How Do Mulsims Resolve the Eyewitness Testimony of the Disciples?

[noselfwilling]

Of course the Christians of today do not follow the gospels of Thomas, Peter or Barnabas. Christianity had already ceased to follow what Jesus(as) taught long before they were written. Christianity vanished from this earth the moment the disciples scattered. Possibly the closest remnant of Christianity are the Coptic of Egypt. They seem to follow the Gospel of Mark in what may actually be the original Aramaic. But sadly even they finally succumbed to pressure from Greece and Rome by adding the Epistles and books of Paul to their scriptures.

At least you have been given the chance to explore Islam and now have some idea of what it is, the decision to escape from hellfire is now your own personal choice. You have been shown the door to the true path, that is all we can do for you.

Since those gnostic texts disagreed with the Biblical texts then Christians didn't follow those gnostic texts back then. Christians believe exactly what the original disciples taught in the first century as it is recorded in the Bible.

That the Bible reported the disciples scattered speaks of the authenticity of the Scriptures, but when they saw Jesus alive from the dead they changed from doubters to bold proclaimers. Jesus predicted to the disciples would deny Him temporarily out of lack of faithfulness. This is part of Christianity so Christianity never changed.

The Coptics do not agree with the Scriptures. Nothing in the Bible including Mark agree with their teachings. One of their heresies is that Jesus was not fully man. There are several others.

Paul, Peter, James and John so they were in complete agreement. Notice all of Paul's writings are included too. Peter, James and John agreed with Paul and spoke highly of him.

I am here talking about this because I don't want you to go to Hell, so I encourage you to realize you have no evidence for claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross. Can you be so humble as to accept that if you don't have evidence for something you shouldn't believe in it blindly? God would never ask you to.

 

[MustafaMc]

At least you have been given the chance to explore Islam and now have some idea of what it is, the decision to escape from hellfire is now your own personal choice. You have been shown the door to the true path, that is all we can do for you.

Ironic isn't it that he is now fully responsible for his rejection of the Truth that there is only One God without father, mother, son, daughter or equal.

 

[جوري]

Re: Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

...and how old is the oldest surviving text of the Bible? The Codex Sinaiticus dates from 350, in other words the 4th century.

Now it gets interesting.. although I'd hate for your skills to be wasted on such small change..

 

[noselfwilling]

You can't prove the dying mangod nonsense anymore than ganesh's head nonsense.. further did you not read bro. Yusuf's post? I recommend you some Bart eherman lectures-- you don't even know on what day he was allegedly crucified let alone that it happened!

I don't accept the bible who said I do? show me where I have made such a claim. The above doesn't explain why god needs sacrifices.. I need a logical reason for it not some biblical nonsense. Your bible also has god fighting with angels or prophets or whomever and losing.. although it is certainly not as bad as self-immolating after a night of self-prayer.. If god couldn't save himself, why would he save you? silly rabbit tricks are for david copperfield! How is my god not loving? further how can your loving god create hell if he were as loving as you allege? You're too funny.. why don't you strike a tent and sell some snake oil I think it might buy you some credibility!

You don't even have to prove Jesus is God to prove Islam is wrong. All you need to do is realize six centuries later a guy in a cave all by himself who refused to give his life to Christ decided to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross. Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD (Gregorian) on Friday. Danie's prophecy predicted exactly to the day when the 4 day inspection of the Lamb would take place.

From the declaration to rebuild the Temple on Nisan 1, 444 BC to when Jesus would enter Jerusalem is exactly 69 sets of seven years at 360 days per year. That comes to 173,880 days which takes us to exactly March 28, 33 AD. The 4 day inspection is March 28, 29, 30, 31. It's an amazing prophecy! Satan has since given a name to this day called April Fool's Day. Satan loves to mock Jesus even though Satan has received a deadly wound by the cross, because those who have died with Christ their old man has died (we posess new life) so Satan doesn't have any flesh to work through. And Satan's accusations are powerless, because God says our sins are forgiven in Christ.

