Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

[Walter]

Hi GreyKode:

I find the problem is that you are sticking only to quotes from the Qur'an that are apparently preferred by the author of your book
There is the following verse that shows the position of the Qur'an on the book of the Jews:
"Wa menna allatheena hado yuharrifuna al kalema an mawadi'ih "
"And from those who are yahud they change the original meanings of the words of the book "
And there are other verses as well...
See now who is dismissing the facts.

We appear to have a difference in interpreting the verse.

I am interpreting it to mean that the sheets being displayed are accurate copies of what God revealed to Moses. However, the Jewish teachers are not teaching much of what is written on the sheets.

You are interpreting it to mean that the Jews only copied a little of what God revealed to Moses.

Let us examine the verse (6:91) again using more than one translator.

YUSUFALI: No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

PICKTHAL: And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.

SHAKIR: And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much? And you were taught what you did not know, (neither) you nor your fathers. Say: Allah then leave them sporting in their vain discourses.​

Yusuf Ali believed that the copies were complete “while ye conceal much (of its contents)”.

Pickthal believed that the copies were complete “which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof)”.

Shakir believed that the copies were complete “which you show while you conceal much”.

I acknowledge that Pickthall and Shakir’s translations lend themselves to more than one interpretation. However, Yusuf Ali’s translation is clear. The sheets wee complete but the Jewish teachers did not teach most of what was written in the sheets.

It DOESN'T say copy, it says do as they did, follow their path, their path as explained in the Qur'an.

Again, we have a difference in interpretation of 6:90, so let us examine evidence from more than one translator.

YUSUFALI: Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

PICKTHAL: Those are they whom Allah guideth, so follow their guidance. Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee for it. Lo! it is naught but a Reminder to (His) creatures.

SHAKIR: These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. Say: I do not ask you for any reward for it; it is nothing but a reminder to the nations.​

Both Pickthal and Shakir translate the word as “follow” while Yusuf translates the word “copy”. We note that all three note that the action (copying or following) appears to normally attract a reward or fee. It is reasonable to assume that copying the document seems to be a better translation, given the context, than “follow”.

Grenville: Further, the Biblical scriptures that were available during Mohammed’s lifetime, which he encouraged his followers to believe, are available to us today.

GreyKode: I disagree.​

You disagree that the Bibles that were around during the time of Mohammed are available to us today. Please note that the Bible was formally compiled approximately 200 years before the birth of Mohammed, during the reign of Constantine, and it was copied and distributed widely, including to the churches in Syria, Ethopia, and Egypt. The following manuscripts have been found.
• The Septuagint was translated between 3rd and 1st century BC. It is a Greek version of the Old Testament.
• The Codex Sinaiticus is dated circa 350 AD. The New Testament section is located in the British Library, the Old Testament sections are located in St Catherine’s Monastery (Sinai, Egypt), Leipzig University Library (Germany), and the National Library of Russia (St Petersburg). The book contains the entire Old Testament (Septuagint version), the New Testament, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Epistle of Barnabas.
• The Codex Vaticanus, dated c.350 AD, is located in the Vatican Library. This Bible contains most of the Old Testament (Septuagint version) and the New Testament.
• The Codex Alexandrinus, dated before 500 AD, is located in the British Library. This book contains most of the Old Testament (Septuagint version) and all of the New Testament, in addition to First and Second Clement.

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls between 1947 and 1956, which contain several books also contained in the Old Testament and written before 0 AD, confirm the accuracy of the copies that we have today.

I am telling you all you got is some qoutes from the Qur'an cherrypicked by the author of the book to serve his point of view and you didn't read the rest of the Qur'an yourself, Adam(pbuh) neither father nor mother, Jesus(pbuh) no father, see the relationship now, who is more unique?

