called the West Bank. While not a single Arab soldier entered the area allotted to Israel in the UN resolution, Israel occupied and annexed areas in excess of what was allotted to it in the UN Partition Plan. These areas include, among other areas, the Arab cities of Nazareth, Jaffa, Acre, Lydda and Ramleh. Thus Israel expanded from 52% to 78%.
Moreover, according to the UN Partition Plan, 49% of the population of the Jewish state was supposed to be Arabs. Through a war of ethnic cleansing this percentage was reduced to 12%. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was the result of a deliberate master plan, code named Plan Dalet.
In light of all the above, it is ludicrous to pretend that Israel accepted UN General Assembly Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947.



Myth No. 2: About Annexation
The military occupation of Palestinian territories has never been converted by Israel into an annexation.

REALITY: Immediately after the 1967 war, the Israeli government issued an order declaring that an area comprising the Old City of Jerusalem and some adjacent territory should be subject to the law, jurisdiction and administration of Israel. Thus Israel expanded municipal East Jerusalem from 6 km2 to 73 km2 of the West Bank. Furthermore, Jewish colonization of East Jerusalem went beyond the extended municipal boundaries to include what Israel calls Greater and Metropolitan Jerusalem comprising 330 km2 and 665 km2, respectively.
The Annexation of the Old City of Jerusalem was carried out under the Law and Administration Ordinance (Amendment No. 11 of June 27, 1967). Not only did Israel annex East Jerusalem but it also feverishly worked toward the judaization of its population by expropriating Arab land to build Jewish settlements.
As for the rest of the occupied territories, the real reason for not annexing them is the racist nature of the Zionist state. The only way for Israel to annex the occupied territories is by cleansing them of their indigenous inhabitants, following the pattern of 1948 (see Myth No. 1 above).
Furthermore, on December 14, 1981, Israel officialy annexed the Golan Heights. The legislation, extending Israeli law to the area of the Golan Heights was adopted by the Knesset by a majority of 63 against 21.



Myth No. 3: Jordan attacked first
Israel in 1967 notified Jordan that it wished to maintain non-belligerent policy between the two states and that Jordan nevertheless attacked Israel.

REALITY: “The pretence that Israel would not attack Jordan is belied by the secret decision adopted by the Israeli cabinet on June 4, 1967 (which was made public on June 4, 1972) to attack Egypt, Syria and Jordan on the following day” (Henry Cattan, Jerusalem, p.69).
Also, Israel was well aware that Jordan signed on May 30, 1967 a defense pact with Egypt, allowing Egyptians to take command of the Jordanian army.



Myth No. 4: Recognizing and making peace with Israel
When Egypt recognized and made peace with Israel in 1979 the entire Sinai was returned to Egypt.

REALITY: The purpose of such a statement is to give the impression that Israel is willing to withdraw from the land it occupied in exchange for peace. The return of the entire Sinai would be a proof of that. In this context, the name of Anwar Sadat is mentioned.
Jimmy Carter’s memoirs: Keeping the Faith: Memoirs of a President shatters this impression. Menachem Begin did not want to withdraw from the entire Sinai. For Israel to come to it senses, it necessitated the pressures that only an American President could have applied.
For Israel’s apologists to say that when the Palestinian Authority agreed to recognize and negotiate with Israel, Israel began to “transfer control of West Bank lands” is further evidence that Israel’s goal is not to achieve with the Palestinians a peace resembling the peace with Egypt, (the withdrawal from the entire occupied territories, similar to its withdrawal from the entire Sinai), but to establish another form of occupation.
Israel's defenders claim that by mid-2000 more than 90% of the Arab population of the West Bank and more than 25% of its land were under complete Palestinian control. This only demonstrates what Israel is really after: an indigenous authority controlling its indigenous population, while Israel continues to build Jewish settlements in the remaining 75% of Palestinian land. The result of such policy is the establishment of numerous disconnected Palestinian enclaves (bantustans) in a sea of settlements rendering the free movement of the Palestinians difficult, if not impossible.



Myth No. 5: Barak’s “unprecedented offer”
Israel made an “unprecedented offer” consisting of giving back 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza. Jerusalem itself would be partitioned into Israeli and Palestinians sectors.

REALITY: The Jerusalem that is being referred to here is just the Old City of Jerusalem, not the entire East and West Jerusalems. Not only will Israel keep West Jerusalem but it also wants to partition East Jerusalem. The Palestinians, by the way, accepted to give Israel sovereignty over the Jewish holy places, something that the Israelis refused to give to the Palestinians. They rather talked about “religious sovereignty” over Haram al-Sahrif, and “autonomy” over the Christians and Muslims quarters.
The 95% of the West Bank referred to is in fact 95% minus the expanded municipal boundaries of Jerusalem, that Israel has already annexed (see Myth No. 2 above), which makes Barak’s offer more like 85% of all the West Bank.
Furthermore, the so-called Palestinian state that would have been created according to the “unprecedented offer” would have control neither over its natural resources nor over it air space (For more details see: Camp David mythology)



Myth No. 6: Israel never target civilians
Israel does not deliberately target civilians.