Yes, God contends against the fallen angels. He even lets Satan out of the pit after the 1000 years to show three things: 1) man still yet had some hidden sin, 2) Satan will never repent, 3) God's good pleasure.

God is loving because He enters His creation, something your god doesn't do and can't. Allah is just an idol anyway since the Bible says there are no gods before God, beside God or after God. God creates Hell for you because free will is not truly free if you don't have the choice to be eternally separated from Him. Islam, I agree, is snake oil.

Just as the OT taught us a perfect sacrifice is essential for atonement, Jesus must be the perfect sacrifice once-for-all. There can be no better sacrifice than God enter His creation through the womb of Mary, growing up as a child, feeling our heartaches and struggling with us, only to then be killed by those who rejected God's authority as people today are killed mercilessly. I hear there are even other cults besides Islam that claim Jesus didn't die on the cross and like all cults they don't need evidence for their claim either.

 

[جوري]

You don't even have to prove Jesus is God

You sure you do.. that is what you're selling.. and you're not doing a good pitch at the sale.. to be honest I'd not purchase from street vendors anyway.. if I weren't pressed for time and other interests I'd have more fun with you.. but keep yourself busy a while with this (click on the links):

Is the Bible that we have in our hands today unchanged? Or has it undergone extensive revisions and alterations? Truth is the first victim in the Christian apologetical literature. This is because if they tell the truth about the Church history and its role in formulating the Bible (or Bibles) as well as the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, belief in the Bible as the "Word" of God would take the beating and the Churches would go absolutely empty. Hence it is not be surprising to find an average Christian's knowledge about his own scriptures is pretty close to zero.
This page is to educate the Muslims about the Bible of the Christians, concerning mainly with its compilation and textual reliability. It is often seen that Christian missionaries dupe less-knowledgeable Muslims about the Bible by saying that the Qur'an confirms the Bible and hence Muslims should believe in the Bible. Muslims should remember that the Qur'an attests Torah, Zabur and Injil as revelations from God given to the Prophet. It does not attest whatever writers of the Old Testament or St. Paul in the New Testament wrote or said.
But what is the textual reliability of the so-called Torah, Zabur and Injil present in the modern Bibles? The aim of this page is to venture into this issue. If one can't establish the 'revealed' books' textual reliability, is there any point calling it as the Word of God?
Lastly, we have made sure that we use the references of Judeo-Christian scholars of repute not the apologetical literature for very obvious reasons.
The Canon Of The Bible

A detailed discussion about the various canons of the Bible drawn at various times by different Churches can be seen here.
​

The New Testament Manuscripts

Click here for New Testament Manuscripts
​

Was The Bible Same As We have In Our Hands Today?

Church Tradition and The Textual Integrity Of The Bible

1. Church Tradition and The Bible
   1. Protestant Church
   2. Roman Catholic Church
   3. Anglican Church
   4. Greek Orthodox Church
   5. Coptic Church
   6. Ethiopic Church
   7. Syriac Church
2. Church Tradition and Apostolic Fathers
   1. Clement Of Rome
   2. Ignatius Of Antioch
   3. The Didache
   4. Papias Of Heirapolis
   5. Barnabas
   6. Polycarp Of Smyrna
   7. Hermas Of Rome
   8. The So-Called Second Epistle Of Clement
3. Church Tradition and The Early Lists Of The Books Of The New Testament
4. Church Tradition and 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books
   1. The Didache
   2. Epistle Of Clement
   3. Epistle Of Barnabas
   4. Shepherd Of Hermas
5. Church Tradition and Manuscripts
6. Church Tradition and The Six 'Disputed' Books

Extracts From The Book How We Got Our Bible
​

The Bible and Its 'Inspiration'

Was Paul Inspired?

