How one can fight for secular society and freedom of worship at the same time

[Futuwwa]

You have now just reduced yourself to the intellectual level of people like Glenn Beck. Thank you for your long, rambling, and utterly confused rants Abz2000. It is amusing to see the massive constraints your logic is laboring under.

You'll be amazed to find out how widespread conspiracy theory adherence is among Muslims nowadays.

 

[faithandpeace]

Too often governments and entities claiming to be secular go far beyond "separation of church and state" to promoting the total erasure of religion from public life and attempting to replace personal religion with political ideology or corporate philosophy. There is a reason that the most attacked aspect of Islam that is targeted by secular governments and entities is the hijab. We Muslims can do our salat and wudu in private if we need to. We cannot hide our hijabs. Furthermore, secular culture insists on neutrality on the personal level. They don't want you to have dietary practices that limit corporate-driven consumption, times that you spend in prayer and study as opposed to watching intellectually deadening dumbed down television shows and sensory-driven
commercials, and they certainly don't want individuals forming community based on cooperation and executing righteous values as opposed to being divided and conquered, in fear, competing, and fighting over the dollar bill.

It is real simple. Secularists are in particular at war with Islam. They fear Islam because deep down they know it is the truth.

 

[Abz2000]

conspiracy theory

only a theory when western lamestream media says so no doubt, otherwise all other events are conspiracies, including legitimate elections in the face of stiff conspiracies and plots.
this is amazing, some of us are so into labels that we forget the meaning of terms.

con·spir·a·cy (k

n-spîr

-s

)n. pl. con·spir·a·cies1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.



i'm sure you saw how they attacked Julian Assange and Edward Snowden for exposing their vast conspiracies, and if the wmd deception wasn't a conspiracy of the highest magnitude leading to the mass murder of millions worldwide, i don't know what was.

It is actually a requirement of Islam to believe in the fact that "conspiracies" exist:


There were in the city nine men of a family, who made mischief in the land, and would not reform.

They said: "Swear a mutual oath by Allah that we shall make a secret night attack on him and his people, and that we shall then say to his heir (when he seeks vengeance): 'We were not present at the slaughter of his people, and we are positively telling the truth.'"

They plotted and planned, but We too planned, even while they perceived it not.

Then see what was the end of their plot!- this, that We destroyed them and their people, all (of them).

Quran 27:48-51

And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.


يَسْتَخْفُونَ مِنَ النَّاسِ وَلَا يَسْتَخْفُونَ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَهُوَ مَعَهُمْ إِذْ يُبَيِّتُونَ مَا لَا يَرْضَىٰ مِنَ الْقَوْلِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ مُحِيطًا

They seek to hide them selves from people, but they cannot hide from Allah, while He is with them when they plot by night, in words that He cannot approve: And Allah Doth compass round all that they do.

Quran 4:108

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَا فِي كُلِّ قَرْيَةٍ أَكَابِرَ مُجْرِمِيهَا لِيَمْكُرُوا فِيهَا ۖ وَمَا يَمْكُرُونَ إِلَّا بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ

Thus have We placed leaders in every town, its wicked men, to plot (and burrow) therein: but they only plot against their own souls, and they perceive it not.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Secularism as I understand it is the separation of church and state. That is what I support. I support the freedom of religion and I support the freedom from religion (ie, your religion should not control me). And I strongly believe that to have the freedom of religion you need the freedom from religion. If we force you to adhere to Catholic practices, you won't be able to practice Islam. I strongly believe that we should all be entitled to practice whatever religion we want, or practice no religion, so long as that practice does not infringe upon others.

I really don't see how anybody can fairly object to that.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Too often governments and entities claiming to be secular go far beyond "separation of church and state" to promoting the total erasure of religion from public life and attempting to replace personal religion with political ideology or corporate philosophy. There is a reason that the most attacked aspect of Islam that is targeted by secular governments and entities is the hijab. We Muslims can do our salat and wudu in private if we need to. We cannot hide our hijabs. Furthermore, secular culture insists on neutrality on the personal level. They don't want you to have dietary practices that limit corporate-driven consumption, times that you spend in prayer and study as opposed to watching intellectually deadening dumbed down television shows and sensory-driven
commercials, and they certainly don't want individuals forming community based on cooperation and executing righteous values as opposed to being divided and conquered, in fear, competing, and fighting over the dollar bill.

I agree with you on this, to some extent. Women, Men, Everybody should be entitled to wear whatever they want, barring legitimate security reasons otherwise. But I have to ask you if you would extend this same rule in all directions or if your concern is only for muslimas. Would you, for example, be ok with nudists (assuming for the moment that sanitary concerns were not a factor). I suspect that most muslims would view nudists the same way the people you complain of (and I agree with your complaint) complain of burkas.

