Geronimo
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The Germans are great bookkeepers, even they said it happened. What about all those pictures showing the camps and mass graves?
Holocaust cartoon fair opens in Iran
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QuranStudy
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At first, the Germans said 3 million. Now its six million lol.
Geronimo
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even if it's 3 million that's not a small number.
QuranStudy
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That is what I meant by "awefully exaggerated." They simply doubled the statistics.
Geronimo
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Evidence of the existence of the Holocaust was well documented by the heavily bureaucratic German government itself. It was further well documented by the Allied forces who entered Germany and its associated Axis states towards the end of World War II. Among the evidence produced was film and stills of the existence of prisoner camps, as well as the testimony of those freed when the camps were entered.
The Holocaust was a massive undertaking that lasted for years across several countries, with its own command and control infrastructure. Although the Nazis made attempts to destroy the evidence of the Holocaust when they could see that their defeat was imminent, they left many tons of documents relating to the Holocaust. Due to the extremely rapid collapse of the Nazi forces at the end of the war, attempts to destroy evidence in Germany were for the most part unsuccessful.
After their defeat, many tons of documents were recovered, and many thousands of bodies were found not yet completely decomposed, in mass graves near many concentration camps. The physical evidence and the documentary proof included records of train shipments of Jews to the camps, orders for tons of cyanide and other poisons, and the remaining concentration camp structures. Interviews with survivors completed the picture.
As a result of the records produced, all mainstream historians agree that Holocaust denial is contrary to the facts of history.
Deniers consider one of their stronger arguments to be the population of Jews before and after the Holocaust. They claim that the 1940 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,319,359, while the 1949 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,713,638. In their view this makes it impossible that 6 million Jews died, even given an extremely high birth rate. They therefore claim that either the figures are wrong, or the Holocaust, meaning the deliberate extermination of millions of Jews, cannot have happened.
However, as is typically the case, the evidence given by Holocaust deniers does not stand up to closer scrutiny. In fact, the 1949 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 11,266,600. Moreover, it revises its estimate of the World Jewish population in 1939 upwards, to 16,643,120. Thus, according to the 1949 World Almanac the difference between the pre and post war populations is over 5.4 million.
In addition, rather than using more accurate census figures and other records, Holocaust deniers rely on a popular compendium whose methodology of assessment is unknown, and whose estimates have varied significantly. For example, the 1982 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 14,318,000, while the 1990 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 18,169,000, and the 1996 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 13,451,000. Either 3.7 million Jews appeared unnoticed between 1982 and 1990, and then 4.5 million Jews disappeared equally unnoticed between 1990 and 1996, or the World Almanac is not a particularly reliable source for accurate estimates of worldwide Jewish population.
Finally, Holocaust deniers can be very selective when citing sources; other sources give very different figures for the Jewish population before and after the war. For example, the 1932 American Jewish yearbook estimate the total number of Jews in the world at 15,192,218, of whom 9,418,248 resided in Europe. However, the 1947 yearbook states: "Estimates of the world Jewish population have been assembled by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (except for the United States and Canada) and are probably the most authentic available at the present time. The figures reveal that the total Jewish population of the world has decreased by one-third from about 16,600,000 in 1939 to about 11,000,000 in 1946 as the result of the annihilation by the Nazis of more than five and a half million European Jews. In Europe only an estimated 3,642,000 remain of the total Jewish pre-war population of approximately 9,740,000."
This selectivity means that Holocaust deniers often ignore the documents produced by the Nazis themselves, who used figures of between 9 and 11 million for the Jewish population of Europe, as evidenced in the notes of the Wannsee Conference. In fact, the Nazis methodically recorded the ongoing reduction of the Jewish population, as in the Korherr Report, which gave the status of the Final Solution through December, 1942:
The total number of Jews in the world in 1937 is generally estimated at around 17 million, thereof more than 10 million in Europe... From 1937 to the beginning of 1943 the number of Jews, partially due to the excess mortality of the Jews in Central and Western Europe, partially due to the evacuations especially in the more strongly populated Eastern Territories which are here counted as off-going, should have diminished by an estimated 4 million. It must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded, whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not included at all.... On the whole European Jewry should since 1933, i.e. in the first decade of National Socialist German power, have lost almost half of its population.
