Hezbollah declares Open War on Israel

[Trumble]

So what facts are exactly you are talking about. Can you list down them as to how you are saying something different than "the_prince". Something like:

1.the_prince=
you=

2.the_prince=
you=

I'm really sorry for asking so much but I would really like to understand as to what is that you two are arguing about which I failed to grasp.

Very well.

We seem to agree on one point; that the 'winner' of that (or any) war should be considered the side that best achieves their objectives at the outset of the campaign. The_Prince is suggesting that it is a 'fact' that the Arab side did so, and 'won' while the Israelis failed to do so and therefore 'lost'. He seems to think that the only reason people might think there was an Israeli victory was because they killed more enemy soldiers (which is not disputed), but nowhere can I see any evidence anybody does think that.

The facts are as follows. The Arab side had two objectives in 1973, the Egyptians to seize back the Sinai and the Syrians the Golan Heights, both territories having been occupied by Israel in 1967. They had several reasons for wanting to do so, not only restoration of pride and territorial integrity but both areas, particularly Golan, were of considerable strategic importance as buffer zones between Israel and hostile neighbours. The Israelis had the objectives of retaining control of those areas and (should things have gone really pear-shaped) of preventing further Syrian incursion into Israeli controlled territory. The war ended with Israel in possession of the Golan Heights, indeed they had pushed the Syrians back beyond the 1967 border. The war ended with Israel in possession of the Sinai, and their troops had crossed the canal and were pushing on into Egypt. While Egyptian troops remained on parts of the east bank of the canal their position was, by that time, untenable and withdrawl would have been inevitable (if it was still possible) to prevent being surrounded and cut off. In my opinion, therefore, the Israelis achieved all their objectives and the Arabs none (other than, as I said earlier, perhaps restoring some military pride). I see no evidence whatsoever that supports the reverse conclusion.

Several years later, the Sinai was returned to Egypt as part of the Israel/Egypt peace agreement. The_Prince seems to be claiming that this was somehow a direct consequence of Egyptian military success and formed part of the cease-fire terms. It did not. Both Egypt and Israel had good reasons to do a deal (and the Israelis were under huge pressure from the Americans to do so).. a deal which, incidently, was roundly condemned by most other Arab nations which is hardly indicitive that THEY saw it as any sort of 'victory'. The Israelis were happy enough to hand it over as they had no real territorial claim there, it is mostly uninhabited desert and, with peace agreed, no need for a military buffer zone. Such a peace was never agreed with Syria, hence the Israelis remain in possession of the Golan.

As you will appreciate, all of that has nothing whatsoever to do with who may 'support' the "Zionist regime" or not. There are a great many articles on the war available on the internet from a variety of sources, so you may wish to do some further research yourself if you are interested.

 

[Roasted Cashew]

Very well.

We seem to agree on one point; that the 'winner' of that (or any) war should be considered the side that best achieves their objectives at the outset of the campaign. The_Prince is suggesting that it is a 'fact' that the Arab side did so, and 'won' while the Israelis failed to do so and therefore 'lost'. He seems to think that the only reason people might think there was an Israeli victory was because they killed more enemy soldiers (which is not disputed), but nowhere can I see any evidence anybody does think that.

The facts are as follows. The Arab side had two objectives in 1973, the Egyptians to seize back the Sinai and the Syrians the Golan Heights, both territories having been occupied by Israel in 1967. They had several reasons for wanting to do so, not only restoration of pride and territorial integrity but both areas, particularly Golan, were of considerable strategic importance as buffer zones between Israel and hostile neighbours. The Israelis had the objectives of retaining control of those areas and (should things have gone really pear-shaped) of preventing further Syrian incursion into Israeli controlled territory. The war ended with Israel in possession of the Golan Heights, indeed they had pushed the Syrians back beyond the 1967 border. The war ended with Israel in possession of the Sinai, and their troops had crossed the canal and were pushing on into Egypt. While Egyptian troops remained on parts of the east bank of the canal their position was, by that time, untenable and withdrawl would have been inevitable (if it was still possible) to prevent being surrounded and cut off. In my opinion, therefore, the Israelis achieved all their objectives and the Arabs none (other than, as I said earlier, perhaps restoring some military pride). I see no evidence whatsoever that supports the reverse conclusion.

