How can God dwell inside of you?

[Indigåtor]

Fedos,

Thanks for answering one paragraph out of my post.

You speak of Mercy and Justice. As you do this, you are unknowingly denying the omnipotence of God. Muslims and Jews equally believe in these two attributes but they define them in a more rational manner. A God characterized with 'perfect justice' and 'perfect mercy' does not decree redemption. You can hide all you want behind the fireplace of the 'foolishness of the wise' argument [nothing more than an escape from reason] but the fact of the matter will forever remain that God -- perfectly just and merciful -- works not by sacrificial redemption nor atonement based on mere works. Neither. Furthermore, your God is imperfect for He appears to be incapable establishing the original concept of salvation. He's plain powerless.

According to the prophet of Islam, deeds do not grant anyone heaven; it is utter faith and submission in God that purifies the soul and atones its faults, providing it salvation. As in Christianity, good works are taught to be proof of faith, and faith and works are inseparable. Embracing the doctrine of a Christened atonement, Abrahamaically speaking, will not in a million years absolve your sin as much as it may be comforting to the Christian. The original and uncorrupted God demands that a servant prove himself worthy of His grace. This is done by submitting the body and soul to Him and believing without wavering or taking false gods. Christ's created anatomy [which you failed to address] is incapable of saving your soul.

As sad it appears, a Christian cannot connect with an unseen God, hence he finds relief in the false portraits of Yeheshuwa and his statues as reminders of God's anthropomorphous image.

God is considered almighty - yet his mightiness is shattered by Christianity, a religion that has invented a tempting doctrine to escape the judgement of an unchanging God by interpreting Yeheshuwa's words in a twisted fashion.

And that's the bottom line, 'cause God said so. There is no escape in the heavens or in the earth from His wrath, not even through a erroneously deified messiah. The only path to mercy and spiritual guidance is as the Qur'an or Torah would purport: submission; surrendering your whole being to your creator and embracing Him without seeing Him. Then, and only then, are you considered 'holy', possessing the power not to sin [by intention].

But the wisdom of the Christian is foolishness unto Allah or Yahweh, and the Lord has confounded the polytheists for they have taken security in the worship of what He produced into being - Yeheshuwa, an anointed prophet sent to the Sons of Israel.

NOTE: My comments are merely hypothetical as I do not believe in any god or religion - I'm here to make us 'come now and reason together'

 

[mkh4JC]

Fedos,

Thanks for answering one paragraph out of my post.

You speak of Mercy and Justice. As you do this, you are unknowingly denying the omnipotence of God. Muslims and Jews equally believe in these two attributes but they define them in a more rational manner. A God characterized with 'perfect justice' and 'perfect mercy' does not decree redemption. You can hide all you want behind the fireplace of the 'foolishness of the wise' argument [nothing more than an escape from reason] but the fact of the matter will forever remain that God -- perfectly just and merciful -- works not by sacrificial redemption nor atonement based on mere works. Neither. Furthermore, your God is imperfect for He appears to be incapable establishing the original concept of salvation. He's plain powerless.

The plan of salvation was established throughout the Old Testament in the requirement of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins. The Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New, or a picture of the New. And no, blood sacrifice is not a pagan practice. I do not believe that an almighty, all knowing creator would begin to reveal himself to mankind through the Old Testament and allow it to become corrupted, as if he doesn't have the power to stop it.

According to the prophet of Islam, deeds do not grant anyone heaven; it is utter faith and submission in God that purifies the soul and atones its faults, providing it salvation. As in Christianity, good works are taught to be proof of faith, and faith and works are inseparable. Embracing the doctrine of a Christened atonement, Abrahamaically speaking, will not in a million years absolve your sin as much as it may be comforting to the Christian.

The thief on the cross when he was about to die asked Christ to just remember him when he comes into his kingdom and Jesus told him that today he would be with him in paradise. This is someone who was about to die and had not lived a righteous life before God, nor did he have good works. And as I said, you do good works when you are a Christian because God puts it on your heart to do them.