The Holocaust was a massive undertaking that lasted for years across several countries, with its own command and control infrastructure. Although the Nazis made attempts to destroy the evidence of the Holocaust when they could see that their defeat was imminent, they left many tons of documents relating to the Holocaust. Due to the extremely rapid collapse of the Nazi forces at the end of the war, attempts to destroy evidence in Germany were for the most part unsuccessful.
After their defeat, many tons of documents were recovered, and many thousands of bodies were found not yet completely decomposed, in mass graves near many concentration camps. The physical evidence and the documentary proof included records of train shipments of Jews to the camps, orders for tons of cyanide and other poisons, and the remaining concentration camp structures. Interviews with survivors completed the picture.
As a result of the records produced, all mainstream historians agree that Holocaust denial is contrary to the facts of history.
Deniers consider one of their stronger arguments to be the population of Jews before and after the Holocaust. They claim that the 1940 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,319,359, while the 1949 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,713,638. In their view this makes it impossible that 6 million Jews died, even given an extremely high birth rate. They therefore claim that either the figures are wrong, or the Holocaust, meaning the deliberate extermination of millions of Jews, cannot have happened.
However, as is typically the case, the evidence given by Holocaust deniers does not stand up to closer scrutiny. In fact, the 1949 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 11,266,600. Moreover, it revises its estimate of the World Jewish population in 1939 upwards, to 16,643,120. Thus, according to the 1949 World Almanac the difference between the pre and post war populations is over 5.4 million.
In addition, rather than using more accurate census figures and other records, Holocaust deniers rely on a popular compendium whose methodology of assessment is unknown, and whose estimates have varied significantly. For example, the 1982 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 14,318,000, while the 1990 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 18,169,000, and the 1996 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 13,451,000. Either 3.7 million Jews appeared unnoticed between 1982 and 1990, and then 4.5 million Jews disappeared equally unnoticed between 1990 and 1996, or the World Almanac is not a particularly reliable source for accurate estimates of worldwide Jewish population.
Finally, Holocaust deniers can be very selective when citing sources; other sources give very different figures for the Jewish population before and after the war. For example, the 1932 American Jewish yearbook estimate the total number of Jews in the world at 15,192,218, of whom 9,418,248 resided in Europe. However, the 1947 yearbook states: "Estimates of the world Jewish population have been assembled by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (except for the United States and Canada) and are probably the most authentic available at the present time. The figures reveal that the total Jewish population of the world has decreased by one-third from about 16,600,000 in 1939 to about 11,000,000 in 1946 as the result of the annihilation by the Nazis of more than five and a half million European Jews. In Europe only an estimated 3,642,000 remain of the total Jewish pre-war population of approximately 9,740,000."
This selectivity means that Holocaust deniers often ignore the documents produced by the Nazis themselves, who used figures of between 9 and 11 million for the Jewish population of Europe, as evidenced in the notes of the Wannsee Conference. In fact, the Nazis methodically recorded the ongoing reduction of the Jewish population, as in the Korherr Report, which gave the status of the Final Solution through December, 1942:
The total number of Jews in the world in 1937 is generally estimated at around 17 million, thereof more than 10 million in Europe... From 1937 to the beginning of 1943 the number of Jews, partially due to the excess mortality of the Jews in Central and Western Europe, partially due to the evacuations especially in the more strongly populated Eastern Territories which are here counted as off-going, should have diminished by an estimated 4 million. It must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded, whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not included at all.... On the whole European Jewry should since 1933, i.e. in the first decade of National Socialist German power, have lost almost half of its population.
Asalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakhatu.
If you're going to make such a big claim brother Mashud, then make sure you know what you're talking about and not just trying to be controversial.
Remember the ayah of the Quran: -
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well Acquainted with what you do. (4:135)
It is pretty clear that the holocaust did happen - if you believe otherwise then you must bring clear evidence to support your claim.
Don't simply say it didn't happen because of a vendetta against Israel or the West - this is to 'distort your witness'.
Subhanallah - keep in mind the importance of justice in Islam.
To everyone who said the following :-
Remember this hadith : -
The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The character and teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) are so beautiful and important. It's disgusting that we think we can defend our beloved while abandoning all that he taught us. To honour Muhammad (pbuh) we shouldn't insult others, or hurt others, or seek to cause disruption - to honour him we should follow his example.