Church Tradition and 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books

1. The Didache
2. Epistle Of Clement
3. Epistle Of Barnabas
4. Shepherd Of Hermas

'Accuracy' Of The New Testament
​

Textual Reliability Of The Bible - Who Is Afraid Of Textual Criticism?

Criteria Used In Choosing Among Conflicting Readings In New Testament Witnesses

1. Introduction
2. The Criteria
3. Outline Of Criteria
   1. External Evidence
   2. Internal Evidence
4. Some Examples

Textual Reliability / Accuracy Of The New Testament

Sir David Dalrymple (Lord Hailes), The Patristic Citations Of The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers And The Search For Eleven Missing Verses Of The New Testament
Based on a narrative whose source is alleged to have been the renowned Scottish Judge Sir David Dalrymple (Lord Hailes), it is frequently asserted that the entire New Testament can be reconstructed from the citations of the Church Fathers of the first three centuries, with the exception of only eleven verses. Going back to the original documents, something which none of the authors have attempted to study, it is shown that the data in them clearly disproves this claim – repeated in numerous missionary and apologetical publications for a period of more than 165 years.

• Introduction
• Historical And Theological Antecedents
• An Anecdote
  • A Brief Chronology
  • Oral Source And Printed Transmission
• Dalrymple's Invitation: Some Preliminary Observations
  • MSS. 25396-399 ‘Interleaved Collation’
  • MSS. 25400-408 ‘Supplemental Collation’
  • MSS. 25409-410 ‘Loose Leaf Collation’
  • Results
  • Some Remarks
  • Lost In Transmission?
• Conclusions

Modern Approaches To New Testament Textual Criticism

1. Radical Eclecticism (G. D. Kilpatrick, J. K. Elliott)
2. Reasoned Eclecticism (B. M. Metzger, K. Aland)
3. Reasoned Conservatism (H. A. Sturz)
4. Radical Conservatism (Z. Hodges, A. Farstad)

Critical Text Of The New Testament: Methodology and Implications

1. Introduction
2. Formation Of A Critical Text: Methodology and Implications
3. Conclusion
4. Appendix: Other Articles Of Interest

The Multivalence Of The Term "Original Text" In New Testament Textual Criticism, E. Jay Epp, Harvard Theological Review, 1999, Volume 92, No. 3. pp. 245-281.

1. Introduction
2. The Use of the Term "Original Text" Past and Present and Its Multivalence
3. The Relation of an Elusive, Multivalent "Original Text" to the Concept of "Canon"
4. Conclusion

Who Is Afraid Of Textual Criticism?

1. Variant Readings In The Qur'an and In The Bible
   1. The Qur'an, Its Variant Readings and Islamic Scholarship
   2. The New Testament, Its Problems and The Critical Texts
2. Textual Criticism and The Reaction Of The Church
   1. J Mill
   2. R Bentley
   3. J J Wettstein
   4. B F Westcott and J A Hort

 

[MustafaMc]

I am not sure why we all fall into the trap of replying back to these fundies. They all come bearing the same agenda and none of them can articulate their message to save their dear life-- their very article of salvation is nothing but a convoluted conundrum. ..

I guess as long as they are permitted to post here on LI, some feel a duty to counter their dogma with Truth.

Christians are standing on sinking sand and yet they don't realize it. They pose questions such as the OP knowing full well that their salvation for all eternity stands upon a tenuous supposition that is poorly supported, if at all, by the gospels. Our salvation does not rely upon our 'works' as they claim, but rather on the mercy of Allah (swt). In direct contrast to the Christians, we worship Allah (swt) in the manner that He prescribed through His prophet, Muhammad (saaws). We stand upon the promises made in the Quran of forgiveness for those who believe and do good deeds.

 

[Woodrow]

Since those gnostic texts disagreed with the Biblical texts then Christians didn't follow those gnostic texts back then. Christians believe exactly what the original disciples taught in the first century as it is recorded in the Bible.

