Hate for the Pagan



You may not believe that he is Almighty God, but you do believe that he is a god, a divine being in addition to Jehovah.



Yes. It must be understood that I believe in the Bible and the Bible occasionally, and quite properly, applies the term "god" to others apart from the Supreme Being. The Israelite judges, the angels, Satan and Jesus are all referred to as "god" in various passages (Isaiah 9:6; Psalms 8:5; John 10:34-35; 2 Corinthians 4:4). The popular and widely held view that "God" should be applied to no one except for the Almighty carries with it a misunderstanding of the Bible's designation of Jesus.




But, I guess to you as a Jehovah's Witness, the fact that you believe in two gods, one almighty and one not almighty, is.

To a Muslim, 3-in-1, or a hierarchy of two, are not much different.


Okay. But my view of Jesus is just that he is a servant of God that has been given great authority by God.
 
How dare people make lies about Allah (SWT) saying he has a son or not worshiping him, everone who believes in god hates the Pagan godless people & wishes 2 things of them 1 their destruction 2 them worshiping the one & only god Allah (SWT). 31. They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (Surah 9. At-Tauba Holy Quran), [5:17] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, the son of Mary. Say, "Who could oppose GOD if He willed to annihilate the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone on earth?" To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them. He creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent. [5:18] The Jews and the Christians said, "We are GOD's children and His beloved." Say, "Why then does He punish you for your sins? You are just humans like the other humans He created." He forgives whomever He wills and punishes whomever He wills. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, and to Him is the final destiny. (Surah 5 The Feast).
 
How dare people make lies about Allah (SWT) saying he has a son or not worshiping him, everone who believes in god hates the Pagan godless people

I don't hate pagan godless people. I hate what they are doing. But I would want to help them rather than wish for their destruction.
 
For example, The Christians called God "Allah" which is Arabic for God, the Pagan Arabs called their God "Allah" also. Therefore, should one assume that both the Christians and Pagans felt they were worshipping the same God? The Pagan Allah(God) had daughters, for some Christians Allah(God) had a son.

Are you talking about the Christians in the Arabic Peninsula? Cause Christians would have called God by whatever word they would have had in their respective language: the Romans called him "Deus", the Greeks "Theos", the Armenians "Astvats", etc etc. Regardless of what they called god, I do agree with you that the concept of God changed with the advent of monotheism.

I think you generally explained Tawheed very well, so I more or less understand it :)
 
How dare people make lies about Allah (SWT) saying he has a son or not worshiping him, everone who believes in god hates the Pagan godless people & wishes 2 things of them 1 their destruction 2 them worshiping the one & only god Allah (SWT). 31. They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (Surah 9. At-Tauba Holy Quran), [5:17] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, the son of Mary. Say, "Who could oppose GOD if He willed to annihilate the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone on earth?" To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them. He creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent. [5:18] The Jews and the Christians said, "We are GOD's children and His beloved." Say, "Why then does He punish you for your sins? You are just humans like the other humans He created." He forgives whomever He wills and punishes whomever He wills. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, and to Him is the final destiny. (Surah 5 The Feast).

This is what I meant when I asked people NOT to provide a case against paganism by reiterating verses from their holy books like parrots.
 
If that is your position, then not only should yo be concerned but shouldn't you also be totally against atheism, seeing the effect of atheism on people like pol pot, stalin, mao, and their friends?

It wasnt for the sake of atheism that they killed so many people; they were dictators and it makes no difference whether you are a religious or a secular dictator -- you're equally ruthless. On the other hand, it WAS for the sake of God that Urban II started the Crusades, or that you have Shias being blown up by Sunnis every year.
 
Just to add to your argument, Plato and Aristotle did believe in the one God through deep contemplation and long periods of reflecting about life, existence, and the "nature of things."

Once again, you have to remember that the one God that they believed in was not the Abrahamic God.
 
Zeus and Apollo are different deities and the nature of worship demands that one place the object of worship higher than anything else lest you could barely call it worship at all

Why is it necessary to hierarchically place one deity over another like that? The point is that they are gods and that they are both above YOU, hence you should pay equal respect to them both.

Instead, you just prattle about cultures and societies and communities as if they had anything to do with it.

I'm trying to explain to you their beliefs, which obviously needs to be put into cultural context since they lived in a world very different from our own (a world, by the way, which Christianity and Islam destroyed). You, however, don't want to hear it and immediately refer back to your monotheist thinking and dismiss their religious beliefs by calling it "pointless" and "foolish". For example, as you state in the following quote:

but even you don't seem to be able to deny the logic that if there is always a single highest god, original creator, etc., then not to worship that one god alone is foolish and pointless.

That logic would stand only IF there is a consensus for a single highest god. The pagans did not think that there was, so it is not right to call them "foolish" according to your monotheist standards since pagans do not adhere to such ways of thought. This is exactly what I mean when I say that you are ignorant of the way they thought.
 
