How does Allah forgive sins?

[keiv]

The penalty for sin is death. God has destroyed death by what Jesus did on the cross, as I have explained. God became a perfect man and willingly sacrificed Himself(not His divinity) because it was the Father's will that Jesus do this in order to destroy death through Jesus' resurrection(only God can resurrect the dead). This is God's will that all might come to know Him through belief in Jesus Christ.

Too complicated. Why not just take the Islam approach:

Seek forgiveness from Allah, then he will grant it to you

No son, no holy spirit, no resurrection, no cross, no destruction of death (whatever that means), etc...

 

[M.I.A.]

Jesus AS also raised the dead and healed the sick.. By way of Allah swt [God]


Although I have no idea of context.


...the holy spirit is a thing but again, you would be hard pressed to find details.

Quran has references to it although it is not an Islamic way to invoke such things.

 

[TruthFollower]

Among the 99 names of Allah, Al-Ghaffar ("The Forgiving") is one of them. That alone should give answer to Muslims and non Muslims who question Allah's forgiveness.

The whole concept of God becoming part of his creation and then letting his creation kill him so his creation will have "eternal life" just seems very... oh what's the word... oh yea, illogical

[FONT=Helvetica Light, Helvetica, Droid Sans, Arial, Arial Unicode MS, sans-serif]YHWH is eternal life, no beginning or end. The life He creates will live on forever, the life He destroys, due to sin, will not. The reality of life we are all currently experiencing is separation from God due to sin. Our current experiences of life are but a shadow of what God has in store for those He loves. If we are born into sin, how are we to know we are sinners in need of a savior? Only if God intervenes through His prophets and sends the message that a savior has come to save us from our sins and give us eternal life. That savior is Jesus. We would be blinded to God's glory and remain dead in our sins if He hadn't intervened on our behalf through Jesus Christ so that we might come to know His true nature of love, mercy and forgiveness and eternal life.

[/FONT]I can't seem to determine if Allah hates sin and death or if he's okay with allowing sin to continue on forever and allowing death to continue on forever.

 

[TruthFollower]

Too complicated. Why not just take the Islam approach:

Seek forgiveness from Allah, then he will grant it to you

Is it Allah's desire for me to be sinless? Does he expect me to become sinless on my own or is he going to intervene and make it a reality? If he expects me to become sinless on my own, I will fail. If he's going to intervene, how will he do this or has he done it already?

You see, I put my complete trust in Jesus and know that I am forgiven by the grace of God because God has explained how my sins are forgiven and how death will not prevail over eternal life.

 

[M.I.A.]

I can't seem to determine if Allah hates sin and death or if he's okay with allowing sin to continue on forever and allowing death to continue on forever.

...ok I recon that about wraps things up, welcome to life..

It would be sooo much worse if you actually cared for them.

 

[TruthFollower]

I can't seem to determine if Allah hates sin and death or if he's okay with allowing sin to continue on forever and allowing death to continue on forever.

...ok I recon that about wraps things up, welcome to life..

It would be sooo much worse if you actualy cared for them

I don't follow. Cared for what exactly? Sin and death? I believe there is an eternal reality we can all experience where there is no sin and death, only life eternal. The reality we currently find ourselves in does not fit that description because we are separated from God, due to sin. God has and is and will reconcile this separation and restore His creation to sinless perfection. God can do this, no? The God I worship has already made this possible through Jesus Christ and I will proclaim this message until I die and am reunited with God in eternal life. The life I live on this earth is to glorify God for who He is and what He has done.

Again, cared for what exactly?

 

[M.I.A.]

Me neither, I think.. That a language barrier separates us.

If you deal in concepts then there is a large common ground to be found between faiths.

The divisions we use to justify the differences are created by time.

How can you say one is better than the other when they only claimed to represent those that had gone before?

The God I worship has already made this possible through Jesus Christ and I will proclaim this message until I die and am reunited with God in eternal life. The life I live on this earth is to glorify God for who He is and what He has done.

That's what we say on paper.. Don't know what we are like when we actually move our mouths or use our hands and apply ourselves.

Where we will be lead to which socio/economic climate and whos company we will keep and the conversations we will have.

