Hate for the Pagan

[Thucydides1987]

It is possible that "trouble" will always be there because God has created human beings with different intellectual and spiritual capacities. If we were all the same---there would be no neccesity for tolerance, compassion and mercy---it is our differences and trancending these differences to find our common humanity that requires these noble virtues......

Well, perhaps the way of transcending our differences is simply accepting and living with them, and not trying to universalize a single worldview? In fact, I would argue that something similar to this "Unity" that you speak of was achieved in polytheistic societies, because regardless of the fact that people were worshipping different gods, they all nonetheless recognized each other's "common humanity", since they knew that they were all participating in a shared world full of deities. What I'm trying to say is, that those people all fundamentally had the same religious worldview, and that the variety of deities that they worshipped was based on a common theological foundation -- which is why the worship of multiple deities is a mere triviality. For example, a Roman, whatever god he may have worshipped, would nonetheless respect a Persian's (his sworn enemy's) god, and would not transgress the line of insulting that particular god -- since that Persian god, in the his mind, exists like his own Roman one.

 

[Lynx]

Muslims believe that God has sent a prophet to every nation - so "paganism" or poytheism of any kind is a corruption of the messege of one God. How do you know the Greeks never had an idea of one God?

Well in the first place your question is problematic; how do you know they didn't all worship unicorns and dragons? In any case, they were just an example and there are plenty of other civilizations with their own pantheon of Gods that did not benefit from people like Plato and Aristotle. Trivialities aside, do you disagree that the pagans mentioned in the Quran refer distinctly to the pagans of Arabia that were outright associating Allah (as their supreme God) with partners? I think there is a significant difference between that sort of pagan and the ones you'd find elsewhere (in egypt as another example).

 

[Hiroshi]

Muslims believe that God has sent a prophet to every nation

Sorry to but in. I didn't know that Muslims believed this. Is this what the Qur'an says?

 

[siam]

@ thucydides

"...since they knew that they were all participating in a shared world full of deities."

What you pointed out is exactly my point about the limitations of polytheism. Tawheed takes us from egoism to altruism. For example, today we see ourselves as citizens of a "nation"---we are divided and our identities are based on these divisions. Tawheed makes us understand that an American is the brother of an Afghan and his pain is also the shared pain of the American. This type of thinking can only occur if we transcend mere tolerance and acknowledge our shared brotherhood.

 

[siam]

"...and not trying to universalize a single worldview?"
---I enjoy the diversity in our world---and Islam has a perspective called "Unity within diversity". The degree to which we have "Unity" within diversity is God's will---I think we should simply enjoy it.......

 

[siam]

@Hiroshi

Yes---Surah 10 verse 47, Surah 16, verse 36 are some examples

 

[Ramadhan]

Sorry to but in. I didn't know that Muslims believed this. Is this what the Qur'an says?

QS. 16:36
And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods. Then some of them (there were) whom Allah guided, and some of them (there were) upon whom error had just hold. Do but travel in the land and see the nature of the consequence for the deniers!

QS. 35:24-25
Lo! We have sent thee with the Truth, a bearer of glad tidings and a warner; and there is not a nation but a warner hath passed among them.
And if they reject thee, so did their predecessors, to whom came their messengers with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.

QS. 43:6-7
But how many were the prophets We sent amongst the peoples of old?
And never came there a prophet to them but they mocked him

QS. 21:25
Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.

 

[Hiroshi]

QS. 16:36
And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods. Then some of them (there were) whom Allah guided, and some of them (there were) upon whom error had just hold. Do but travel in the land and see the nature of the consequence for the deniers!

QS. 35:24-25
Lo! We have sent thee with the Truth, a bearer of glad tidings and a warner; and there is not a nation but a warner hath passed among them.
And if they reject thee, so did their predecessors, to whom came their messengers with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.

QS. 43:6-7
But how many were the prophets We sent amongst the peoples of old?
And never came there a prophet to them but they mocked him

QS. 21:25
Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.

Thanks Naidamar. That answers my question.

 

[Hiroshi]

@Hiroshi

Yes---Surah 10 verse 47, Surah 16, verse 36 are some examples

Thanks. Those two verses show that clearly.

 

[Zafran]

Well in the first place your question is problematic; how do you know they didn't all worship unicorns and dragons? In any case, they were just an example and there are plenty of other civilizations with their own pantheon of Gods that did not benefit from people like Plato and Aristotle. Trivialities aside, do you disagree that the pagans mentioned in the Quran refer distinctly to the pagans of Arabia that were outright associating Allah (as their supreme God) with partners? I think there is a significant difference between that sort of pagan and the ones you'd find elsewhere (in egypt as another example).

The Quran clearly does not Just talk about those polytheists in pagan arabia - but anyone who commits shirk - Thats clear in the Quran. Be it a person who worships a man God (Like Pharoah, Egypt) all the way to a person who believes in the pantheon of Gods like the people of Abhrham pbuh. The stories of the prophets are there for a reason. There messege is clear.