It is real simple. Secularists are in particular at war with Islam. They fear Islam because deep down they know it is the truth.

No. They fear Islam because they have cultural values that conflict with what they (if unfairly) believe Islam to be. And because the western media has painted Islam as violent and oppressive, and those who listen only to Fox News buy into that.

 

[Abz2000]

Secularism as I understand it is the separation of church and state.

now we're getting there, the western media often prey upon the ignorance of the general public by using terms like that hoping people won't be able to differentiate between the church - and the complete system of governance and application of laws that is required in Islam. let's not fall for such deception and ask them what they mean first, coz one will usually find that they don't know what they mean themselves,

i was once incarcerated and before my hearing, some fat ugly woman came and asked me loads of questions, when she got to: what is your view on fundamentalists?
i asked her what she meant by the term fundamentalist, she looked like she was straining her brain and then said: it's ok, leave it.

stupid cow.

These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever).
They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!
Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord! Quran 53:23


peace,
abz

 

[WarriorforMarie]

What does this have to do with Islamic courts or sharia etc.? They've their own way of dealing with things it is their prerogative but I am not sure why you're taking a judicial matter and turning it into a personal matter?

I'm not turning it into a personal matter. I'm addressing the comments Snel made concerning Shia. He said the follow, "They are very different from the christians and the jews since they label themselves as muslims. That is a big issue becuase the shia have justified countless of crimes against the muslims and Islam. Some of them are: The killing and torturing of muslims (look at Syria), shirk (The worst crime in Islam that is obvious kufr), allowing prostitution (mutaa), calling Omar, Abu Bakr, Aisha disbelievers, hiding their true Shia beliefs through lies (Taqyya) and so on and so forth... The list goes on, this is a war from within (internally) and even externally through attacks and expansions. They are obvious disbelievers that are calling themselves "the true Muslims", so they are corrupting the message of the Prophet Muhammad by stealing the identity of Islam and killing muslims. The western society can give them religious freedom because it's immune to that type of virus. But for us muslims they remain our enemies."

I was just trying to point out that while some Sunni may think that they are the real Muslims and that the Shia are disbelievers that call themselves Muslims, shouldn't he consider that some Shia may think similar things about the Sunni. Are both not Muslims, just with different ways of interpreting Islam? Snel said that the Shia seek external expansion and internal war. But I imagine the Shia feel that it is the Sunni who are doing this.

Why can't these two different versions of Islam simply recognize that the other are Muslims (just with a different interpretation) and that most Sunni and most Shia just want to live their lives in peace?

 

[WarriorforMarie]

You'll be amazed to find out how widespread conspiracy theory adherence is among Muslims nowadays.

Hello Futuawwa!

Well, Muslims are not alone in believing such nonsense. In the United States there are many Christians who believe nonsense as well. In the past two months I've had two Christians try to convince me that the Muslim Brotherhood controls the Obama Administration!!!! The problem is that actually doing formal study into politics is too difficult for these people. Instead they use their ameteurish knowledge to try to understand politics but without anyway reference as to how to conduct research they are often out of touch with reality. It is like people who search for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. If they really wanted to discover a new species they could get a biology degree and go the Amazon. There are numerous species that have not been discovered yet. They are discovering new species all the time. But real research bores them. So instead they look for the Loch Ness.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

I agree with you on this, to some extent. Women, Men, Everybody should be entitled to wear whatever they want, barring legitimate security reasons otherwise. But I have to ask you if you would extend this same rule in all directions or if your concern is only for muslimas. Would you, for example, be ok with nudists (assuming for the moment that sanitary concerns were not a factor). I suspect that most muslims would view nudists the same way the people you complain of (and I agree with your complaint) complain of burkas.

It is real simple. Secularists are in particular at war with Islam. They fear Islam because deep down they know it is the truth.
No. They fear Islam because they have cultural values that conflict with what they (if unfairly) believe Islam to be. And because the western media has painted Islam as violent and oppressive, and those who listen only to Fox News buy into that.

Yes Pygocelis, I agree. Women should have the right to wear the hijab. It is wrong to deny them that. They should be allowed to choose.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

It is real simple. Secularists are in particular at war with Islam. They fear Islam because deep down they know it is the truth.

I neither fear Islam, nor do I think it is the truth. I hear Christians in the United States say the same thing about secular people.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

if someone told you they saw the Antichrist with their own eyes u wouldn't believe them anyway- because you don't believe he can exist, because you are an atheist pushing the doctrine of atheism (Godlessness) as the only unanimously accepted way of life. The Hadith is "nonsense" to you because in your broad mind, God doesnt exist and obviously someone that diesnt exist can't have sent prophets, and they in turn cant have seen future events.
you probably even believe your ancestors were apes and stuff. That's an intellectual stretch to justify the infidelity and denial some like to cling to.

