Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

my my my! ever so gracious of you to allow me to choose my own beliefs
ta very much

Your welcome.

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

I really don't care what you commit to personally, you can believe in an 6000 years old Earth if you want.

That just proves you know nothing about Islam and we are just wasting time here.

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

I am tired of repeating my question :rollseyes

Let me make it clearer...

I was referring to evidence that shows that there was no intervention or influence when the big bang occured.

Not that the big bang never occurred!!! All Muslims believe in the big bang in case you didn't notice???

All muslims believe in the big bang? Have proof?

Anyway, I said their is no evidence of their being intervention or influence. This doesn't mean their wasn't, just their isn't any scientific evidence of such existing.

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

That just proves you know nothing about Islam and we are just wasting time here.

Brave, although fallacious, nonetheless brave statements.

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

All muslims believe in the big bang? Have proof?

[21:30]"Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"

Anyway, I said their is no evidence of their being intervention or influence. This doesn't mean their wasn't, just their isn't any scientific evidence of such existing.

Then according to your own principles is it not wrong to tell children the big bang occurred all by itself and that matter has existed since infinity? Since you say there is no evidence of it?

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

[21:30]"Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"

That verse is not talking about the big bang, rather that is what some people speculate that it could mean (although, it is not really strong).

Then according to your own principles is it not wrong to tell children the big bang occurred all by itself and that matter has existed since infinity? Since you say there is no evidence of it?

If you mean, to teach children that the big bang means that no God exists - then yes, it is wrong. The only things that should be taught about the big bang, is what has scientific evidence.

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

That verse is not talking about the big bang, rather that is what some people speculate that it could mean (although, it is not really strong).

lol and how did you come to that conclusion?

It is talking about the universe coming into existence from a single explosion.

It is literally spelling it out for you. Does it have to be any more blatant??? :?

If you mean, to teach children that the big bang means that no God exists - then yes, it is wrong. The only things that should be taught about the big bang, is what has scientific evidence.

Where is the evidence that the big bang was independent and matter was here since infinity? Care to share it with us?

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

lol and how did you come to that conclusion?

It is talking about the universe coming into existence from a single explosion.

It is literally spelling it out for you. Does it have to be any more blatant??? :?

That is another issue, which we could talk about via PM if you wish (as it is a long issue altogether). Also, are you trying to insult my intelligence? It says you are 30, how about act your age.

Where is the evidence that the big bang was independent and matter was here since infinity? Care to share it with us?

I will say this one last time, not going to repeat myself again.

Their is, no evidence THAT IT WAS DEPENDANT, that is, no scientific evidence exists that INTERVENTION OR INFLUENCE occured. You can believe, intervention, or influence, existed, LIKE ME, but, we cannot prove it - nor provide evidence that Allah had influenced it, in a scientific way.

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

That is another issue, which we could talk about via PM if you wish (as it is a long issue altogether). Also, are you trying to insult my intelligent? It says you are 30, how about act your age.

Another issue? Long debate? Its only one paragraph that says Allah created the universe from an explosion. Plain and simple. I have no need to debate about it. Thanks for your offer anyway

I am not trying to insult your intelligence but maybe you feel that way because of your own complexes.

I will say this one last time, not going to repeat myself again.

Their is, no evidence THAT IT WAS DEPENDANT, that is, no scientific evidence exists that INTERVENTION OR INFLUENCE occured. You can believe, intervention, or influence, existed, LIKE ME, but, we cannot prove it - nor provide evidence that Allah had influenced it, in a scientific way.

I know you said that many times but you fail to understand my argument. Unlike you I will not repeat myself again.

Have a nice day. Peace eace:

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Another issue? Long debate? Its only one paragraph that says Allah created the universe from an explosion. Plain and simple. I have no need to debate about it. Thanks for your offer anyway

I am not trying to insult your intelligence but maybe you feel that way because of your own complexes.

I will accept that the Qur'an talks about the big bang, if you can show me tafsir (Qur'an commentary), of early muslim scholars, who have talked about this verse, in a manner in which it constitutes to the big bang theory.