The original and uncorrupted God demands that a servant prove himself worthy of His grace. This is done by submitting the body and soul to Him and believing without wavering or taking false gods. Christ's created anatomy [which you failed to address] is incapable of saving your soul.

No. God demands that we live righteous before him, because he is holy and he wants his servants to be holy as well. You can't prove yourself to be worthy of God's grace, because none of us are worthy of it. And Christ literally stepped down from the throne of heaven and entered into the womb of Mary so I fail to see your point here.

As sad it appears, a Christian cannot connect with an unseen God, hence he finds relief in the false portraits of Yeheshuwa and his statues as reminders of God's anthropomorphous image.

This is a very Catholic doctrine, and I as a born again Christian do not put much stock in Catholicism.

God is considered almighty - yet his mightiness is shattered by Christianity, a religion that has invented a tempting doctrine to escape the judgement of an unchanging God by interpreting Yeheshuwa's words in a twisted fashion.

And that's the bottom line, 'cause God said so. There is no escape in the heavens or in the earth from His wrath, not even through a erroneously deified messiah. The only path to mercy and spiritual guidance is as the Qur'an or Torah would purport: submission; surrendering your whole being to your creator and embracing Him without seeing Him. Then, and only then, are you considered 'holy', possessing the power not to sin [by intention].

You know, rpwelton replied to your last post, but you ignored him.

But the wisdom of the Christian is foolishness unto Allah or Yahweh, and the Lord has confounded the polytheists for they have taken security in the worship of what He produced into being - Yeheshuwa, an anointed prophet sent to the Sons of Israel.

NOTE: My comments are merely hypothetical as I do not believe in any god or religion - I'm here to make us 'come now and reason together'

Well you can either accept what a Christian has to say, or you can choose to reject it. I can't make you believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The most effective thing I can do, is witness to what he has done in my own life.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So you would say the Muslim who abstains from such behavior has more "Jesus" in them?

As long as you put it in "quotes", I'll say YES to your question.


I believe in something known as prevenient grace. This is a type of grace that comes to us all people whereby God reaches out and into people's lives, most often in ways that the people he is touching with his grace are quite unaware of it. But it begins the process that moves them back toward God. To the extent that a Muslim or a Jew or even an athiest is moved back toward the things of God, I believe that is a result of this prompting that God does in our lives, because apart from God's grace I also believe that we humans are so fallen that we can do no good thing completely on our own power. So, YES, the person who is responding (even if completely unaware or while consciously fighting God) to this movement of grace in their lives that leads them to live more in keeping with the ways of God has, to some extent, been touched by the hand of God. That's not what Christians usually mean when we refer to a person having "Jesus in them" -- and I think that more common usage is what Fedos might have been thinking of in his response above -- but I can still affirm that Jesus is there, moving in and through them in the form of His Holy Spirit, whether they are aware of it or not.

 

[Grace Seeker]

This has been a most interesting thread to just sit back and read and not respond to. But now that I have, I wish to go back to the OP and address a few things that I didn't see addressed in the course of my readings. And I begin with a question of the OP:

OK, so this is another trinity-related question, although it doesn't have to do with the confusing nature of the doctrine, but rather the "Holy Ghost" element of it.

So my understanding is that the Holy Ghost is the part of God that lives inside each and every Christian. This spirit causes the person to live a Christian life. I also know that this belief has different meanings to different people, but I think that's the jist of it, right?

OK, so then my question would be this: if God (or a part of Him) is actually living inside of a person, how could that person commit even the smallest, minute sin? The Bible says that God cannot be in the presence of sin, so how can God, Who is Perfect, dwell inside of a creature which is by nature, imperfect?

Thanks!

My question is simple. Where in the Bible does it actually say that God cannot be in the presence of sin?