I feel so embaressed, wallahi, that this fair is even linked to our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we should cut our ties from it and distance ourselves, our Prophet (pbuh) and Islam from it.
Asalamu alaykum.
If you're going to make such a big claim brother Mashud, then make sure you know what you're talking about and not just trying to be controversial.
Remember the ayah of the Quran: -
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well Acquainted with what you do. (4:135)
It is pretty clear that the holocaust did happen - if you believe otherwise then you must bring clear evidence to support your claim.
Don't simply say it didn't happen because of a vendetta against Israel or the West - this is to 'distort your witness'.
Subhanallah - keep in mind the importance of justice in Islam.
To everyone who said the following :-
Remember this hadith : -
The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The character and teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) are so beautiful and important. It's disgusting that we think we can defend our beloved while abandoning all that he taught us. To honour Muhammad (pbuh) we shouldn't insult others, or hurt others, or seek to cause disruption - to honour him we should follow his example.
I feel so embaressed, wallahi, that this fair is even linked to our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we should cut our ties from it and distance ourselves, our Prophet (pbuh) and Islam from it.
Asalamu alaykum.
azim said:
I have always had an interest in history at one point read about the holocaust – and felt sympathy with the Jews.
Then I saw that they treated some of their Arab citizens unfairly and my sympathy was with the Palestinians.
The response of the Palestinians was to become violent. My sympathy swung back to the Jews.
If the Palestinians and for that matter ALL Muslims made peaceful protests the world sympathy would be with them! If only they had followed the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh)
Hashim_507
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This is totally wrong and its unislamic. Whether you believed or not so many lives was lost in the holacaust, not all of them are jews in the holacaust. The people includes muslims,polish, and other europeans. This would not benefit muslims its going to dregraded us. Shame on Iran!!
Trumble
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I just don't see what Iran is trying to achieve.
A great many non-muslims in the West were distressed that the Danish cartoons caused so much offence to muslims, and did not want to see it repeated. Now far fewer will care whether muslims are offended in future or not... they will be, and that will lead to further anger and violence. The contrast is not good - I don't see Jews across the world burning embassies and demanding "death to Iran" because of this "fair".
By making Holocaust denial a national institution the Iranians are just evoking the contempt of the rest of the world, far beyond that of Israel and the US.
A great many non-muslims in the West were distressed that the Danish cartoons caused so much offence to muslims, and did not want to see it repeated. Now far fewer will care whether muslims are offended in future or not... they will be, and that will lead to further anger and violence. The contrast is not good - I don't see Jews across the world burning embassies and demanding "death to Iran" because of this "fair".
By making Holocaust denial a national institution the Iranians are just evoking the contempt of the rest of the world, far beyond that of Israel and the US.
Woodrow
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I'm confused. If this was supposed to be a challange to the Danes. how come it is nothing that the average Dane would take as personaly offensive. If it is to gain anti-Israel support, isn't it targeted at the wrong people.
Propaganda or publicity wise, I do not think this plan was well thought out.
Looks like a lot of noise, that will have no results anywhere in the world.
Propaganda or publicity wise, I do not think this plan was well thought out.
Looks like a lot of noise, that will have no results anywhere in the world.
me 2
Very true. As Muslims we should keep in mind that we had support from many in the West, especially in Britain.
No law or bill will ever prevent our Prophet (pbuh) from being ridiculed or insulted in the future - only understanding from non-Muslims of our feelings and sensitivities will prevent this happening in the future. A fair insutling those who died in the holocaust is not going to acheive this - infact it will acheive very little.
I'd just like to mention that many peaceful protests (marches and demonstrations) are held in the Arab world - including Iraq and Palestine. Although sometimes violence is used - I would argue at times this violence is justified and at other times it is uncessary.
SirZubair
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By the way, some of you are hypocrites.
Yes, i said Hypocrites.
i'll say it again, H Y P O C R I T E S.
You cry a river when a newspaper prints something that you find offensive, but you show support for such crap?
Subhan'allah.
Some of you talk big when it comes to 'i love islam...' 'i follow the quran and sunnah...'
Display it once every now and then, it might do you some good.
Aud'billah.