REALITY: How else can we qualify dropping a 2,000 pound bomb on an apartment building in a civilian neighborhood supposedly to kill one “terrorist leader”?
Also, a Jan. 3, 2003 editorial in The Washington Post had this to say: “Israeli paramilitary forces have reportedly been operating something they call ‘the lottery,’ in which they detain Palestinians and order them to choose from pieces of paper labeled with punishments such as ‘broken leg’ and ‘smashed head.’ The practice was reported by an Israeli newspaper on Dec. 22, more than a week before Amran Abu Hamediye was beaten to death.” This is what a self-censorship press revealed. What is not being reported must be even worse.



Myth No. 7: The “only democracy”
Israel is the “only democracy” in the Middle East.

REALITY: How many times have Israel’s apologists repeated this slogan? In fact, Israel is not a democracy by Western standards. Not a single Western democracy occupies another people’s land, rules another people and subjects them to all kinds of humiliations, torture and mistreatment. Israel indeed is a democracy, but a democracy by Zionist standards, just as South Africa, under the White minority rule, was a democracy by apartheid standards. It is true that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship have the right to vote in Israel. So are all the citizens of the Arab countries. This however doesn’t make them democracies. In Israel, there is no equality between Jews and non-Jews. In a Jewish state, Jews are more equal than non-Jews. It has always been that way and unless Israel becomes the country of all its citizens, it will lack the characteristics of a Western democracy.

No justice in Israeli peace plan

presented at Camp David by Ehud Barak





It has been repeatedly said, as Dean Ungar put it in his Aug. 16 letter, that “the Palestinians rejected the most sweeping peace proposal ever offered by an Israeli government.”

Israel and its supporters should understand that the peace proposal whether it was the most sweeping or not is not the issue. The issue is that of justice. The issue is that Israel should comply with UN resolutions. But this is the last thing Israel wants. “Justice” never crossed Barak’s mind in Camp David. “Justice” is never mentioned in his Op-Ed piece in the New York Times (July 30, 2001). As for complying with UN resolutions, Barak wrote that his offer “would have satisfied UN Security Council Resolution 242 and 338 as interpreted by the international community.” In his mind, the international community is probably made up of columnits like George Will, Cal Thomas or Charles Krauthammer.

Instead of just referring to this “offer” and characterizing it as “generous” or “unprecedented,” as some other apologists of Israel put it, it would have been more fitting that they tell us what this offer consisted of. But this is something they dare not do because it would expose its true nature: another form of occupation. Ed Krauss’s letter of Aug. 18 is a case in point.

First of all, this “most sweeping peace proposal” was never presented in writing, let alone accompanied with any maps. It was orally conveyed, which is a strange way of conducting serious negotiations.

Second, this “generous” offer consisted of dividing the West Bank into three separate cantons surrounded by Israel. So not only would the Palestinians have to cross Israel to go from the West Bank to Gaza, but also to go from one canton to another within the West Bank. Such an arrangement would have made the future Palestinian state less viable than the Bantustans created by the South African apartheid government. See map drawn up according to information from the Palestinian delegation. See map drawn up according to information from the Israeli delegation.

Third, according to this “unprecedented” offer, Israel would annex 9 percent of the West Bank in exchange of 1 percent of its own territory. In addition, it would control 10 percent of the West Bank in the form of a “long-term lease.” This area would mainly be located along the Jordan River, which meant that Israel would also control Palestine’s international borders. Furthermore, Israel “offered” to control the air space and the water resources of the new Palestinian state.

On the sensitive issue of the refugees, the proposal spoke only of a “satisfactory solution.” On East Jerusalem, the proposal allowed Palestinian sovereignty on isolated Palestinian neighborhoods, which meant that these neighborhoods would not only be separated from each other but also from the Palestinian state. As for the Haram al-Sharif, the Palestinians would only have custody over it.

By what measure can these proposals be considered fair? As Robert Malley, member of the American team in the Camp David summit, put it in his Op-Ed piece in the New York Times (July 8, 2001), “the measure of Israel’s concessions ought not be how far it has moved from its own starting point, but how far it has moved toward a fair solution.” Given the above, these proposals are anything but fair. They perpetuate the occupation, albeit under another form, they do not allow the establishment of a viable Palestinian state and they sow the seeds of another conflict.

Another point that is often made is that the Palestinians didn’t make any concessions. This is not true. The Palestinian made the ultimate compromise, which is to recognize Israeli sovereignty over 78 percent of historic Palestine. What the Israelis wanted them to do is to compromise the compromise, to compromise the remaining 22 percent. What the Palestinians could not have done was to compromise their fundamental rights and the establishment of a viable state.

Moreover, the Palestinians accepted that Israel annex parts of West Bank territories to accommodate the settlements in exchange of an equivalent amount of Israeli land. They accepted that Israel exercise sovereignty over Jerusalem’s Jewish quarter and the Wailing Wall. They accepted that refugees exercise their right of return in a way that would not affect Israel’s demographic and security interests. Barak, however, declared that Israel bore no responsibility for the refugee problem and its solution.