OK GreyKode. I agree that Adam had neither father nor mother. However, I disagree that this makes him unique. Did not the first created: ape, monkey, sheep, lizard, dog etc have no mother of father. However, only Jesus had a virgin birth making Him unique. Lease note that I have read the Qur’an several times.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

It is also an undisputed fact that one can reconstruct the original from the manuscripts we have.

Not undisputed, as you can very clearly see that there are people here who disputed it. But you are right, it is believed that through the science of textual criticism scholars have been able to deconstruct the changes that took place to the text over time and thus are able to also reconstruct a text that they are confident reproduces the original text. But for integrity's sake, I hasten to add that the level of confidence with regard to those particular passages that are disputed does very (from "virtually certain" to "some degree of doubt" to "considerable degree of doubt" to even in a few cases "a high degree of doubt") with regard to whether the selected variant for a disputed passage "commends itself as original." The Greek text published by the United Bible Societies makes note of a total of 450 of these disputed passages in the entire New Testament, impacting on less than 1/3 of 1% of the verses of the New Testament.

 

[YusufNoor]

Not undisputed, as you can very clearly see that there are people here who disputed it. But you are right, it is believed that through the science of textual criticism scholars have been able to deconstruct the changes that took place to the text over time and thus are able to also reconstruct a text that they are confident reproduces the original text. But for integrity's sake, I hasten to add that the level of confidence with regard to those particular passages that are disputed does very (from "virtually certain" to "some degree of doubt" to "considerable degree of doubt" to even in a few cases "a high degree of doubt") with regard to whether the selected variant for a disputed passage "commends itself as original." The Greek text published by the United Bible Societies makes note of a total of 450 of these disputed passages in the entire New Testament, impacting on less than 1/3 of 1% of the verses of the New Testament.

is the "the Greek text published by the United Bible Societies" known for giving fewer text critical variants than other texts such as Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece (27th edition revised; German Bible Society)? and does the Nestle-Aland cite significantly more variants?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't know. I don't have my Nestle-Aland text in the office. I'll try to remember to dig out of my library at home and see if I can answer that for you.

 

[Humbler_359]

Let's keep going like this :argue::argue:

Honestly, I am aware your trinity believing is a system of false doctrine written by Paul 30-50 years later after Jesus died.

Your intention is to overcome this accusation and make many nonsense claims that Islam is maybe false in your view. Our brothers and sisters here are doing best to refute and counter their claims, we make them understand the meaning of Islam vs Bible.......Still they didn't learn nothing and defend themselves.

Wasting our times and energy again :hmm:

Then keep going........:argue:

Conside this: Please focus our valuable times increasing on Imaan, knowledges, and deens. Avoid these clown people!

 

[Hugo]

How do you know what the originals look like when you don't have them?

Yes you have a point but this applies to the Qu'ran also, you don't have the originals so you cannot know what they looked like. One supposes that for a Muslim the true original was an oral one from the mouth of Gabriel and it is undisputed that you don't have that.

 

[Hugo]

Let's keep going like this. Honestly, I am aware your trinity believing is a system of false doctrine written by Paul 30-50 years later after Jesus died.

Your intention is to overcome this accusation and make many nonsense claims that Islam is maybe false in your view. Our brothers and sisters here are doing best to refute and counter their claims, we make them understand the meaning of Islam vs Bible.......Still they didn't learn nothing and defend themselves. Wasting our times and energy again. Then keep going........

Conside this: Please focus our valuable times increasing on Imaan, knowledges, and deens. Avoid these clown people!

"When the Qur'an is read, Listen to it with attention, And hold your peace: That ye may receive Mercy" ~ 7:204

"Then do ye remember Me; I will remember You. Be grateful to Me, And reject not Faith. ~ 2:152

How Islam started 1400 years ago?- see Youtube

Let us state the position fairly here, YOU have the opinion that the doctrine of the Trinity was written or as I think you imply invented by Paul - have you taken the trouble to read through the New Testament and form your own opinion? You opinion is your own of course and I have no issue with that but it does not make your claim a fact.