That the Bible reported the disciples scattered speaks of the authenticity of the Scriptures, but when they saw Jesus alive from the dead they changed from doubters to bold proclaimers. Jesus predicted to the disciples would deny Him temporarily out of lack of faithfulness. This is part of Christianity so Christianity never changed.

The Coptics do not agree with the Scriptures. Nothing in the Bible including Mark agree with their teachings. One of their heresies is that Jesus was not fully man. There are several others.

Paul, Peter, James and John so they were in complete agreement. Notice all of Paul's writings are included too. Peter, James and John agreed with Paul and spoke highly of him.

I am here talking about this because I don't want you to go to Hell, so I encourage you to realize you have no evidence for claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross. Can you be so humble as to accept that if you don't have evidence for something you shouldn't believe in it blindly? God would never ask you to.

So out of 12 Apostles and numerous disciples only 4 eye witness accounts were worthy of being kept, those of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke. The 4 that seem to be reiterations of the same thing the same of which happened to have been written in Greek by Aramaic speaking Jews. the same of which not even the best Christian theologians can agree upon who the actual authors were. The same books that coincidentally have a very strong resemblance to the Greek and Roman mythology of the time.

Give up your life of blasphemy and the spreading of falsehoods. Read even one short Surah of the Glorious Qur'an:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

 

[noselfwilling]

It took me 65 years to escape from the lies of Christianity and by the Blessings of Allaah(swt) discover Islam.

The day you wake up and discover you are living a man made religion that lowered Allaah(swt) to the level of humanity, you will see the misguidance brought about by Christianity. Not all christians need to be lost many Christians have awoken and found the truth of Islam even after 65 years of trying to bring Muslims to Christ(as). At least you are approaching the right path even though you have yet to discover Allaah(swt) is inviting you to give up your sinful teachings and return home to Islam and be given the gift of Allaah(swt)'s infinite mercy and forgiveness. You can not earn his forgiveness, no sacrifice can ever gain it for you. but Allaah(swt) gives it freely and with out conditions to those who repent of the evil blasphemy of worshiping a false god in His name.

You fell into the age old trap of salvation by works because with salvation by works is the possibility of losing salvation if you don't maintain your self-strength to be faithful. No man can save himself by works, lest any man should boast. All religions teach this except Christianity, because no man can save himself, for God is infinite greater than us and only He can satistfy the requirement for salvation through His only begotten Son whosoever believe on Him. Realize you were actually in reality never born-again because the Bible teaches those who were saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You have perished.

The day you realize you are living in a man made religion is the day you come closer to Christ to possibly be saved. Many Muslims come to Christ every day. They consider Islam evil, for example, what happened in Egypt recently killing 30 Christians and wounding 70 more as they were coming out of the Church. When Muhammad didn't have the upper hand in a country he was fairly peaceful, but as soon as he gained control, he was a murderous tyrant. Would Jesus do that?

You can keep calling the disciples liars when they said they had seen Jesus alive from thead dead, but realize people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. They truly believed it. but group hallucinations are impossible. Almost all scholars today on the resurrection claim agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

There is no grand conspiracy by the historian Tacitus or Josephus that Jesus died on the cross. He really died on the cross, put to death by Pontius Pilate.

You're a sinner, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, so unless God in the likeness of flesh atones for those sins, no man could be saved. Just like there is no evidence for the Greek gods there is no evidence for Allah. You must believe him blindly, whereas Christians have a God who proved Himself and relating to us personally. Praise the Lord!


God is relational, not an absentee landlord like in Islam. He becomes one of us so we could be like Him and have eternal life. Amen.

 

[noselfwilling]

Re: Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

...and how old is the oldest surviving text of the Bible? The Codex Sinaiticus dates from 350, in other words the 4th century.

We have at least 14 papyri from the 2nd century and read we have at least 27 verses in 12 books of the New Testament from the Dead Sea Scrolls carbon dated before 65 AD.