...and who will be listening.

I'm not really ready for dismissing all those who do not fit my ideal.

It's a learning experience.

Cared for what exactly is the question.

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists.

 

[Insaanah]

If God chooses to become a man and die

If a god dies, that god is not God. God is eternal, and never dies. God never has a body, never squeezes himself into a body be it one that might die. He only does things which befit His Majesty. He cannot lie, steal, cheat, nor inhabit in human or animal bodies, nor perform lowly human functions such as begetting.

If God chooses to become a man and die in this way in order to save humanity, is it not the greatest possible love?

No. It is the greatest possible, cruelty, injustice, and limitation to power, falsely ascribed to God.

Let us imagine, a university full of medical students. Some are good, some not so good. They have an exam coming up. One of the students says that someone has said if we get any answers wrong, they'll take all our wrong answers for us. So the students are full of joy, knowing that they'll pass, even if they don't reach the mark. Think about this. Islam repeatedly calls people to reason, to ponder, to reflect.... even if that may not be comfortable for you, and even if it goes against everything you've ever believed. It invites you to re-assess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. Are they sound? Do they resonate with the heart and mind, and logic.

Would any sane person accept, that students who got 80% of the answers wrong, should pass and become doctors, risking the public's lives? Would any sane person say that it was the ultimate act of love by the one that took the marks or sent he person to take the wrong marks? No. they would say its cheating, injustice, fraud. On the one hand, you say you want to glorify God, yet on the other hand, you believe in these convoluted notions...

God can only create perfection, which is why the first sin by created beings caused evil which lead to man's separation from God.

No. No reason for this to happen. Man has never been "separated" from God. That's what the Bible writers would have you believe. It is a common belief and misconception that God cannot forgive His creatures directly, and that mankind is ****ed. This makes people despair of the mercy of God. Once they become convinced that they are forever doomed, that's when the need for a saviour comes in.

Only God can restore mankind back to Himself, but a price needs to be paid to accomplish the restoration or else forgiving sin is pointless and costs God nothing.

As I said, we don't believe in any such notion of separation.

but a price needs to be paid to accomplish the restoration or else forgiving sin is pointless and costs God nothing.

Please think about what you're saying. So you're not willing to accept forgiveness from God if it cost Him nothing. On the one hand, you say you want to glorify God, yet on the other hand, you reduce Him to the level of a stingy human being who gave you a present that cost Him nothing if He forgives you freely of His will. It seems you do not attach value to His forgiveness because there was no cost. I've never heard those thoughts before. It is like viewing Allah as a human being that gave you a present that cost nothing, and you view that as being stingy and not generous. We seek Allah's refuge from that. He is the Infinitely Rich, and His gifts to us, are matchless and priceless. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, never ending forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it.

Please please think. A god who has to give up something, lose something, sacrifice something, incur a cost, is not a God. All of these are lowly human limitations that cannot be ascribed to God, glorified and exalted be He.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

You see you keep talking about the problem of sin. The problem in Christianity, actually starts with the concept of the trinity, and snowballs from there. 3 = 1 or 1 =3 depending on who you ask, while some say its a mystery. Then you have this eternal ****ation, for which you need a saviour, God has to beget a son, and have him killed etc etc. We have no such problem in Islam. The core concepts of our faith were written down from the word go, as they were revealed by God, not the words of men written 50-60 years and more after Christ (peace be on him) and the core beliefs of the faith finalised at councils 300 years later, unrecogniable from Jesus (peace be on him actually preached).

Correct, the divinity of Jesus never died, but the man did and was resurrected.

As I have explained we do not believe Jesus was God, son of God, half man half God, nor man and God at the same time. He was a man.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God."

If the word was with God and the word was God, that makes two Gods. God with God.

With all due respect, none of your Biblical quotes above, have Jesus unequivocally saying, I am God. How can it be, that the core fundamental of your faith, is not stated clearly anywhere? If we take people who believe in God, but have never heard of Christianity or Islam, and show them John 1:1, what will they understand from it? Nothing. They might guess that there are two Gods. Now if we show them the clear statements of the Qur'an:

Say, Allah is One (112:1)
He neither begets, nor is begotten (112:3)
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." (5:72, part)

there is no doubt as to the clarity of belief.