By the way the Question wasnt Trivial - Its clear that some people even in Greece had an idea of a single God (looking at Plato, Aristotle and possibly socrates as well) - If you look at the story of the prophets most of the time they were men that had very few followers or no followers - like Noah, Lot pbuh even Abhrahm pbuh when he was a young boy with his father etc etc.

 

[IAmZamzam]

FYI What you're describing is a clear cut Poisoning the Well fallacy since the attack is being made on the person's supposed lack of knowledge or expertise instead of the argument he has put forward. This might help Thucydides in seeing his mistake.

Ah, thank you! There are so many different forms of poisoning the well that it gets confusing.

Well, whenever a claim is made as the one he did -- about polytheism being "psychologically and morally more dangerous" than monotheism --, I have no choice but to put into question his knowledge about polytheism. Perhaps you can excuse my suspicion, but without any explanation, that point just sounds ludicrous to me.

Does any claim that anything is psychologically and morally dangerous provoke the same response from you or is it just when it's made over religious matters?

 

[IAmZamzam]

Polytheists may learn to accept each other for who they are and tolerate each others different views, whereas the monotheists are far more likely to force their view, the only "acceptable" view, on everybody else.

As soon people go from "to each his own" towards "my way is the only way" I think a lot of new trouble comes. This applies to going from "to each his god" to "my god is the only god, and to worship others is blasphemy".

If you, as you've said, don't want people speaking of atheists in a generalizing way, don't speak of monotheists or polytheists in the same way.

 

[Pygoscelis]

If you, as you've said, don't want people speaking of atheists in a generalizing way, don't speak of monotheists or polytheists in the same way.

"My God is the only god and to worship others is blasphemy" is central to all three of the Abrahamic religions. Perhaps I should not generalize this to any other monotheistic religions that may exist out there, but I actually am not sure if any exist, and they are not front and central in society if they do.

 

[IAmZamzam]

What about the "forcing their view onto everybody else" part?

Society, shmociety. Once again you are more concerned with what ill effects a belief may have (in your own ignorant and prejudiced mind) than whether it is sincere or even true.

Rule #1 for me as a da'i is not forcing my view onto anyone else. That doesn't mean I'm going to shy away from expressing it. I wonder how much, and with how many people, you project the latter onto the former.

 

[Insaanah]

I am a Jehovah's Witness and consider myself a Christian but I do not believe in the trinity and I do not believe that Jesus is Almighty God.

You may not believe that he is Almighty God, but you do believe that he is a god, a divine being in addition to Jehovah.

Such beliefs that are found in the different churches that we see today are not a reflection of true Christianity at all.

But, I guess to you as a Jehovah's Witness, the fact that you believe in two gods, one almighty and one not almighty, is.

To a Muslim, 3-in-1, or a hierarchy of two, are not much different.

Peace.

 

[Thucydides1987]

@ thucydides

"...since they knew that they were all participating in a shared world full of deities."

What you pointed out is exactly my point about the limitations of polytheism. Tawheed takes us from egoism to altruism. For example, today we see ourselves as citizens of a "nation"---we are divided and our identities are based on these divisions. Tawheed makes us understand that an American is the brother of an Afghan and his pain is also the shared pain of the American. This type of thinking can only occur if we transcend mere tolerance and acknowledge our shared brotherhood.

Why does what I said indicate paganism's limitations to you? Perhaps you misunderstood me, but if anything, I pointed out how a pagan society possesses the very "brotherhood" between people that you speak of (Tawheed) -- hence my example about the Roman and Persian.

 

[جوري]

possesses the very "brotherhood" between people that you speak of (Tawheed)

Tawheed doesn't mean brotherhood. Do you want to do minor research before you gauge a topic? It is getting tedious really!

 

[Thucydides1987]

Tawheed doesn't mean brotherhood. Do you want to do minor research before you gauge a topic? It is getting tedious really!

Umm, I'm quoting siam; what are you blaming me for? By the way, do you ever post anything else on this site other than insults?

 

[جوري]

Umm, I'm quoting siam; what are you blaming me for? By the way, do you ever post anything else on this site other than insults?

Siam didn't specify what 'Tawheed' is in his post, you assumed and conjectured as you so often do and then went on to build a faulty argument out of ignorance, I mean it is mildly amusing I'll admit and I am willing to go out on a limb and say you might even get away with it with like minded under-educated individuals but this is an Islamic board and you're engaging Muslims, the least you can do for your own credibility is minor research!..
other than that what is it exactly that you find insulting about the truth. Would you prefer people applaud you for your cognitive conservatism?

 

[Thucydides1987]

Siam didn't specify what 'Tawheed' is in his post

Yes, he did; read the series of replies we made to one another, where he mentions it with some detail. I'm not suspicious of him that I'd need to go research this concept for myself, I take his word for it, for he is a civil person unlike you.