Some of you people make me SICK.
Yes, i said Hypocrites.
i'll say it again, H Y P O C R I T E S.
You cry a river when a newspaper prints something that you find offensive, but you show support for such crap?
Subhan'allah.
Some of you talk big when it comes to 'i love islam...' 'i follow the quran and sunnah...'
Display it once every now and then, it might do you some good.
Aud'billah.
Some of you people make me SICK.
SirZubair
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What i cannot understand is where some of these people learn their Islam.
Islam has thre essential aspects or levels. They are Islam, Iman and Ihsan.
Islam, In the lexical context, means surrender and submission to the commands of Allah Ta'ala.
Iman (belief) lexically means affirmation and confirmation in the heart.
Ihsan, means goodness, to strive for excellence in achieving piety.
Don't get stuck on one of them, complete all three.
Don't be a muslim by name, be a muslim by character.
Islam has thre essential aspects or levels. They are Islam, Iman and Ihsan.
Islam, In the lexical context, means surrender and submission to the commands of Allah Ta'ala.
Iman (belief) lexically means affirmation and confirmation in the heart.
Ihsan, means goodness, to strive for excellence in achieving piety.
Don't get stuck on one of them, complete all three.
Don't be a muslim by name, be a muslim by character.
sameer
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Prophet Muhammad (saw) retook mecca without blood shed even though they mocked him (the real person), tried to kill/hurt him and his family, not to mention torture the muslims. Didnt the Quarish see his generosity and then came to islam beacuse of it?
So are u guys disappointed that the prophet(saw) didnt kill off or took revenge against these ppl who did more than ridicule him?
I agree that the Prophet (saw) fought wars with ppl on different tribes, I dont thin he fought anywars for anyone calling him names etc. While we all get angry about the cartoons about him, we have to think out if our actions in retaliation would hurt the Ummah in the long run or it would benefit it.
How about channel ure efforts into educatin ppl about why we love/emulate the prophet (saw) instead. Insha ALlah they may take shahada..... - would this trade fair encourage ppl to accept islam? or to understand the type of man the prophet(saw) was?
Sahih Bukhari
Volumn 003, Book 049, Hadith Number 862.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Al-Bara bin 'Azib : When Allah's Apostle concluded a peace treaty with the people of Hudaibiya, Ali bin Abu Talib wrote the document and he mentioned in it, "Muhammad, Allah's Apostle." The pagans said, "Don't write: 'Muhammad, Allah's Apostle', for if you were an apostle we would not fight with you." Allah's Apostle asked Ali to rub it out, but Ali said, "I will not be the person to rub it out." Allah's Apostle rubbed it out and made peace with them on the condition that the Prophet and his companions would enter Mecca and stay there for three days, and that they would enter with their weapons in cases.
Look at the wisdom of the prophet (saw), in the interest of peace and to gain the objective, he didnt sign as "messenger of Allah".
So are u guys disappointed that the prophet(saw) didnt kill off or took revenge against these ppl who did more than ridicule him?
I agree that the Prophet (saw) fought wars with ppl on different tribes, I dont thin he fought anywars for anyone calling him names etc. While we all get angry about the cartoons about him, we have to think out if our actions in retaliation would hurt the Ummah in the long run or it would benefit it.
How about channel ure efforts into educatin ppl about why we love/emulate the prophet (saw) instead. Insha ALlah they may take shahada..... - would this trade fair encourage ppl to accept islam? or to understand the type of man the prophet(saw) was?
Sahih Bukhari
Volumn 003, Book 049, Hadith Number 862.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Al-Bara bin 'Azib : When Allah's Apostle concluded a peace treaty with the people of Hudaibiya, Ali bin Abu Talib wrote the document and he mentioned in it, "Muhammad, Allah's Apostle." The pagans said, "Don't write: 'Muhammad, Allah's Apostle', for if you were an apostle we would not fight with you." Allah's Apostle asked Ali to rub it out, but Ali said, "I will not be the person to rub it out." Allah's Apostle rubbed it out and made peace with them on the condition that the Prophet and his companions would enter Mecca and stay there for three days, and that they would enter with their weapons in cases.
Look at the wisdom of the prophet (saw), in the interest of peace and to gain the objective, he didnt sign as "messenger of Allah".
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