Please also note, that the promotion of other faiths, is not allowed on the forum , as per the forum rules. The forum exists to promote the Islamic faith only.

I would take this opportunity, to urge you, to warmly invite you, to really think about what you believe in, however dearly you hold it, however long you've held it for, and to open your heart and mind to Islam. As Muslims, we love, believe in and honour and respect Jesus (peace be on him), and many ex-Christians who've embraced Islam, say they feel closer to Jesus and his true teachings than when they were Christian.

Peace.

 

[MidnightRose]

...but since God is eternally good, He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior. This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.

Greetings TruthFollower,

I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I plan on leaving my earthly life in this way, not returning to God in, as you have mentioned, perfect goodness.

Based on the above, I can't have eternal life with God.

It seems that my sin of infidelity isn't forgiven. Why have I been excluded from forgiveness and the subsequent eternal life with the, as you mention, perfect God?

As I said, I do not and :ia: will never believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

 

[TruthFollower]

If a god dies, that god is not God. God is eternal, and never dies. God never has a body, never squeezes himself into a body be it one that might die. He only does things which befit His Majesty. He cannot lie, steal, cheat, nor inhabit in human or animal bodies, nor perform lowly human functions such as begetting.

Right, God has never died, but by His Holy Spirit He begot a Son and sacrificed Him for all humanity's sin. This Son also willingly sacrificed Himself. This is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that has and is and will accomplish God's perfect will for all creation.

Allah created perfect beings with free will, did he not? When the first being decided to sin, what happened? Allah forgave them, right? Yet sin continues, therefore Allah continues to forgive. When does sin end according to Islam? In other words, when will Allah intervene and end sin forever? Or is he okay with letting it continue forever? This is a very logical question and I have not received a straight answer yet.

Let us imagine, a university full of medical students. Some are good, some not so good. They have an exam coming up. One of the students says that someone has said if we get any answers wrong, they'll take all our wrong answers for us. So the students are full of joy, knowing that they'll pass, even if they don't reach the mark. Think about this. Islam repeatedly calls people to reason, to ponder, to reflect.... even if that may not be comfortable for you, and even if it goes against everything you've ever believed. It invites you to re-assess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. Are they sound? Do they resonate with the heart and mind, and logic.

Would any sane person accept, that students who got 80% of the answers wrong, should pass and become doctors, risking the public's lives? Would any sane person say that it was the ultimate act of love by the one that took the marks or sent he person to take the wrong marks? No. they would say its cheating, injustice, fraud. On the one hand, you say you want to glorify God, yet on the other hand, you believe in these convoluted notions...

Christians believe we were all born with the wrong answers. Meaning we are all born sinners, due to Adam and Eve. Only God has the right answers, all right answers come from Him. Only God is eternally perfect and only God can make a created being who has sinned against Him, eternally perfect again. All sin is ultimately against God, so if we're all born sinners then God must intervene in a real way in order to forgive us from our sin and destroy death that is caused by sin.

Do Muslims believe they will live eternally with Allah after they die?

Please think about what you're saying. So you're not willing to accept forgiveness from God if it cost Him nothing. On the one hand, you say you want to glorify God, yet on the other hand, you reduce Him to the level of a stingy human being who gave you a present that cost Him nothing if He forgives you freely of His will. It seems you do not attach value to His forgiveness because there was no cost. I've never heard those thoughts before. It is like viewing Allah as a human being that gave you a present that cost nothing, and you view that as being stingy and not generous. We seek Allah's refuge from that. He is the Infinitely Rich, and His gifts to us, are matchless and priceless. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, never ending forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it.

Please please think. A god who has to give up something, lose something, sacrifice something, incur a cost, is not a God. All of these are lowly human limitations that cannot be ascribed to God, glorified and exalted be He.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

You see you keep talking about the problem of sin. The problem in Christianity, actually starts with the concept of the trinity, and snowballs from there. 3 = 1 or 1 =3 depending on who you ask, while some say its a mystery. Then you have this eternal ****ation, for which you need a saviour, God has to beget a son, and have him killed etc etc. We have no such problem in Islam. The core concepts of our faith were written down from the word go, as they were revealed by God, not the words of men written 50-60 years and more after Christ (peace be on him) and the core beliefs of the faith finalised at councils 300 years later, unrecogniable from Jesus (peace be on him actually preached).