A tafsir of Al-Jalalyn is:

Have they not ([one may] read a-wa-lam or a-lam) realised, [have they not] come to know, those who disbelieve, that the heavens and the earth were closed together and then We parted them, We made seven heavens and seven earths — or [it is meant] that the heaven was parted and began to rain, when it did not use to do so, and that the earth was parted and began to produce plants, when it did not use to do so; and We made, of water, [the water] that falls from the heaven and that springs from the earth, every living thing?, in the way of plants and otherwise: in other words, water is the cause of such [things] having life. Will they not then believe?, by affirming My Oneness?

It doesn't talk about big bang.
The Qur'an verse states:

"The heaven and the Earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder"

You see, the age of the universe, is estimated at around 13-15 billion years. The Earth, only came into it in the last 4.5 billion years.

So, at the point of big bang, their really was no Earth, the Earth was formed far later. If someone has, a clear explanation of this tafsir, I would be grateful. As tafsir by opinon is wrong, we cannot indulge realistically what this is, be it in a metaphorical state.

Some try to talk about, expansion, in verse 51:47, which could equate to the expanding universe, but I would say, an accurate translation, is that it talks of a vast universe, which also follows onto from the tafsir

And the heaven, We built it with might, and indeed We are powerful (one says āda’l-rajulu or ya’īdu, to mean, ‘he is strong’; and awsa‘a’l-rajulu, to mean, ‘he has become capable [dhū sa‘a] and strong’).

I should also note, what does it mean to seperate the heaven and Earth? Because, the big bang, doesn't seperate anything, do you see brother? Was the singularity, stuck to the heaven?

AS you know brother, the universe once did not exist, with the Earth and so fourth. Everyone was, so to say, in the "heavenly" kingdoms. However, humans, being put on Earth, as opposed to heaven, is what the seperation could be talking about (would require confirmation).

Going back to my previous points, if this verse was directed at the big bang - it would be a scientific fault (or atleast, would not agree with the big bang theory) - as no Earth existed, prior to the big bang, during it and billions of years after it.

So, this verse cannot be attributed to the big bang, simply because, it would mean for contradiction, and also it doesn't really make sense. Also, it would mean, that previous generations did not know what this verse means - and we know - that the salaaf had a greater understanding of the Qur'an than anyone today - so I don't buy that a verse existed that no one knew the meaning of truly until the last 200 years.

I know you said that many times but you fail to understand my argument. Unlike you I will not repeat myself again.

Have a nice day. Peace eace:

You too.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

[21:30]"Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"

Which translation is that, please, Hamayun? I am unable to find one that uses the word 'exploded'? Quite apart from which the 'heaven' and 'earth' were never 'one solid mass', the earth being formed a very long time after the 'heavens'. In other words, if that is supposed to be science (which it isn't, of course) it is wrong.

Qur'anic sciento-tosh aside, there seems to be an awful lot of confusion going on here about 'evidence' and 'proof'. As scientific terms, at least, they are far from synonymous. There IS plenty of evidence both that the Big Bang occurred, and that evolution by natural selection occurred and continues to occur. And, indeed, that the theories of quantum mechanics and gravity might be right, and so on. There is no proof regarding any of them, and never can be, and demands to see it represent a fundamental misunderstanding about what science actually is. NO scientific theory can ever be 'proven', they can only be disproven.

Theories are accepted on the basis of their ability to explain and predict the available empirical evidence. When another theory comes along that does it better, the former one is refined or in some cases replaced completely. Evolution is generally accepted because it is the scientific theory that best explains the facts, and there are no credible alternatives, at present anyway. Creationism never will be a scientific theory because it explains nothing whatsoever... even if God created the universe, or life, or man HOW did He do it? What physical processes were involved? Just invoking God is an excuse for not providing an explanation, not providing one - even if you accept God exists.

In short, talk of 'proof' is nonsense in the context of an evolution v. creationism debate as it is judged according to a totally different standard in each case. The good news for creationists is that, unlike evolution, creationism can no more be disproven than it can be proven!

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

I overlooked, his translation too - seems very psuedo-science, probably a Naikh/Yahya edition. Solid mass, exploded etc?