Several years later, the Sinai was returned to Egypt as part of the Israel/Egypt peace agreement. The_Prince seems to be claiming that this was somehow a direct consequence of Egyptian military success and formed part of the cease-fire terms. It did not. Both Egypt and Israel had good reasons to do a deal (and the Israelis were under huge pressure from the Americans to do so).. a deal which, incidently, was roundly condemned by most other Arab nations which is hardly indicitive that THEY saw it as any sort of 'victory'. The Israelis were happy enough to hand it over as they had no real territorial claim there, it is mostly uninhabited desert and, with peace agreed, no need for a military buffer zone. Such a peace was never agreed with Syria, hence the Israelis remain in possession of the Golan.

As you will appreciate, all of that has nothing whatsoever to do with who may 'support' the "Zionist regime" or not. There are a great many articles on the war available on the internet from a variety of sources, so you may wish to do some further research yourself if you are interested.

I would agree with you on this one. Indeed Israel "WON".

 

[krypton6]

Well they didn't hand over the Al-Qaeda terrorists which were in their country and instead choose to go to war which was then responsible for so many deaths of Afghani people. They are also behind some Suicide bombings in Pakistan. They are also extremists. They don't allow education to women and it's also reported that they killed a few girls who choose to go to school. I am sorry sister. But, I don't see them as fighting for their land. They choose to protect OSAMA, that just says it all.

There are no al-Qaida "terrorists", attacking the same people feeding the forces traumatizing every muslims life is not terrorism.

They have their bad sides and their good sides. They allow education to woman but since the people are poor they will have to chose between educating the boy or the girl, and the logical would be too educate the boy instead of the girl. They have never ever executed any person for anything other than public zina and national betrayel.

 

[Trumble]

They allow education to woman but since the people are poor they will have to chose between educating the boy or the girl, and the logical would be too educate the boy instead of the girl.

Where on earth did you get that fairy story from? As excuses go that is utterly pathetic.

 

[Moon*Light]

Israel has next to US the strongest and hightec army in the world. You will not tell me that Israelis ever lost a war, specially not against bimbos than Hamas.

You know it is really not my job or problem to educate you about what happened in the 2006 war and what the Israelis themselves have admitted that they have failed and were defeated. Heck if they admitted that why do you and others keep denying it?

*shrug* they also take the threat issued by Hizba'Allah very seriously.

To quote Perez, in 2006 war, it is an issue of life and death.

In the end all we have to do is wait and see no?

 

[krypton6]

Where on earth did you get that fairy story from? As excuses go that is utterly pathetic.

I reached the conclusion by thinking logically. The people are very poor, noone can aford sending both the boy and the girl to school, they will have to chose either the boy or the girl, the logic goes that you chose the boy because he is the one who is going to take care of his future family (and current), while the girl will be taken care of by her future husband.
They are just trying to survive, it seems perfectly fine to me that they educate boys and not girls.

Its a brilliant excuse working perfectly fine and fully justifying why woman were not educated under the Taliban.

 

[wilberhum]

woman were not educated under the Taliban.

They see no value because they are misogynistic barbarians.

 

[Cognescenti]

Prince;

Come on man. You have a semblance of an arugment on the 2006 thing but the Yom Kippur war, although a close run thing at the start for the Israelis (as they were caught unprepared with no mobilization) was an astounding military victory for the Israelis.

They crossed the Suez Canal under the eyes of a fully prepared Egyptian Army, defeated all counterattacks, cut off an entire Egyptian Army and were 40 miles from Cairo mg:

Don't give any BS about American equipement either. They had some British tanks and obscolescent American tanks but the Egyptians had the best stuff the Russians had.

I suggest to look to other possible explanations for the Arab defeat. I know it stings a bit, but that doesn't make it any less real.