Did Allah love forgiving sin before anyone sinned against him? Or did it take someone to sin against him for him to start loving to forgive sin?

As I have explained we do not believe Jesus was God, son of God, half man half God, nor man and God at the same time. He was a man.

I agree, Jesus was a man, but He had no human father, His father was God Himself conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is how God connects to humanity.

How does Allah interact with people except by his spirit? Allah is spirit, right? Allah's true nature is not known to us except through his spirit. Or do Muslims not believe that?

If the word was with God and the word was God, that makes two Gods. God with God.

With all due respect, none of your Biblical quotes above, have Jesus unequivocally saying, I am God. How can it be, that the core fundamental of your faith, is not stated clearly anywhere? If we take people who believe in God, but have never heard of Christianity or Islam, and show them John 1:1, what will they understand from it? Nothing. They might guess that there are two Gods. Now if we show them the clear statements of the Qur'an:

Say, Allah is One (112:1)
He neither begets, nor is begotten (112:3)
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." (5:72, part)

there is no doubt as to the clarity of belief.

Please also note, that the promotion of other faiths, is not allowed on the forum , as per the forum rules. The forum exists to promote the Islamic faith only.

I would take this opportunity, to urge you, to warmly invite you, to really think about what you believe in, however dearly you hold it, however long you've held it for, and to open your heart and mind to Islam. As Muslims, we love, believe in and honour and respect Jesus (peace be on him), and many ex-Christians who've embraced Islam, say they feel closer to Jesus and his true teachings than when they were Christian.

Peace.

I believe God is working in both the lives of Christians and Muslims, but I do not agree with many of the teachings of Islam, particularly the teachings that promote the killing of infidels. Why would Allah rely on man to kill those who don't believe in him, this reliance on man to do the killing, limits the power of Allah. Allah should be able to give and take life as He pleases without relying on man to do this. I for one would never kill anyone for not believing Christianity to be true because I trust God will be the righteous judge of when to give and take life.

 

[TruthFollower]

Greetings TruthFollower,

I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I plan on leaving my earthly life in this way, not returning to God in, as you have mentioned, perfect goodness.

Based on the above, I can't have eternal life with God.

It seems that my sin of infidelity isn't forgiven. Why have I been excluded from forgiveness and the subsequent eternal life with the, as you mention, perfect God?

As I said, I do not and :ia: will never believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

This conclusion you have come to is your own choosing. I have no right to threaten your life in order to coerce you to believe in Jesus. This is exactly why God has given us free will so that we may freely choose to follow Him or not. When I die, it will be because God has taken my life because He is pleased with me or displeased with me. God is eternal life, no beginning and no end, so when we die we will meet him and be judged. There is no escaping God.

 

[MidnightRose]

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
...but since God is eternally good, He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior. This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.

Originally Posted by najimuddin
Greetings TruthFollower,

I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I plan on leaving my earthly life in this way, not returning to God in, as you have mentioned, perfect goodness.

Based on the above, I can't have eternal life with God.

It seems that my sin of infidelity isn't forgiven. Why have I been excluded from forgiveness and the subsequent eternal life with the, as you mention, perfect God?

As I said, I do not and will never believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

This conclusion you have come to is your own choosing. I have no right to threaten your life in order to coerce you to believe in Jesus. This is exactly why God has given us free will so that we may freely choose to follow Him or not. When I die, it will be because God has taken my life because He is pleased with me or displeased with me. God is eternal life, no beginning and no end, so when we die we will meet him and be judged. There is no escaping God.

If I can continue to sin, and you say I will be judged, this perfect God that sacrificed Jesus Christ didn't destroy sin. According to your highlighted statements above, I'll be punished for my disobedience.

 

[M.I.A.]