Anyway, that version doesn't make sense either, Earth didn't exist during the big bang. Exactly how was Earth attached to the heaven again? Also, the Earth is not detached from the Universe, so it definatly wasn't cloved ASUNDER from the universe (if you take heaven to imply Universe). The Earth formed 8-9 billions years after the big bang, their was no seperation. So, really, none of these, make sense.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Found it, HERE in something called the 'authorized English version', translated by Rashad Khalifa. It doesn't say who 'authorized' it.

Whatever Dr Khalifa's qualifications and expertise may be, the fact that the quoted passage appears immediately after (presumably) his own annotation;

The Big Bang Theory confirmed

rather speaks for itself. :rollseyes

Pickthal's translation is;

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

No doubt an Arabic speaker will tell us in due course which is actually closest, or whether another alternative is better than either.

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Found it, HERE in something called the 'authorized English version', translated by Rashad Khalifa. It doesn't say who 'authorized' it.

Whatever Dr Khalifa's qualifications and expertise may be, the fact that the quoted passage appears immediately after (presumably) his own annotation;



rather speaks for itself. :rollseyes

Hmm, don't think LI would appreciate the works of Khalifa, he has been known to have tampered with Islam, and has takfir made on him by various scholars (he claims to be a messenger from God, he has a website (which I won't link), where you can find many of his controversial views. His translation definatly isn't viable. I believe he also, deleted 2 Quran verses, to justify his number 19 miracle. He is also a stern hadith rejector.

I wonder how Hamayun would feel, knowing that, Khalifa also believes, the evolution theory is confirmed in the Qur'an.

 

[doorster]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

whats the difference between this >> [FONT=&quot]do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?
and what Hamayun posted?
[/FONT]

No doubt an Arabic speaker will tell us in due course which is actually closest, or whether another alternative is better than either.

Not allowed here! -- nothing posted by Muslims here is authentic unless its a copy/paste from al-Munajjid -- as can be seen in wife beating thread

[FONT=&quot] Also I cant afford to waste much time here since mods keep deleting my posts on mere suspicion of me being disagreeable to their Mullahs at islamqa fatwa shop

I would ask Br.Hamayun to give up too, since the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mods are lacking the understanding themselves as well as not knowing what being even handed means

Note: it takes me hours to translate my thoughts from Urdu into something resembling English with help from various dictionaries then it takes one click of their delete button and its gone
[/FONT]

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

whats the difference between this >> [FONT=&quot]do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?
and what Hamayun posted?

It added a few descriptions, which were neither in the authentic translations, or tafsirs.

Notably, solid mass - this is added to suggest confirmation, of the dense singularity state at the big bang.

and also, explosion, another description not in either tafsir or authentic translations.

I cant afford to waste much time here since mods keep deleting my posts on mere suspicion of me being disagreeable to their Mullahs at islamqa fatwa shop

Funnily, I am discussing with mods, to try remove the censorship of other opinions.

I would ask Br.Hamayun to give up too, since the [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mods are lacking the understanding themselves as well as not knowing what being even handed means
[/FONT]

You should probably advise him also, not to post Khalifa material.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Not allowed here! -- nothing posted by Muslims here is authentic unless its a copy/paste from al-Munajjid

My apologies, on re-reading I didn't make myself clear. I didn't intend to ask for an for an interpretation of the whole verse, just the most appropriate translation into English of a particular word (or phrase), i.e. "explosion". The resident Qur'anic Arabic experts such as Skye and Woodrow have never had any problem with doing that, and their comments have been most informative to muslims and non-muslims alike.

 

[doorster]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

My apologies, on re-reading I didn't make myself clear. I didn't intend to ask for an for an interpretation of the whole verse, just the most appropriate translation into English of a particular word (or phrase), i.e. "explosion". The resident Qur'anic Arabic experts such as Skye and Woodrow have never had any problem with doing that, and their comments have been most informative to muslims and non-muslims alike.

ok, I've sent a PM to Br. Woodrow asking for help

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

At the moment I am traveling and posting wireless on the laptop and have little time to post. I will address this thread this evening when I stop for the night.

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

I hear you brother doorster. I do indeed give up.

"Clove them asunder" or "exploded" either way you look at it... ah what's the point...

Doesn't matter. I have nothing to gain from this debate so why waste my time.

toodle-pip