Actually an oval dichotomy.

I'm not an atheist. Why do you think that I am an atheist? I believe it is possible God can exist, but I don't know if he exists. And if he does, how can I know which religion is the right one. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus. All of them claim to be right, they all have books and stories and say the others are wrong. How can someone choose between them? I do not believe that atheism is the only unanimously accepted way of life. And I don't think the Hadith is "nonsense" it has as much of a chance at being valid as any other component of a religion.

 

[sister herb]

To me it is just same what you are or what you are not but it sounds like you are some kind of agnostic. Any way, to me you are my brother in humanity, that´s all.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

now we're getting there, the western media often prey upon the ignorance of the general public by using terms like that hoping people won't be able to differentiate between the church - and the complete system of governance and application of laws that is required in Islam. let's not fall for such deception and ask them what they mean first, coz one will usually find that they don't know what they mean themselves,

Well, I am obligated to fight against such a system that you describe. You may believe that means I am fighting against Islam, but that is just your interpretation. Anyone who wants to live as a Muslim, to pray, to read the Quran, or wear hijab should be free to do so. But anyone who wishes to dominate society with their religion as you seem to be proposing is someone I must stop because I am swore to fight on behalf of my one true love. She would never yield to idiots who would force on her a lifestyle based off their own flawed understandings of their religion.

 

[Abz2000]

Well, I am obligated to fight against such a system that you describe. You may believe that means I am fighting against Islam, but that is just your interpretation. Anyone who wants to live as a Muslim, to pray, to read the Quran, or wear hijab should be free to do so. But anyone who wishes to dominate society with their religion as you seem to be proposing is someone I must stop because I am swore to fight on behalf of my one true love. She would never yield to idiots who would force on her a lifestyle based off their own flawed understandings of their religion.

Lol you just came around to the story of pharaoh and Moses, pharaoh was able to humour Moses with the first two but took exception to the last, you'll have to research the term "rabb" (translated lord) to understand the true significance of the argument (it was his kingdom and ability to legislate on whim at stake):

Said Pharaoh, "And what is the Lord of the worlds?"
26:24
[Moses] said, "The Lord of the heavens and earth and that between them, if you should be convinced."
26:25
[Pharaoh] said to those around him, "Do you not hear?"
26:26
[Moses] said, "Your Lord and the Lord of your first forefathers."
26:27
[Pharaoh] said, "Indeed, your 'messenger' who has been sent to you is mad."
26:28
[Moses] said, "Lord of the east and the west and all that is between them, if you were to reason."
26:29
[Pharaoh] said, "If you take a god other than me, I will surely place you among those imprisoned."


You see, he was able to reluctantly tolerate and humour the idea of "lord of the heavens and earth and everything between and even the existence of God and messengership of Moses (pbuh) ..... Until he realised the suggestion that his "dominion" (narrow minded prick) was about to be reclaimed by it's rightful owner and RULER,
But just like pharaoh was irrelevant, your claim of "stopping" God's system being acknowledged and re-instated is akin to a cow trying to jump over the moon.


هُوَ الَّذى أَرسَلَ رَسولَهُ بِالهُدىٰ وَدينِ الحَقِّ لِيُظهِرَهُ عَلَى الدّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَو كَرِهَ المُشرِكونَ

It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the way of life of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all ways of life, even though those who associate others with Godhood may detest (it).
Quran 61:9

Others in your case could mean your atheist leaders, they're just as relevant as pharaoh - fuel for hell.
Dunno y I wasted my time answering you and giving you good advice before, maybe just God's Will.

Peace be to those who follow the guidance.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

But just like pharaoh was irrelevant, your claim of "stopping" God's system being acknowledged and re-instated is akin to a cow trying to jump over the moon.

As I seem to recall there is an American flag on the moon. Is there a Quran on the moon? Maybe the next time you look up at the moon in preparation for Ramadan you should think about that.

 

[Futuwwa]

only a theory when western lamestream media says so no doubt, otherwise all other events are conspiracies, including legitimate elections in the face of stiff conspiracies and plots.
this is amazing, some of us are so into labels that we forget the meaning of terms.

con·spir·a·cy (k

n-spîr

-s

)n. pl. con·spir·a·cies1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

Conspiracy, in the sense it is used in conspiracy theories, means a larger group of powerful people or institutions secretly cooperating towards some end. That's what you are claiming when you spout conspiracy theories, so how about defending that rather than moving the goalposts and retreating to a more narrow, easily defensible definition?

i'm sure you saw how they attacked Julian Assange and Edward Snowden for exposing their vast conspiracies, and if the wmd deception wasn't a conspiracy of the highest magnitude leading to the mass murder of millions worldwide, i don't know what was.