You say you want to increase you Imaan but one is hardly going to do it without some thought and knowledge of and your own and other people's faith. Even here one would wonder if you know much about Islamic doctrine to point to a site that says Islam started 1,400 years ago.

 

[Humbler_359]

Yes you have a point but this applies to the Qu'ran also, you don't have the originals so you cannot know what they looked like. One supposes that for a Muslim the true original was an oral one from the mouth of Gabriel and it is undisputed that you don't have that.

Hugo,

Thank you for pointing finger at Qur'an. Read it more please that maybe help you more knowledgable. Here's information. Source


Has the Qur'an Changed?

Thank you for your challenging question.

In fact, there are different ways to prove that the Qur'an is the word of God, which has always been true and has never been subjected to change or distortion. These proofs can be classified into three types: the way the Qur'an was transmitted throughout the centuries, some challenging verses within the Qur'an itself, and the periodic, modern-day discoveries in the universe that were first mentioned in the Qur'an more than fourteen centuries ago.

Unlike the Bible and Old Testament that have been subject to innumerable translations, doubtful and spurious transmissions, and corruptions at the hands of clerics up till now (with the “gender sensitive” versions coming out these days), the Qur'an was transmitted to us in an unprecedented and unique manner according to rigorous rules of transmission. The Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel, and the Prophet subsequently memorized the whole scripture.

Thousands of the Companions of the Prophet learned the Qur'an directly from the Prophet (pbuh). They memorized it and were known in Islamic history as huffaadh (the memorizers and preservers of the Qur'an). Moreover, a number of Companions wrote it down during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and it was compiled in its entirety immediately after his death.

The following generation of Muslims learned the Qur’an directly from the Companions. Thus the chain of teaching and learning through direct contact continued systematically, methodically, and meticulously until the present age.

Additionally, several of the Companions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) were appointed as scribes to record the words of the revelation directly from the Prophet himself on parchment, leather, or whatever else was available. The most famous of these scribes was Zayd ibn Thabit, who also memorized the entire Qur’an, and he formed with the others a community of huffaadh that can be compared to academic societies of our present time.

We know the Qur’an was recorded in totality during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh) and the different surahs (chapters) personally arranged by him. Many copies of the text were used for study and teaching, even in Mecca before the Hijrah, the migration to Medina.

The entire Qur’an was written down during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, and trusting the fact that many scholars knew it by heart, it was not collected in one volume. It was personally arranged by him, and the Muslims memorized it in the same order. The companion Uthman reported that whenever a new verse was revealed, the Prophet would immediately call a scribe to record it. He would instruct the person to put the specific verse or verses in a particular chapter.

Furthermore, every year during the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole Qur’an from beginning to end in its present-day arrangement, and everyday people could hear it from his own lips in the mosque. Its sequence is no mystery. Many of the Companions not only memorized it completely, they also wrote it down and even added commentary (tafseer) on their own personal copies. When the Prophet passed away, the whole Qur’an was already written down, but it was not yet compiled in book form.

During the rule of the first Caliph Abu Bakr, there was a rebellion among some distant Arab tribes that resulted in a series of fierce battles. In one particular battle, a number Companions who had memorized the Qur’an were killed. The Companion Omar worried that the knowledge of the Qur’an was in danger, thus he convinced Abu Bakr that the Qur’an should be compiled into book form as a means of preserving it once and for all.

Zayd bin Thabit was entrusted with this important task. Zayd followed strict methods in his compilation and had dozens of other huffaadh recheck his work to ensure its accuracy. Abu Bakr, who had also committed the entire Qur’an to memory, approved of the final product. After Abu Bakr passed away, the copy was passed to the Caliph ‘Omar, and then Uthman.

However as the Muslim world expanded into lands where the people spoke Arabic as a second language, the new Muslims had a difficult time learning the correct pronunciation of the text. The Caliph Uthman consulted other Companions, and they agreed that official copies of the Qur’an should be inscribed using only the pronunciation of the Quraysh tribe, the Arabic dialect that the Prophet spoke.