 

[Woodrow]

You fell into the age old trap of salvation by works because with salvation by works is the possibility of losing salvation if you don't maintain your self-strength to be faithful. No man can save himself by works, lest any man should boast. All religions teach this except Christianity, because no man can save himself, for God is infinite greater than us and only He can satistfy the requirement for salvation through His only begotten Son whosoever believe on Him. Realize you were actually in reality never born-again because the Bible teaches those who were saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You have perished.

The day you realize you are living in a man made religion is the day you come closer to Christ to possibly be saved. Many Muslims come to Christ every day. They consider Islam evil, for example, what happened in Egypt recently killing 30 Christians and wounding 70 more as they were coming out of the Church. When Muhammad didn't have the upper hand in a country he was fairly peaceful, but as soon as he gained control, he was a murderous tyrant. Would Jesus do that?

You can keep calling the disciples liars when they said they had seen Jesus alive from thead dead, but realize people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. They truly believed it. but group hallucinations are impossible. Almost all scholars today on the resurrection claim agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

There is no grand conspiracy by the historian Tacitus or Josephus that Jesus died on the cross. He really died on the cross, put to death by Pontius Pilate.

You're a sinner, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, so unless God in the likeness of flesh atones for those sins, no man could be saved. Just like there is no evidence for the Greek gods there is no evidence for Allah. You must believe him blindly, whereas Christians have a God who proved Himself and relating to us personally. Praise the Lord!


God is relational, not an absentee landlord like in Islam. He becomes one of us so we could be like Him and have eternal life. Amen.

The day I gave up Christianity and my years of Missionary work did I finally find the true path to salvation. I have to pay a horrible price with my feelings of guilt over those I led to hellfire by converting them to Christianity. I once believed as you now do. I hope you escape before you suffer the guilt and pains of leading the innocent into the trap of Christianity.

 

[noselfwilling]

So out of 12 Apostles and numerous disciples only 4 eye witness accounts were worthy of being kept, those of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke. The 4 that seem to be reiterations of the same thing the same of which happened to have been written in Greek by Aramaic speaking Jews. the same of which not even the best Christian theologians can agree upon who the actual authors were. The same books that coincidentally have a very strong resemblance to the Greek and Roman mythology of the time.

Give up your life of blasphemy and the spreading of falsehoods. Read even one short Surah of the Glorious Qur'an:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

I am farily certain not all the disciples could read and write, and the Bible is a fairly big book already. 4 gospel accounts is more than enough. One emphasizes Jesus as king, another as servant, another as man and another as God. Most scholars can't think of anyone other than Matthew, Luke, Mark and John to write these texts. In fact, many clues regarding their employment indcating their writing style. For example Matthew writes regally. He was a tax collector, an accountant. Mark was simple and had a bout with Paul over Mark's fickleness. Luke was a very careful writer. He was a doctor. He also wrote Acts. And Jesus said John was the disciple whom He loved most. John emphasized Jesus' deity and love. There is no Greek mythology of someone walking among us, atoning for sins, who called Himself God and resurrected and gave the Holy Spirit to indwell believers. Truly unique.

At best Allah is just an idol. At worst, he is Satan.

Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture" (John 10.9).

You can't enter into another man unless that person is also fully God. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Praise the Lord!

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

We have at least 14 papyri from the 2nd century and read we have at least 27 verses in 12 books of the New Testament from the Dead Sea Scrolls carbon dated before 65 AD.

You do know the dead sea scrolls were written by Essenes, not Christians and do support Islam more than they support Christianity. You have no books from the early sources you only have copies of books which the Vatican Library will allow you access to.

 

[noselfwilling]

The day I gave up Christianity and my years of Missionary work did I finally find the true path to salvation. I have to pay a horrible price with my feelings of guilt over those I led to hellfire by converting them to Christianity. I once believed as you now do. I hope you escape before you suffer the guilt and pains of leading the innocent into the trap of Christianity.