Assange and Snowden didn't expose any conspiracies, just specific cases of governmental misconduct that had been kept hidden. The WMDs weren't a conspiracy, there was never any secret collaboration intended to dupe the public, just a single government that pushed the case. A government that may or may not have believed in it itself, and probably chose to believe in it because it was convenient for it to.

It is actually a requirement of Islam to believe in the fact that "conspiracies" exist:


There were in the city nine men of a family, who made mischief in the land, and would not reform.

They said: "Swear a mutual oath by Allah that we shall make a secret night attack on him and his people, and that we shall then say to his heir (when he seeks vengeance): 'We were not present at the slaughter of his people, and we are positively telling the truth.'"

They plotted and planned, but We too planned, even while they perceived it not.

Then see what was the end of their plot!- this, that We destroyed them and their people, all (of them).

Quran 27:48-51

And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.


يَسْتَخْفُونَ مِنَ النَّاسِ وَلَا يَسْتَخْفُونَ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَهُوَ مَعَهُمْ إِذْ يُبَيِّتُونَ مَا لَا يَرْضَىٰ مِنَ الْقَوْلِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ مُحِيطًا

They seek to hide them selves from people, but they cannot hide from Allah, while He is with them when they plot by night, in words that He cannot approve: And Allah Doth compass round all that they do.

Quran 4:108

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَا فِي كُلِّ قَرْيَةٍ أَكَابِرَ مُجْرِمِيهَا لِيَمْكُرُوا فِيهَا ۖ وَمَا يَمْكُرُونَ إِلَّا بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ

Thus have We placed leaders in every town, its wicked men, to plot (and burrow) therein: but they only plot against their own souls, and they perceive it not.

Ok, so the Quran says that there was once a specific, described conspiracy. It's quite a leap of logic to get from that to NWO and black helicopters.

 

[Futuwwa]

But just like pharaoh was irrelevant, your claim of "stopping" God's system being acknowledged and re-instated is akin to a cow trying to jump over the moon.

I'm not holding my breath regarding the reinstatement, not if people who keep blowing their horns about it over the internetz are any indication.

 

[Futuwwa]

Hello Futuawwa!

Well, Muslims are not alone in believing such nonsense. In the United States there are many Christians who believe nonsense as well. In the past two months I've had two Christians try to convince me that the Muslim Brotherhood controls the Obama Administration!!!! The problem is that actually doing formal study into politics is too difficult for these people. Instead they use their ameteurish knowledge to try to understand politics but without anyway reference as to how to conduct research they are often out of touch with reality. It is like people who search for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. If they really wanted to discover a new species they could get a biology degree and go the Amazon. There are numerous species that have not been discovered yet. They are discovering new species all the time. But real research bores them. So instead they look for the Loch Ness.

I'm not so sure that's actually what makes people believe in conspiracy theories. I think it has rather to do with apparent holes in conventional explanations. Instead of allowing the conventional explanations some leeway and admitting that there might be perfectly valid reasons that they just don't know about for the discrepancies, they throw out the whole explanation for not being perfect and choose to believe in a conspiracy theory, preferably one that conforms with their earlier biases. Since the theory apparently explains reality better than the conventional explanation, they stick with it, oblivious to the fact that the theory almost always introduces mucn more discrepancies than it actually solves.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

I'm not so sure that's actually what makes people believe in conspiracy theories. I think it has rather to do with apparent holes in conventional explanations. Instead of allowing the conventional explanations some leeway and admitting that there might be perfectly valid reasons that they just don't know about for the discrepancies, they throw out the whole explanation for not being perfect and choose to believe in a conspiracy theory, preferably one that conforms with their earlier biases. Since the theory apparently explains reality better than the conventional explanation, they stick with it, oblivious to the fact that the theory almost always introduces mucn more discrepancies than it actually solves.

Yes, I think you are right Futuwwa. Their theories seem to explain things better and fit their narrative. A serious study of political science would open their eyes to concepts and explanations they would never have considered, but that would require an investment in time that most do not have.

 

[sister herb]

As I seem to recall there is an American flag on the moon. Is there a Quran on the moon? Maybe the next time you look up at the moon in preparation for Ramadan you should think about that.

We don´t worship moon, the Quran or the American flag but Allah when we look time when Ramadan will start from the moon. And Allah is everywhere. Also Allah was everywhere before man made his flags.