Right, God has never died, but by His Holy Spirit He begot a Son and sacrificed Him for all humanity's sin. This Son also willingly sacrificed Himself. This is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that has and is and will accomplish God's perfect will for all creation.

Allah created perfect beings with free will, did he not? When the first being decided to sin, what happened? Allah forgave them, right? Yet sin continues, therefore Allah continues to forgive. When does sin end according to Islam? In other words, when will Allah intervene and end sin forever? Or is he okay with letting it continue forever? This is a very logical question and I have not received a straight answer yet.




Christians believe we were all born with the wrong answers. Meaning we are all born sinners, due to Adam and Eve. Only God has the right answers, all right answers come from Him. Only God is eternally perfect and only God can make a created being who has sinned against Him, eternally perfect again. All sin is ultimately against God, so if we're all born sinners then God must intervene in a real way in order to forgive us from our sin and destroy death that is caused by sin.

Do Muslims believe they will live eternally with Allah after they die?



Did Allah love forgiving sin before anyone sinned against him? Or did it take someone to sin against him for him to start loving to forgive sin?



I agree, Jesus was a man, but He had no human father, His father was God Himself conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is how God connects to humanity.

How does Allah interact with people except by his spirit? Allah is spirit, right? Allah's true nature is not known to us except through his spirit. Or do Muslims not believe that?



I believe God is working in both the lives of Christians and Muslims, but I do not agree with many of the teachings of Islam, particularly the teachings that promote the killing of infidels. Why would Allah rely on man to kill those who don't believe in him, this reliance on man to do the killing, limits the power of Allah. Allah should be able to give and take life as He pleases without relying on man to do this. I for one would never kill anyone for not believing Christianity to be true because I trust God will be the righteous judge of when to give and take life.

Not sure what to make of the last paragraph, you elect a president. His domestic policy is for the good of the people and promotes a moral code.

..as the country or empire expands, foreign policy is not always in a similar vein.

Although it hopes to achieve a society similar to its own..beliefs.

The concept remains even without mentioning god.

But is the victor always just?

Only sinners die? ...or was it not literal?

...David vs Goliath, one must already have had a reputation for war.

 

[TruthFollower]

If I can continue to sin, and you say I will be judged, this perfect God that sacrificed Jesus Christ didn't destroy sin. According to your highlighted statements above, I'll be punished for my disobedience.

If you knowingly continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of salvation, you will be judged even more harshly than someone who does not know that what they do is sin. This is evidence of God's Holy Spirit at work in us, He continually convicts us of our sin and we repent and are refined to the image of Jesus Christ who was and is perfect. This is called sanctification, the process where we submit ourselves fully to God's Holy Spirit and He makes us into a new creation. God draws us to Himself by His Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[M.I.A.]

Keep sinning and keep winning?

...while on the other hand, no alcohol allowed..

Not a spirits joke.

...sorry, couldn't help myself..

*that's what they said*

....sorry seriously, I'm calling it a night.

A lot of people don't talk for themselves sometimes.

...il get me coat.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out?


Any claim to the spirit is rather patronising, Allah swt raises and lowers as he wills.

..and hopefully they will delete my account in the end

 

[MidnightRose]

If you knowingly continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of salvation, you will be judged even more harshly than someone who does not know that what they do is sin. This is evidence of God's Holy Spirit at work in us, He continually convicts us of our sin and we repent and are refined to the image of Jesus Christ who was and is perfect. This is called sanctification, the process where we submit ourselves fully to God's Holy Spirit and He makes us into a new creation. God draws us to Himself by His Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

May the Lord guide us all. Ameen.

 

[TruthFollower]

Keep sinning and keep winning?

...while on the other hand, no alcohol allowed..

Not a spirits joke.

...sorry, couldn't help myself..

*that's what they said*

....sorry seriously, I'm calling it a night.

A lot of people don't talk for themselves sometimes.

...il get me coat.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out?


Any claim to the spirit is rather patronising, Allah swt raises and lowers as he wills.

..and hopefully they will delete my account in the end

Thanks for your time

 

[TruthFollower]

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

May the Lord guide us all. Ameen.

Thank you for your time. Yes, may the Lord guide us in spirit and in truth.