A picture is worth a thousand words:

 

[Roasted Cashew]

Prince;

Come on man. You have a semblance of an arugment on the 2006 thing but the Yom Kippur war, although a close run thing at the start for the Israelis (as they were caught unprepared with no mobilization) was an astounding military victory for the Israelis.

They crossed the Suez Canal under the eyes of a fully prepared Egyptian Army, defeated all counterattacks, cut off an entire Egyptian Army and were 40 miles from Cairo mg:

This reminds me of another frequently asked question:
Why did seven well equipped Arab armies attempt to destroy the poorly armed and newly founded 'Jewish State'?

This is nothing but baseless myth. Answer below:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story457.html

 

[Habil]

It's highly dubious wether Hezbollah will attain any "victory" except not being totally erradicated by the israeli Army. That was the outcome of the past 34-day long war and it will be the outcome of a newly declared war. That the assasination of one of his leaders is the work of the Mossad I have no doubt about it.
Only the development of strong economies in the neighbouring muslim countries could stop the israelis from commiting attrocities like the one we have just witnessed. May Allah give his Ummah the revival it has been waiting for centuries.

 

[Moon*Light]

Israelis will commit atrocities bro Habil whether there are good economies or not (though they should be good economies of course), have we all forgotten the nature of Zionists? And that "Israel" is the only occupying state that doesn't have a border? They live on war and expansion.

 

[Cognescenti]

This reminds me of another frequently asked question:
Why did seven well equipped Arab armies attempt to destroy the poorly armed and newly founded 'Jewish State'?

This is nothing but baseless myth. Answer below:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story457.html

So you admit then the argument is lost? We were talking about 1973. Nobody here said anything about 194x.

BTW...using a phrase like "filthy Zionists" pretty much demonstrates the collapse of your argument. I personally couldn't care less about Israel. If they want to keep living that is their job, not mine.

 

[MaiCarInMtl]

Regarding the war..

Hezbollah's strenght was: 600-1,000 easily trained soldiers and 3,000-10,000 voluntears.
Israel's strenght was: 10,000-30,000 highly trained soldiers.

Hezbollah lost 250 men (some voluntears some soldiers).
Israel lost 121 men (soldiers).

850-1200 Lebanese killed (civilians), 4410 injured.
44 Israelis killed ("civilians"), 1500 injured.

This is why I am so sad. Kill all the military people you want, target military installations, I don't care, it's all fair game in the game of war. My heart is heavy for the innocent civilians that die each and every day and their families that are left behind to pick up the pieces.

Dont worry this one happend in "Israel". Sooo beautiful and it wasent even a large rocket.

Destruction is never beautiful. Keep in mind that things were and still are much worse on the Lebanese side of the border. For every single building damaged in Israel, there are dozens more completely destroyed in Lebanon.

God help Lebanon, God help us all!

 

[krypton6]

It's highly dubious wether Hezbollah will attain any "victory" except not being totally erradicated by the israeli Army. That was the outcome of the past 34-day long war and it will be the outcome of a newly declared war. That the assasination of one of his leaders is the work of the Mossad I have no doubt about it.
Only the development of strong economies in the neighbouring muslim countries could stop the israelis from commiting attrocities like the one we have just witnessed. May Allah give his Ummah the revival it has been waiting for centuries.

What the hell are you talking about!? They did attain victory! As weak as they may be they won greatly and through out the 34 day long war they proved that they could at any time keep up with the israeli army!

This is why I am so sad. Kill all the military people you want, target military installations, I don't care, it's all fair game in the game of war. My heart is heavy for the innocent civilians that die each and every day and their families that are left behind to pick up the pieces.

I agree, but in "Israel" there is no difference between a soldier and a civilian, they are all invaders, they have all stolen from muslims, and they all refuse to give back what they stole.

Hezbollah cannot chose who to kill inside of Israel. They have rockets and with a rocket its not up to you wether you kill a armed or unarmed man. But as I just said, in "Israel" there is no difference between a soldier and a "civilian", they are all invaders, they have all stolen from muslims, and they all refuse to give back what they stole.

Destruction is never beautiful. Keep in mind that things were and still are much worse on the Lebanese side of the border. For every single building damaged in Israel, there are dozens more completely destroyed in Lebanon.