Realize you were never actually born-again because the Bible teaches those who are saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). We whom are saved entered into a relationship with God promises to keep us. That gives us confidence and assuredness. You don't have this in your faith because it is a salvation by works to keep yourself allegedly saved.

You were a fake or nominal Christian, not real so you never really left Christianity to begin with because you never were a Christian. I once believed as you do now that salvation was not through Jesus, but by the grace of God, His mercy and love came over me. God says if you search Him out with all your heart and soul you shall surely find Him. I can never leave my life in Christ, but you can yet one day give your life to Christ because the Bible says no man has committed blaspheming of the Holy Spirit while Jesus is not on earth. Now that is gracious God!

God loves you. He would never ask you to believe in something some man in a cave all by himself said without any evidence after he rejected Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Don't give into Satan. Revisionist story telling will simply not due six centuries later.

God provides real proof. 40 authors over 1500 years in 66 books in complete agreement. He shows that most scholars agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings for which there is no naturalistic explanation. Jesus really died on the cross which we have tonnes of evidence for, but no evidence otherwise or for your god just like we have no evidence for the Greek gods. They are just idols.

It is evil of you to ask people to believe blindly in your cult when you have no evidence and to lie about Jesus.

 

[noselfwilling]

Re: Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

You do know the dead sea scrolls were written by Essenes, not Christians and do support Islam more than they support Christianity. You have no books from the early sources you only have copies of books which the Vatican Library will allow you access to.

The Essenes were a Jewish cult. The Jews agree more with Islam than Christianity since you both reject Christ. The point is the Scriptures that were circulating shows at least 12 books of the New Testament were circulating before 65 AD.

All the New Testament is from the original sources. The Qu'ran was changed so many times it would make your head spin, even on major doctrinal points, but none of the major doctrinal points in the Bible have been changed. There is nothing in antiquity with surviving documents so closely to their events as is the case for the Bible.

More copies the better to preserve integretity and compare.

 

[Tyrion]

Re: Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

The Essenes were a Jewish cult. The Jews agree more with Islam than Christianity since you both reject Christ. The point is the Scriptures that were circulating shows at least 12 books of the New Testament were circulating before 65 AD.

All the New Testament is from the original sources. The Qu'ran was changed so many times it would make your head spin, even on major doctrinal points, but none of the major doctrinal points in the Bible have been changed. There is nothing in antiquity with surviving documents so closely to their events as is the case for the Bible.

More copies the better to preserve integretity and compare.

Lol, dude... Learn a bit about the religion before you come here and try to convert people. You're just making yourself look like a fool...

Oh, and you really shouldn't expect us to sit back and let you spew this nonsense... Most Muslims are fairly familiar with Christianity and it's texts, as well as being familiar with their own history and texts, so they can very easily take apart whatever you have to say... You, however, don't seem to have even a basic knowledge of Islam, so... Good luck.

 

[noselfwilling]

You sure you do.. that is what you're selling.. and you're not doing a good pitch at the sale.. to be honest I'd not purchase from street vendors anyway.. if I weren't pressed for time and other interests I'd have more fun with you..

No we don't have to prove Jesus was resurrected to prove Islam is false. All we need to do to prove Islam is false is that Jesus died on the cross because Islam says he didn't. I can sell you on Christ later, but right it is enough to prove Islam is false because all the evidence we have is for Jesus dying on the cross, and no evedience to the contrary, so don't believe some guy in a cave all by himself six centuries later. God would never ask you to believe blindly like that out of his hostility because he rejected Jesus for his salvation.

Is the Bible that we have in our hands today unchanged? Or has it undergone extensive revisions and alterations? Truth is the first victim in the Christian apologetical literature. This is because if they tell the truth about the Church history and its role in formulating the Bible (or Bibles) as well as the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, belief in the Bible as the "Word" of God would take the beating and the Churches would go absolutely empty. Hence it is not be surprising to find an average Christian's knowledge about his own scriptures is pretty close to zero.