It wasnt for the sake of atheism that they killed so many people; they were dictators and it makes no difference whether you are a religious or a secular dictator -- you're equally ruthless. On the other hand, it WAS for the sake of God that Urban II started the Crusades, or that you have Shias being blown up by Sunnis every year.

Not true Stalin did persecute believers like christians they were heavily presecuted under his regime - simply because they believed in christainty. Furthermore its true Atheism is meaningless however the hatred of religion that some athiest have and in past has led to the persecution of religous people.

sunnis and shias were living fine until somebody decided to put a wall in between them atleast in Iraq.
 
It wasnt for the sake of atheism that they killed so many people; they were dictators and it makes no difference whether you are a religious or a secular dictator -- you're equally ruthless. On the other hand, it WAS for the sake of God that Urban II started the Crusades, or that you have Shias being blown up by Sunnis every year.

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Former atheist Ignace Lepp states "some modern atheists are unquestionably neurotics" which he bases typically on an unhappy experience with religion.[78] Sam Harris has been criticized by some of his fellow contributors at The Huffington Post. In particular, RJ Eskow has accused him of fostering an intolerance towards faith, potentially as damaging as the religious fanaticism which he opposes.[14][15] Madeleine Bunting wrote in The Guardian that the purpose of recent books by Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens "is to pour scorn on religious belief – they want it eradicated," and argues that the books are "deeply political," sharing a "loathing" of the role of religion in US politics. Quoting Harris as saying "some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them," Bunting says "[t]his sounds like exactly the kind of argument put forward by those who ran the Inquisition."[79] Quoting the same passage, theologian Catherine Keller asks, "[c]ould there be a more dangerous proposition than that?" and argues that the "anti-tolerance" it represents would "dismantle" the Jeffersonian wall between church and state.[80]

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One criticism of atheism is that godless nations have been responsible for aggressive campaigns against religions or religious people. Pope Benedict XVI, for example, stated in 2010:
As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a "reductive vision of the person and his destiny"[85]
While research suggests that atheists are more numerous in peaceful nations than they are in turbulent or warlike ones,[86] proponents of this view cite examples, such as the Bolsheviks (in Soviet Russia), who, inspired by "an ideological creed which professed that all religion would atrophy", "resolved to eradicate Christianity as such". In 1918 "[t]en Orthodox hierarchs were summarily shot" and "[c]hildren were deprived of any religious education outside the home."[87] Increasingly draconian measures were employed. In addition to direct state persecution, the League of the Militant Godless was founded in 1925, churches were closed and vandalized and "by 1938 eighty bishops had lost their lives, while thousands of clerics were sent to labour camps."[88]
In 1967, Enver Hoxha's regime conducted a campaign to extinguish religious life in Albania; by year's end over two thousand religious buildings were closed or converted to other uses, and religious leaders were imprisoned and executed. Albania was declared to be the world's first atheist country by its leaders, and Article 37 of the Albanian constitution of 1976 stated that "The State recognises no religion, and supports and carries out atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in people."[89][90][91]
Christian writer Dinesh D'Souza writes that "The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth."[16] He also contends:
And who can deny that Stalin and Mao, not to mention Pol Pot and a host of others, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic? Who can dispute that they did their bloody deeds by claiming to be establishing a 'new man' and a religion-free utopia? These were mass murders performed with atheism as a central part of their ideological inspiration, they were not mass murders done by people who simply happened to be atheist.[17]

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Some philosophers and world religions teach that morality is derived from or expressed by the dictates or commandments of a particular deity, and that acknowledgment of God or the gods is a major factor in motivating people towards moral behavior. The philosopher Immanuel Kant stated the practical necessity for a belief in God in his Critique of Practical Reason. As an idea of pure reason, "we do not have the slightest ground to assume in an absolute manner… the object of this idea…",[45] but adds that the idea of God cannot be separated from the relation of happiness with morality as the "ideal of the supreme good." The foundation of this connection is an intelligible moral world, and "is necessary from the practical point of view".[46] The French philosopher Voltaire stated "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."[47]
Niall Ferguson states that without religion there would be no basis for an ethical framework for a person's life, and refers to G. K. Chesterton's rumoured apothegm "When men stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing. They believe in anything". He states that based on historical observation and studies performed by his colleagues at Harvard University that there is "no question there’s a connection between religion and economic and social behaviour" and he is "strongly convinced that religion performs important social functions in the transmission say, of ethical values between generations" and without it exists "a society that’s likely to be less good at maintaining social order".[48][49] Historically, practical atheism or apatheism — which describes individuals who live as if there are no gods and explain natural phenomena without resorting to the divine — has been associated by various writers with depravity, willful ignorance, impiety, and hedonism. According to the French Catholic philosopher Étienne Borne, "Practical atheism is not the denial of the existence of God, but complete godlessness of action; it is a moral evil, implying not the denial of the absolute validity of the moral law but simply rebellion against that law."[6] For many years in the United States, atheists were not allowed to testify in court because it was believed that an atheist would have no reason to tell the truth (see also discrimination against atheists).[50]
 
salaam

No wonder you have so many albanian athiest - they were muslims before that

Cant believe that albania was the first athiest country.