Zayd bin Thabit was again given this assignment, and three other huffaadh were assigned to help him in the task. Together, the four scribes borrowed the original, complete copy of the Qur’an, duplicated it manually many times over, and then distributed them to all of the major Muslim cities within the empire. Two of these copies still exist today: one is in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent.

One must keep in mind that in traditional learning in the Arab world, transmission was based upon an oral tradition as well as a written one; the Arabs (and later all Muslims) excelled in accurately reporting scripture, poetry, aphorisms, etc. through the generations without change. Similarly, the chain of huffaadh was never broken, and thus the Qur'an today has reached us in two forms: the memorized version transmitted through the scholarly chain, and the written version based upon the Companions’ initial recording.

If the Qur’an had been changed, there would be huge discrepancies between these two today, as the Qur’an has reached isolated (and sometimes illiterate) communities through the memorized form of transmission without the written form to correct it. No such discrepancies have ever been recorded or reported. In other words, isolated village A in African Mali and isolated village B in Afghanistan will both produce contemporary huffaadh reciting the same words of the Qur’an, though they did not learn from a similar printing of the scripture nor has there ever been a concerted international effort to rectify would-be discrepancies.

Allah has said in the Qur’an that He alone will protect His book, and indeed He has kept His promise. The Qur’an that we read today contains the same exact words that were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) over 1400 years ago. This is quite a miracle, especially when you consider that no other group of people can say that their book has not been subject to change by the time it reached the present generation.

Only the Qur’an has survived through the centuries unchanged, and the language in which it was revealed, classical Arabic, still enjoys practical usage around the world. While classic English of the 14th century can be understand by very few native English speakers, the Qur’an can be understood by the vast majority of Arabic-speaking Muslims. When compared to other scriptures, the Qur’an is unique in these two respects.

Furthermore, from the prolific arts that have accompanied Qur’anic learning and transmission, we can learn of the auspiciousness and honor with which the Muslims have traditionally held the Qur’an. The visual arts of calligraphy and binding, and the vocal art of recitation represent examples of such arts, and from them we can see that veracity of transmission would be understood as a fundamental aspect of Qur’anic reverence.

As regards the proofs within the Qur'an itself, they can be found in the following Qur’anic challenges:

Surah 4, verse 82:
"Do they not then meditate on the Qur’an? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy."

Surah 17, verse 88:
"Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others."

And Surah 2, verse 23:
"And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful."



Hope this help.

 

[Hugo]

Hugo,

Thank you for pointing finger at Qur'an. Read it more please that maybe help you more knowledgable. Here's information. Has the Qur'an Changed?[/COLOR] Thank you for your challenging question. In fact, there are different ways to prove that the Qur'an is the word of God, which has always been true and has never been subjected to change or distortion. These proofs can be classified into three types: the way the Qur'an was transmitted throughout the centuries, some challenging verses within the Qur'an itself, and the periodic, modern-day discoveries in the universe that were first mentioned in the Qur'an more than fourteen centuries ago. etc

Thank you for your prompt answer and its source although as you probably know this answer can be found in many places. However, before I give a response I think it important that you understand the position let's say of the sceptic. Perhaps this is best expressed in the famous quote from Thomas Paine:

Let us suppose for the sake of argument that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, [so] it is a revelation only to that person. [It follows it is] hearsay to every other person, and consequently they are not obliged to believe.

So your whole argument and perhaps faith rests on one man who said he had a revelation and of course there is no way to verify that. I am not saying it is not true only that any argument based on it becomes a fallacy because it might be true and it might not be true; there is no way to test it deductively.

So who wrote the Qu'ran, if it was Prophet Mohammed then one supposes it can be traced back to him because there would be evidential and historical artefacts. But if that is not your view then there are no evidential and historical artefacts that show it to be written by God and delivered via Gabriel - it is a matter of faith.