Since all the books of the New Testament were completed before 65 AD except for John in 95 AD, who cares about all these other books or even what the Church compiled. It makes no difference because the early texts were already establed as primary sources.

 

[noselfwilling]

Re: Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

Lol, dude... Learn a bit about the religion before you come here and try to convert people. You're just making yourself look like a fool...

Oh, and you really shouldn't expect us to sit back and let you spew this nonsense... Most Muslims are fairly familiar with Christianity and it's texts, as well as being familiar with their own history and texts, so they can very easily take apart whatever you have to say... You, however, don't seem to have even a basic knowledge of Islam, so... Good luck.

I am a fool for Christ. I am a fool for evidence. Since there is no evidence in the first two centuries that Jesus didn't die on the cross but lots of evidence for his cruicifixion, realize you are a living lie.

It is sad to hear those who claim they are familiar with the text, and thus the evidence, yet still remain unsaved, bound for hell for calling the disciples deceived and Jesus a liar when he said countless times in various ways He was God and would prove it by His resurrection.

The disciples said they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, for which you can find a no naturalistic explanation. This is God's proof of Himself.

There is really only one thing you need to know about Islam to know it is wrong. If it says Jesus didn't die on the cross you know Muhammad was a liar or demonically possessed.

 

[Woodrow]

Realize you were never actually born-again because the Bible teaches those who are saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). We whom are saved entered into a relationship with God promises to keep us. That gives us confidence and assuredness. You don't have this in your faith because it is a salvation by works to keep yourself allegedly saved.

Islam does not teach that we can be saved by our works. no man can ever earn his way into heaven nor offer any sacrifice worthy of getting into heaven. We can only enter Jannah through the Mercy and forgiveness of Allaah(swt) Where on earth did you get the idea we believe we gain heaven through our works?

You were a fake or nominal Christian, not real so you never really left Christianity to begin with because you never were a Christian. I once believed as you do now that salvation was not through Jesus, but by the grace of God, His mercy and love came over me. God says if you search Him out with all your heart and soul you shall surely find Him. I can never leave my life in Christ, but you can yet one day give your life to Christ because the Bible says no man has committed blaspheming of the Holy Spirit while Jesus is not on earth. Now that is gracious God!

Believe as you wish.

God loves you. He would never ask you to believe in something some man in a cave all by himself said without any evidence after he rejected Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Don't give into Satan. Revisionist story telling will simply not due six centuries later.

Of course Allaah(swt) loves me, that is why he led me to Islam

God provides real proof. 40 authors over 1500 years in 66 books in complete agreement. He shows that most scholars agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings for which there is no naturalistic explanation. Jesus really died on the cross which we have tonnes of evidence for, but no evidence otherwise or for your god just like we have no evidence for the Greek gods. They are just idols.

It is evil of you to ask people to believe blindly in your cult when you have no evidence and to lie about Jesus.

We love Jesus(as) deeply. He is one of the most beloved of Prophets(PBUH). We would never lie about him. Do you actually know what a cult is? And do you know it is highly impolite to insult your host?

One word of advice. It is highly offensive to come on an Islamic forum and say things such as idols of Islam, calling Islam a cult etc. You are a guest here and you will be treated with kindness and as a guest. but one more insult and your account here will be closed along with your ISP address blocked, and all of your posts deleted.

Debating, discussing is fine, but we will not allow any insulting of our beliefs.

 

[جوري]

Re: Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

before you come here and try to convert people

Is that what he's doing.. bwahahhaa.. I thought he was having a bout of diarrhea and came to the nearest station to empty...

Jesus loves ya..

 

[noselfwilling]

If you can lose salvation then salvation is by works. A cult is a group that believe something without evidence. Hence, Islam is a cult, because it believes didn't die on the cross without any evidence.