It is utterly wrong, misleading and unseemly to suggest that the Palestinians at Camp David kept saying “no” or did not present any concession. It is up to the Israelis, the party that holds all the cards, to decide whether they want a genuine peace based on justice or an indefinite conflict.

August 30, 2001
2. U.S. should see to its own needs
Even though the analysis of Ellen Singer (a member of the executive board of American for a Safe Israel) (letter of February 9), according to which "Israel gets only about $800 million to bolster its economy," is, at best, questionable, and, at worst, completely erroneous, let us, just for the sake of argument, suppose it is right. Ms. Singer's line of reasoning is that "more than 80 percent" of the military aid to Israel is "spent largely in the United States" and thus "responsible for creating thousands of jobs for Americans at U.S. corporations."

In 1985, Israel mobilized its U.S. lobby to block F-15 aircraft sales to the Saudis. They turned to the U.K. to buy instead the Tornados. In the same period, U.S. unwillingness (guess why?) to sell the short-range Lance missile led directly to Saudi purchase of the intermediate-range DF-3A (CSS-2) ballistic missile form China. Not only, because of Israel, did the United States lose billions of dollars and "thousands of jobs for American at U.S. corporations" but, more importantly, it lost whatever leverage it might have had since the Saudis purchased more dangerous equipment with fewer constraints attached.

As for the concept of Israel as a "strategic ally in the Middle East," if it had ever been true, it will soon be obsolete or irrelevant when the process of democratization in Eastern Europe becomes a permanent reality. In any case, the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza by Israel reduces its ability to be a strategic asset.

The main purpose of foreign aid is to promote and serve U.S. interests in the world, not that of the Saudis or the Israelis. U.S. and Israeli interests cannot possibly be identical; if they were, Israel would have been the 51st state of the Union.

March 1, 1990
9. Alliance with Israel a liability
The $3.5 billion Israel receives from the United States, which is actually $4 billion, is not part of a loan on which Israel pays interest. It is an outright grant. The larger figure results from the 43 special laws Congress has passed solely for the benefit of Israel. Two reports by Congressional Research Studies published in the Congressional Record of May 1 give a full picture of all the special deals that benefit Israel.

In spite of all the good things Joy Greenhouse is telling us about Israel in her September 16 letter, Israel is still a liability in this crisis because the moment it takes a military action, the equation will change and chances are that the whole Arab world will rally behind Saddam Hussein.

David Menashi tries hard in his September 19 letter to perpetuate the myth that Israel is "the United States' only reliable ally in the region." Let's look at the facts:

In 1954, Israel agents firebombed American diplomatic establishments in Cairo and Alexandria to undermine the relations between the U.S. and Egypt; in the mid-1960s, Mossad was responsible for diverting uranium from the Nuclear Materials and Equipments Corp. in Apollo, Pa.; in 1967, Israeli war planes attempted to sink the U.S. intelligence ship Liberty, causing the death of 34 American seamen and 171 injuries; in 1986, Jonathan Pollard, a U.S. Navy counterintelligence specialist, was caught after stealing thousands of highly classified documents for Israel; and finally, Victor Ostrovsky's book, By Way of Deception, states that Mossad knew about terrorist plans in 1983 to bomb the barracks in Beirut where 241 American Marines died, but failed to give proper warning, saying: "We're not there to protect Americans. They're a big country."

What kind of an ally is that?

September 28, 1990

my bad.. my computer crashed before I could ammend this.. but you get the general pic.. get read up first and then we can talk...
cheers

L i n k s

Organizations
UN Information System on the Question of Palestine: http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF?OpenDatabase
Washington Report on Middle East Affairs: http://www.washington-report.org
American Arab Anti Discrimination Committee: http://www.adc.org
Americans for Middle East Understanding: http://members.aol.com/ameulink/index.html
Council for National Interst: http://www.cnionline.org
Arab American Roman Catholic Community: http://www.albushra.org
Mid-East Realities: http://www.MiddleEast.org
Bat Shalom of the Jerusalem Link: http://www.batshalom.org
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories: http://www.btselem.org
Middle East Research and Information Project: http://www.merip.org
USS Liberty: http://www.halcyon.com/jim/ussliberty

Individuals
The Edward Said Archive: http://www.leb.net/tesa
The Chomsky Archive: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/index.cfm
Norman Finkelstein: http://www.normanfinkelstein.com
Truth, Justice and Human Right in the the Middle East: http://www.mideastfacts.com
Ali Abunimah: uncovering media myths about the Middle East: http://www.abunimah.org/
 
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The Voluminaritiness of posts is best not compared. I bow to your cut and paste skills and I thank you for the inclusion of your My Favorites Folder.

Chomsky is on my faves too as is the Hamas website and several other Palastinian ones.

I wasnt wishing to debate the validity of Israel or the lack of practical ummah support.
I was simply seeing if a straight "yeah, killing kids is bad" response could be gained.
Since it can't, theres not much more to be typed. :(
 
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