This to me is very weak, at least for the Bible we all agree there was a human author of the words as written down and then its up to you or me to decide if we feel it to be the very word of God. Additinally, the Bible has some 40 authors writing over 1,600 years and yet there is a unity about it that is unmistakable.

Finally, I am intrigued by this emphasis on a kind of transmission methodology and the reason is that such a methodology was defined after the events, long after the events and one can seriously wonder if it was done to fit the events - I don't know, just a thought.

 

[Humbler_359]

Hugo,

Basically, I am sorry to disappoint you, I myself have been research this history of Christianity (quite long times), KJV bibles, and even going to church and their worshipping. Your assumption is baseless, thinking who wrote Quran??

Could you tell me one person ABRAHAM (PBUH) revealed from God?
Could you tell me one person MOSES (PBUH) revealed from God?
Could you maybe tell me one person JESUS (PBUH) revealed from God?
Could you still doubt one person our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) revealed from same God?
.....Solomon (PBUH), Noah(PBUH), Lot (PBUH)...........so on


Christian's intention only choice is to accuse Islam and false doctrines and saying Quran copying from bible. *scoffs*

------------------------------------------
Your people saying, Jesus is unique for your sake......"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." Mark 10:18.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever " John 14:16

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" John 16:8

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13

Muhammad (Pbuh) is the only Foretold prophet of God who brought the things which Jesus wanted to tell his believers. In your view these verses, you will probably say "HOLY SPIRIT" not Muhammad.

I am certainly sure, CHRISTIAN WOULDN'T ACCEPT THE FACT AND CHANGE INTERPRETERS OF THEIR OWN THEORY BASED ON PAUL AND BIBLE.

It is up to you to decide whether it is real or not. Keep in mind, Jews people wouldn't believe in Jesus (PBUH) sending by God after Moses (PBUH) due to calf worshipping. Today, your imagination is Jesus as God/son of God and important interior cross (remind you of Jesus' sin).

I sincerely hope that some christians come to realize that there is Prophet Muhammad-very truth at last messages of ALL after Jesus (PBUH) and last warning.


"Alif, Lam, Meem. This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom." (Surah Al-Baqarah, Chapter 2)


Have a nice day!

Wasalaaam.

 

[GreyKode]

I hereby call upon the might mods please rid us of this miserable thread.

 

[Grace Seeker]

is the "the Greek text published by the United Bible Societies" known for giving fewer text critical variants than other texts such as Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece (27th edition revised; German Bible Society)? and does the Nestle-Aland cite significantly more variants?

I don't know. I don't have my Nestle-Aland text in the office. I'll try to remember to dig out of my library at home and see if I can answer that for you.

Well, I looked as I said I would. Yes, indeed there appear to be significantly more variants cited in the Nestle-Aland Greek text. Can't say that I really know the reason for this, may have to research that more in the future. The figure I gave for the UBS text was not a number that I counted, but something that I read in the introduction. Examining the actual text of both it appears that maybe I misread the figure in the introduction, because a quick estimate of the total number of variants in the UBS (based on counting a few pages and multiplying out for the whole) would be well over 1000, and for the Nestle-Aland maybe as many as 4000-5000 variants.

 

[Walter]

Hi Humbler:

Wasting our times and energy again :hmm:

Then keep going........:argue

This is not a waste of time as you assert. When discussing issues that conflict with what you have believed all of your life, then the new ideas should receive greater scrutiny. That is what we are doing here. We are subjecting the new ideas to rigorous critical examination. That is perhaps the most effective way of obtaining a clearer understanding of the Truth.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[YusufNoor]

I don't know. I don't have my Nestle-Aland text in the office. I'll try to remember to dig out of my library at home and see if I can answer that for you.

and are these based on the Textus Receptus or not? [while you are looking]

 

[Grace Seeker]

and are these based on the Textus Receptus or not? [while you are looking]

No. Neither the Nestle-Aland nor the UBS texts are based on the Textus Receptus. Nestle-Aland used Tischendorff, Weymouth, and Westcott and Hort. The UBS text is a new attempt at producing a Greek text. It made use of the older Greek texts of Wescott and Hort, Nestle, Bover, Merk, and Vogels and to some extent those of Tischendorff and von Soden, but it also made use of much new material and manuscripts that were not available to these others.