Intresting stuff by the way - some of those quotes and ideas are intresting

peace
 
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It wasnt for the sake of atheism that they killed so many people; they were dictators and it makes no difference whether you are a religious or a secular dictator -- you're equally ruthless

That's so not true. Those atheist dictators saw exactly the same thing as you do: They all thought religions are bad for the people, so they went on systemic plan to eradicate religions.
And in the process torturing and killing a hundred of millions of people.
 
How do you know that?

Because there is absolutely no evidence of any acquaintance with Judaism in their writing (I mention Judaism because that was the only Abrahamic religion at the time). As I stated earlier, their 'God' was like the Deistic God. Hellenistic scientists state so themselves, that the Supreme Being is merely a prime mover, and does not directly interfere with the affairs of men on earth, nor hears their prayers. Which is why the idea of worship was a foolish and futile thing.
 
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Not true Stalin did persecute believers like christians they were heavily presecuted under his regime - simply because they believed in christainty.


Well, I would argue that he persecuted the Christians because he wanted to gain power over the institution of the Russian Orthodox Church, not because he hated people who believed in Christianity. I don't think it mattered to him what people believed, as long as he had attained absolute power. Religious institutions have a way of influencing people to turn away from the government.
 
sunnis and shias were living fine until somebody decided to put a wall in between them atleast in Iraq.


But how do you account for the historical persecution of the Shia during the Caliphate, then? Or the antagonism between the Safavids and Ottomans (surely, the Sunni and Shia problem added to the conflict between the two empires)? All of this was before Western colonization.
 
How dare you Kafir call me a Parrot, I don't care what Pagans think Allah (SWT) says worship him & thats what people of the world Should do. So you are a Atheist saying with pride you don't worship the creator Allah (SWT) than don't live in his Earth, don't use his water, or don't breathe his air. Get your Kafir Atheist scientists to create a world oh thats right they cann't. Its time to worship the creator Allah (SWT). 67:15 It is He Who has made the earth manageable for you, so traverse ye through its tracts and enjoy of the Sustenance which He furnishes: but unto Him is the Resurrection. 67:16 Do ye feel secure that He Who is in heaven will not cause you to be swallowed up by the earth when it shakes (as in an earthquake)? 67:17 Or do ye feel secure that He Who is in Heaven will not send against you a violent tornado (with showers of stones), so that ye shall know how (terrible) was My warning? 67:18 But indeed men before them rejected (My warning): then how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)? 67:23 Say: "It is He Who has created you (and made you grow), and made for you the faculties of hearing, seeing, feeling and understanding: little thanks it is ye give. 67:30 Say: "See ye?- If your stream be some morning lost (in the underground earth), who then can supply you with clear-flowing water?" ( The Holy Quran Surah 67 Al Mulk)
This is what I meant when I asked people NOT to provide a case against paganism by reiterating verses from their holy books like parrots.
 
67:15 It is He Who has made the earth manageable for you, so traverse ye through its tracts and enjoy of the Sustenance which He furnishes: but unto Him is the Resurrection. 67:16 Do ye feel secure that He Who is in heaven will not cause you to be swallowed up by the earth when it shakes (as in an earthquake)? 67:17 Or do ye feel secure that He Who is in Heaven will not send against you a violent tornado (with showers of stones), so that ye shall know how (terrible) was My warning? 67:18 But indeed men before them rejected (My warning): then how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)? 67:23 Say: "It is He Who has created you (and made you grow), and made for you the faculties of hearing, seeing, feeling and understanding: little thanks it is ye give. 67:30 Say: "See ye?- If your stream be some morning lost (in the underground earth), who then can supply you with clear-flowing water?" ( The Holy Quran Surah 67 Al Mulk)

Well I appreciate your poetic response :)
 
But how do you account for the historical persecution of the Shia during the Caliphate, then? Or the antagonism between the Safavids and Ottomans (surely, the Sunni and Shia problem added to the conflict between the two empires)? All of this was before Western colonization.

I'll be like you and blame it on power politics rather then religion atleast when it came to Ottoman safvid split - not religion realy to blame.

furthermore when did the caliphate persecute the shia? - you do know what the Caliphate period is right? - the shia were not around then - they came about after the reign of Ali (ra) the last rightly guided caliph (although some say Umar abdul aziz (ra) was the last rightly guided caliph).
 
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