God help Lebanon, God help us all!

Yes surely Lebanon was hit much harder than what Israel was, but it doesnt change the fact that seing a israeli building destroyed is beautiful.

You cant blaim Hezbollah for the deaths of the lebanese civilians, because "Israel" bombed just as much outside of the Hezbollah area than what they bombed inside. IDF believe that it is allright to destroy any neighborhood that is located inside of the southern Lebanon, but keep in mind that they bombed just as much in middle and north Lebanon than what they did in the south so they are even braking their own laws.

 

[Keltoi]

If Hezbollah achieved "victory" I would hate to see what a Hezbollah defeat looks like.

 

[MTAFFI]

You cant blaim Hezbollah for the deaths of the lebanese civilians, because "Israel" bombed just as much outside of the Hezbollah area than what they bombed inside. IDF believe that it is allright to destroy any neighborhood that is located inside of the southern Lebanon, but keep in mind that they bombed just as much in middle and north Lebanon than what they did in the south so they are even braking their own laws.

right but then in the paragraph before you say, "you cant control who a rocket kills"

you are a deluded, sad and sick human being.... I will pray for you

 

[MTAFFI]

of course they are freaked if they are closing up borders. israelis are stupid, blood thirsty criminals, they wont attack hizbullah they will attack innocent people.

first let me make sure it is known, I dont care for israel or if they exist or not... I have more important things to worry about...

My question for you is how do they know the difference between an innocent person or a hezbollah fighter? If they fight from civilian homes, on civilian ground, with no distinguishing features, who knows the difference? If hezbollah cared anything about the lebanese they would be true warriors and standout from the civilians and fight a true battle, rather than hiding amongst them putting them in harms way.

Peace

 

[MTAFFI]

Well MTAFFI, they are very freaked out, yesterday I watched a report about the movement on the Lebanese- "Israeli" border, zip not an Israeli in sight, all the soldiers are hiding lol!

Spat? Even the Israelis called it a war and many were killed, why do you think one of the reasons they opened an investigation on the war. Read up about Winograd report and you'll know how serious this is.

OK lets say they are freaked out, how do you think the Lebanese will react when Israel says they are going to launch another military campaign in their area... Last time they were evacuating, many couldnt escape and died, will that happen in Israel? Who is going to suffer more because of a conflict between Israel and Hezbollah? I will give you a hint, NOT ISRAEL, I hope that was good enough of a hint. You and others can be happy about this and laugh because the Israelis are going home, but to me this is just another waste of human life and nothing, absolutely nothing, is funny about it. Will hezbollah suffer casualities? Yes... Will Israel? Yes... Will either benefit anything from it other than getting the opportunity to launch some rockets and maybe knock off a couple enemies? No.

The 2006 war claimed the lives of 619 troops (hebollah[est. 500] and israeli [119]) and 1,235 civilians(Lebanese [1191] and israeli [44].. More civilians than troops... Who is the winner? What is the purpose? What is the grand prize?:-\

 

[krypton6]

right but then in the paragraph before you say, "you cant control who a rocket kills"

you are a deluded, sad and sick human being.... I will pray for you

With a fighter jet and a missile you can chose the exact location, that is impossible with a rocket launched from one country to another.

In the same way that you might see me as a deluded, sad and sick human being, I see you as deluded, sad and sick betrayer who is defending the same people who have robbed, tortured and killed muslims and yet refuse to give back what they stole or even apologize for what they have already done.

please.. dont pray for me, your the one who needs to be prayed for, but I'm not going to be the one wasting a prayer for you..

 

[krypton6]

The 2006 war claimed the lives of 619 troops (hebollah[est. 500] and israeli [119]) and 1,235 civilians(Lebanese [1191] and israeli [44].. More civilians than troops... Who is the winner? What is the purpose? What is the grand prize?:-\

ha..! When speaking about Hezbollah deaths you take the western estimation instead of the number granted to you by Hezbollah, but when speaking about the israeli deaths you take the number granted to you by the israelis themselves. you must be israeli eh..??