An additional line explains a little more as to why there are less variants listed in the critical apparatus of the UBS than Nestle-Aland (I posted on that already above): "the edition has the following special features...a critical apparatus restricted for the most part to variant readings significant for translators or necessary for the establishing of the text." (emphasis mine)

 

[Hugo]

Basically, I am sorry to disappoint you, I myself have been research this history of Christianity (quite long times), KJV bibles, and even going to church and their worshipping. Your assumption is baseless, thinking who wrote Quran??

Could you tell me one person ABRAHAM (PBUH) revealed from God?
Could you tell me one person MOSES (PBUH) revealed from God?
Could you maybe tell me one person JESUS (PBUH) revealed from God?
Could you still doubt one person our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) revealed from same God?
.....Solomon (PBUH), Noah(PBUH), Lot (PBUH)...........so on

Christian's intention only choice is to accuse Islam and false doctrines and saying Quran copying from bible. *scoffs*. Your people saying, Jesus is unique for your sake......"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." Mark 10:18.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever " John 14:16

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" John 16:8

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13

Muhammad (Pbuh) is the only Foretold prophet of God who brought the things which Jesus wanted to tell his believers. In your view these verses, you will probably say "HOLY SPIRIT" not Muhammad.

I am certainly sure, CHRISTIAN WOULDN'T ACCEPT THE FACT AND CHANGE INTERPRETERS OF THEIR OWN THEORY BASED ON PAUL AND BIBLE.

It is up to you to decide whether it is real or not. Keep in mind, Jews people wouldn't believe in Jesus (PBUH) sending by God after Moses (PBUH) due to calf worshipping. Today, your imagination is Jesus as God/son of God and important interior cross (remind you of Jesus' sin). I sincerely hope that some christians come to realize that there is Prophet Muhammad-very truth at last messages of ALL after Jesus (PBUH) and last warning.

"Alif, Lam, Meem. This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom." (Surah Al-Baqarah, Chapter 2)Wasalaaam.

Thank you for the response but I had a little difficulty following some of the things you said.

1. If you have researched Christianity that is fine but what does that prove? I have researched Islam but it does not convince me of its truth so this line of reasoning is inconclusive.

2. I made no assumptions about who wrote the Qu'ran I simply posed some questions based on what you said. If your only answer is that they are baseless then this discussion ends there.

3. I could not quite understand your lines "Could you tell me one person ABRAHAM (PBUH) revealed from God?" as to what your were asking. Do you mean do I recognise Abraham as a prophet? If so you seem to be saying that because Abraham was a prophet then Mohammed must be one also?

4. I note you Biblical quotations regarding the 'comforter' and I assume you are arguing that he is Prophet Mohammed? We can discuss this if you wish and I would like to hear your arguments but even before you say anything we have the difficulty that in the book of Acts the promised comforter comes and that was almost 5 centuries before Mohammed appeared.

5. Thank you for your encouragement to seek the truth but I must say the same to you and you see Jesus as Christians do. Acts 17:24-28 (NIV)

24. The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28. For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

 

[Hugo]

In reply to you post 468 and long inclusion I offer a few remarks.

The inclusion on the transmission of the Qu'ran is one that can be seen in many places and it seems it has been either circulated or copied widely. It has some points of value but overall I felt it disappointed.

1. The writer says there are different ways to 'prove' the Qu'ran is the word of God but none are really described except for the error free transmission argument. However, this amounts to a proof by definition in that you argue that because there are no transmission errors it must be from God. If such a definition is valid then ANY book with an error free transmission is also from God. Obviously, this cannot be tested and it might or might not be true there is no way to decide. Of course if proof by definition is acceptable to you then I can define the Bible on some criteria to be true.