 

[Insaanah]

Right, God has never died, but by His Holy Spirit He begot a Son and sacrificed Him for all humanity's sin. This Son also willingly sacrificed Himself. This is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that has and is and will accomplish God's perfect will for all creation.

As I have said, any being that has to incur a cost, incur a loss, give up something, sacrifice something, is not a god. God the Almighty, Glorified and Exalted be He, is free from such lowly human limitations. We believe in God the God, not God the father, God the son nor God the holy spirit.

Allah created perfect beings with free will, did he not? When the first being decided to sin, what happened? Allah forgave them, right? Yet sin continues, therefore Allah continues to forgive.

Correct. As long as we ask sincerely. Sometimes Allah will forgive without asking. He forgives whom He wishes.

When does sin end according to Islam?

This ties in with what we've said about humans having free will. Free will means we have the freedom to choose to do good deeds, or bad deeds, as long as we live. Each choice we make, each deed we do, has a consequence. Good deeds incur reward, bad deeds incur sin. We can only do deeds as long as we are alive, until we die. So, for each individual, the answer is death, and for the world as a whole, upto the Day of Judgement. I think I've already mentioned this in a previous post in this thread.

In other words, when will Allah intervene and end sin forever? Or is he okay with letting it continue forever? This is a very logical question and I have not received a straight answer yet.

Apologies if you think I haven't answered this. I'll try and be more clearer here.

We believe, as I've said before, this life is a test. We can do good, or bad, incur sin or rewards, and will be judged on that on judgement day.

Lets go back to our students sitting an exam. What if some of them, said, I am not going to sit the exam, until the examiner guarantees me that I'll pass. The examiner guarantees a pass, if they try their best, even if they fall short of the pass mark. Is that fair or correct? No.

Now let's imagine the exam is in progress. Some students are getting the answers wrong, and the examiner knows they are. Should he stop the exam, and intervene, so that nobody writes wrong answers? No. This is completely wrong and illogical.

If people have free will, can do good or bad, then God has no reason to try to stop the consequences of that. That beats the purpose of free will. Beats the purpose of the test. God is not going to intervene to stop bad deeds or sin.

Christians believe we were all born with the wrong answers. Meaning we are all born sinners, due to Adam and Eve.

That is your belief then. We believe humans are created with the capacity to do good, and also bad, and we are given guidance and instruction to do good and avoid bad, as part of our test.

Only God is eternally perfect

But if you assert that He has to incur a loss, incur a cost, give up something, sacrifice something, then that means He's not perfect. We, as Muslims, believe in a perfect God, who has no need to, and does not, nor ever did, beget, sacrifice, or dwell in human or animal bodies.

only God can make a created being who has sinned against Him, eternally perfect again.

As I've said, we don't need to be perfect, but to try our very best in obeying God and His final messenger. As I've explained this all in previous posts, I won't restate it here, but ask that you read those again.

All sin is ultimately against God

The greatest of which is to associate others (such as Jesus , peace be on him) in God's Exclusive Divinity.

if we're all born sinners then God must intervene in a real way in order to forgive us from our sin and destroy death that is caused by sin.

We don't believe that death is caused by sin. This life is our test. We are born, and we die, which is our lifespan - birth and death is not a consequence of sin, but the beginning and end of this earthly life.

Blessed is He in whose hand is dominion, and He is over all things competent - [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving..(67:1-2)

Do Muslims believe they will live eternally with Allah after they die?

If we reach paradise, then yes, God willing.

Did Allah love forgiving sin before anyone sinned against him? Or did it take someone to sin against him for him to start loving to forgive sin?

This is a bit like those questions people ask about matters of the unknown, that we don't delve into and have no relevance to us.

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira (May Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
Men will continue to question one another till this is propounded: Allah created all things but who created Allah? He who found himself confronted with such a situation should say: I affirm my faith in Allah.
(Sahih Muslim 134a)

How does Allah interact with people except by his spirit? Allah is spirit, right? Allah's true nature is not known to us except through his spirit. Or do Muslims not believe that?

We do not say Allah is made of any material, Glorified and Exalted be He. The answer again, is as directly above.