You see, the fact of the matter is that God must be in the presence of sin if the cross is to be the instrument of atonement that Christians claim it is. It is on the cross, that Christians say that Jesus became the Lamb of God who takest away the sins of the world. Jesus took our sins upon himself, just as the scriptures say: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). And since Christians understand that Jesus is God, then it simply is not true that God cannot be in the presence of sin, for at least at one point in human history he already has been. God was certainly in the presence of sin when Jesus took sin upon himself on the cross.

 

[Grace Seeker]

WOW!! I actually managed to kill this thread with my simple comment.

 

[rpwelton]

This has been a most interesting thread to just sit back and read and not respond to. But now that I have, I wish to go back to the OP and address a few things that I didn't see addressed in the course of my readings. And I begin with a question of the OP:




My question is simple. Where in the Bible does it actually say that God cannot be in the presence of sin?

You see, the fact of the matter is that God must be in the presence of sin if the cross is to be the instrument of atonement that Christians claim it is. It is on the cross, that Christians say that Jesus became the Lamb of God who takest away the sins of the world. Jesus took our sins upon himself, just as the scriptures say: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). And since Christians understand that Jesus is God, then it simply is not true that God cannot be in the presence of sin, for at least at one point in human history he already has been. God was certainly in the presence of sin when Jesus took sin upon himself on the cross.

Nearly forgot about this thread.

OK, so my basic premise was based on what Christians have said, not necessarily from the Bible. Below is a comment from Fedos (from a different thread) talking about this sin/presence thing:

God will not tolerate a sinner in his presence, because he is holy and there is no darkness in him.

I understand that there could be a difference between "sin" and a "sinner", since Jesus himself was obviously not a sinner, but rather he apparently had "absorbed" the sins of the world.

But in the end, if a Christian sins (which he or she most certainly will), then God is technically in the presence of that sinner, since he or she has the "holy spirit" in themselves.

The other problem I think that exists is that Christians tend to build themselves into this highly theoretical life without sin, as if they are living completely holy and pure on this earth. It's all well and good in theory, but nobody actually lives like that. Something about that says to me that a Christian believes they have become "good enough" for God. I think this is quite dangerous.

Again, if I'm wrong in any of my thinking, please correct me. But after reading the multitude of discussions on this board and speaking with Christians around me, that's the impression that I get.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Again, if I'm wrong in any of my thinking, please correct me. But after reading the multitude of discussions on this board and speaking with Christians around me, that's the impression that I get.

You are wrong in your thinking. But I don't say that as a slam against you personally. I can see how you get led that way because there are enough Christians that express what you say (wongly, IMO) to cause the confusion you are experiencing.


I agree that if a Christian sins that God is technically in the presence of that sin, since the Holy Spirit dwells within us. And Christians do sin. We shouldn't, but we do. Fortunately, one of the functions of the Holy Spirit within is to convict us of sin and lead us into righteousness. Those who submit to this leading of the Holy Spirit (and you can hardly call yourself a Christian if you aren't willing to at least try faithfully submit to God's leading in your life), will find themselves less and less falling into sin, but for most of us this is a lifelong learning process.

But as for as the theoretical life without sin, that remains more of an aspiration than a reality for most of us. I'm not going to say that it doesn't ever happen, because with God all things are possible, but simple oberservation tells you that it is not the norm. This by no means excuses sin in a Christian's life. Rather it means that we still need to humbly come before God confessing our sins and seeking his forgiveness, that we need to trust in Christ's righteousness and not our own for salvation, and that we need to keep growing in grace and never be satisfied with a single moment in time when we said YES to God in Jesus -- for if we only said YES once and then walk away from it, it is as if never said YES at all. The genuine Christian life is one of affirming a continual YES to God's call to "be holy and I am holy", and to realize that we can't do that on our own, but only by submitting ourselves to Christ's leading in our lives. But also realize that this sort of sanctification is generally a process and not an instantaneous event, so we must continually give ourselves over to God each and every day, not just as some single decision making point in the past.