2. One always worries about an author who cannot get even the simplest details correct for he says "unlike the Bible and Old Testament" and one can only wonder what he means by Bible? It is also a rather odd argument to cast doubt on the Bible because it has been translated - what can he mean? One also feels he is not entirely even-handed when he talks about doubtful transmission and corruption of the Bible but seems to accept without question that the Qu'ran was revealed by Gabriel - so here we have one way scepticism. It is also irrelevant to the authenticity or otherwise of the Qu'ran to say there are issues with the Bible unless he draws the absurd conclusion that because the Bible is corrupted the Qu'ran is not?

3. The rest of the paper is about transmission. However, it is presented in a very confusing manner which raises more questions that it answers.

a. If the Qu'ran was completed in its entirety after the Prophet's death where is it that copy now?

b. In para 6 and 8 it talks about 'many copies' were available but here he cannot be talking about complete Qu'rans because he says the copies existed before the Hijrah so what does he mean?

c. In para 7 we read the Qu'ran was not in one volume but also the Mohammed personally arranged it and one cannot arrange what does not exist so this is either a contradiction or a muddle. One can subscribe to the notion of Mohammed calling a scribe to write down a verse later on in his ministry but what happened in the first few years?

d. Given that all these copies existed one wonders about para 9 where some of those who memorized the Qu'ran were killed and Abu Bakr thought that it might be lost - this does not make sense if many copies existed?

e. In para 12 we are told that the original copy was borrowed and duplicated by hand. But what about all the other copies where they examined otherwise one cannot be sure they all agreed? We are told in para 12 that TWO of these copies still exist but with nothing precise as to where they are. For example, we are told that one exists in Istanbul one supposes in the Topkapi but that houses I am told about 1,600 ancient Qu'rans so which one is he talking about? We also seem to have muddle with a written 'version' and a the odd sounding 'memorized' version and one supposes he means they differ?

f. He claims that no discrepancies have ever been reported though offers no evidence but in fairness it is pratically impossible to show this to be true without getting every Qu'ran and checking it. On the other hand it means that if I or anyone can find a single copy where there is a difference then the whole theory of immaculate transmission fails.

d, He make a spurious analogy about English at the end without acknowledging that no one on the street speaks the same Arabic found in the Qu'ran.

e. It is not sufficient proof that the Qu'ran endorses itself for obvious reasons

In summary, the whole argument rests on the single and unprovable belief that Gabriel brought the message from God -and we are back where we should be in my view with with faith though I have no objections to anyone citing evidence as such.

 

[Humbler_359]

Hugo,

Here's my two cents, it is not worthy and pointless in discussing for your sake of arguments. You have been refuted several times.....

You are trickster, you never gave up your same old arguments and illogical. We are aware, you might like to spread propagandas here and even blame Islam, I kindly request you to leave this IB asap.

Kindly close this thread, Moderators.

Wasalaam!

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Thread closed upon request.


:threadclo

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

Muslims are brothers with Muslims only.

We are COUSINS of the Jews and Christians.

Depends on who you ask, Anti-Karate-Kid. Some of the most renown scholars would disagree with very strong evidences from Qu'ran and Sunnah.

Imam Nawawi, for example, when giving his explanation of the hadith, "No man truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself" said that "brother" here meant "brothers in humanity" and not simply brothers in Islam, and he was one of the top scholars of Hadith exegesis, if not the number 1 scholar in this field of all time. It is also related that there was a certain du'a that the Prophet [saas] would make before going to sleep that began with him saying, "O Allah, I do testify that all of mankind is brethren..."

Also, Ibn Umar [raa] considered it lawful to give zakah to non-Muslims in certain conditions, in part because of his understanding of the above Hadith.