I believe God is working in both the lives of Christians and Muslims, but I do not agree with many of the teachings of Islam, particularly the teachings that promote the killing of infidels. Why would Allah rely on man to kill those who don't believe in him, this reliance on man to do the killing, limits the power of Allah. Allah should be able to give and take life as He pleases without relying on man to do this. I for one would never kill anyone for not believing Christianity to be true because I trust God will be the righteous judge of when to give and take life.

If that was an Islamic teaching, there would be no non-Muslims in this world!

Peace.

 

[TruthFollower]

This ties in with what we've said about humans having free will. Free will means we have the freedom to choose to do good deeds, or bad deeds, as long as we live. Each choice we make, each deed we do, has a consequence. Good deeds incur reward, bad deeds incur sin. We can only do deeds as long as we are alive, until we die. So, for each individual, the answer is death, and for the world as a whole, upto the Day of Judgement. I think I've already mentioned this in a previous post in this thread.

What brings about the Day of Judgement?

Christians believe there will be an abomination that causes desolation in the latter days which will begin the end time Great Tribulation. This Great Tribulation is God's judgment on all the ungodly of the earth, some will come out saved, but most will suffer God's wrath for their ungodliness and after this Great Tribulation, Jesus will come back and establish peace for a 1000yrs, the way it was always meant to be and from there eternal life for all those that God loves.

Is there a trigger that causes the end time Day of Judgement from Allah? If there is, why doesn't Allah love to forgive this trigger that causes the Day of Judgement? Does he decide to stop loving to forgive sin and begin hating sin? This is what I don't understand about Allah, he loves to forgive sin therefore he has no reason to stop people from sinning because he loves to forgive them, forever. By this logic, there will never be an end time Day of Judgement, if anything, humanity will become perfect in Allah's view because everyone will being doing good deeds and not bad deeds, therefore he will no longer need to forgive anyone, but this might make him mad because he loves to forgive sin. Do you see why I'm confused?

Also, it's important to point out that God of the Bible loves believers and unbelievers, but He hates sin and wants to destroy sin in our life and spare us from His wrath against sin and evil. He has done this through Jesus Christ.

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8

Allah doesn't seem to mind sin, he actually loves to forgive it, but he does not love the unbelievers.

QUR’AN 3:31-32—SAY [O MUHAMMAD]: IF YOU LOVE ALLAH, THEN FOLLOW ME, ALLAH WILL LOVE YOU AND FORGIVE YOU YOUR FAULTS, AND ALLAH IS FORGIVING, MERCIFUL. SAY: OBEY ALLAH AND THE APOSTLE; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT LOVE THE UNBELIEVERS.

This also implies that Allah is more interested in making unbelievers into muslims, rather than freeing them from their sin, but I understand you don't believe we need freed from our sin.

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”, He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell. God’s salvation is a free gift that only needs to be received to become active. Your sins in exchange for His righteousness and a full and free eternal pardon.

Lets go back to our students sitting an exam. What if some of them, said, I am not going to sit the exam, until the examiner guarantees me that I'll pass. The examiner guarantees a pass, if they try their best, even if they fall short of the pass mark. Is that fair or correct? No.

Now let's imagine the exam is in progress. Some students are getting the answers wrong, and the examiner knows they are. Should he stop the exam, and intervene, so that nobody writes wrong answers? No. This is completely wrong and illogical.

If people have free will, can do good or bad, then God has no reason to try to stop the consequences of that. That beats the purpose of free will. Beats the purpose of the test. God is not going to intervene to stop bad deeds or sin.

God has free will as well, what if His plan all along was to save those who believe in Him from their sin? It's not God's fault that we sin, but even still, what if out of His great love He still chose to save us from it, even while we were sinners? A free gift that we just have to accept. Allah has no desire to save us from our sin, he only wants to forgive continually, which means an end time Day of Judgement would be illogical. If it's Allah's plan to continually forgive sin forever and never destroy this earth and create new, then that's fine, but I'm not sure that that's what Islam teaches, therefore inconsistent theology that I have a hard time believing. I understand you think God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is illogical and thats fine as well, but I respectfully disagree. After all as humans we are made up of spirit, soul and body, 3 in 1.