How one can fight for secular society and freedom of worship at the same time

[glo]

Here is a statement from Dr. Muqtedar Khan, a well known Muslim intellectual and an associate professor in the Department of Political Science, and International Relations at the University of Delaware:

"The irony of Muslim existence today; Barring a few exceptions we are safer and live in greater social harmony as minorities in non-Muslim majority states than in Muslim majority countries."

Thoughts?

https://twitter.com/MuqtedarKhan

 

[Pygoscelis]

I think it all comes down to the question of whether or not you see peace, harmony, and co-existence as greater virtues, or righteousness and purity as greater virtues.

Intolerance breeds intolerance. So if you are intolerant of others and make that the norm of the land, then you are going to face intolerance yourself as the in group shrinks smaller and smaller and becomes more and more exclusive.

 

[Independent]

Assange and Snowden didn't expose any conspiracies, just specific cases of governmental misconduct that had been kept hidden.

Assange and Snowden both provide excellent evidence that there is no Illuminati etc. There is not one single email or document in all the material they revealed that suggests a conspiracy. What we do see is embarrassing personal remarks about ambassadors and the kind of things people think about each other, but don't normally say to their faces. It is stunning how little the revelations of Assange and Snowden change our understanding of US policy. It turns out that everything was more or less in the open any way.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

We don´t worship moon, the Quran or the American flag but Allah when we look time when Ramadan will start from the moon. And Allah is everywhere. Also Allah was everywhere before man made his flags.

Yes Sister HErb, you are right. I meant that the moon is looked at for Ramadan's start. I did not mean to suggest that Muslims worship the moon. I apologize if I gave offense. The point I was trying to make to Abz2000 is that while there may be an Allah, and Allah may be everywhere, that does not mean that he is going to intervene in the politics of the Islamic World. Ultimately the Islamic World is going to have to bring about political and social modernization about if they hope not to fall further and further behind the United States and a rising China.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

Assange and Snowden both provide excellent evidence that there is no Illuminati etc. There is not one single email or document in all the material they revealed that suggests a conspiracy. What we do see is embarrassing personal remarks about ambassadors and the kind of things people think about each other, but don't normally say to their faces. It is stunning how little the revelations of Assange and Snowden change our understanding of US policy. It turns out that everything was more or less in the open any way.

I imagine the Illuminati theorists will say that Assange and Snowden were actually plants by the Illuminati to throw us off their trail!

 

[Independent]

I imagine the Illuminati theorists will say that Assange and Snowden were actually plants by the Illuminati to throw us off their trail!

The beauty of conspiracy theories is that you can claim absolutely anything you want, and change it as often as you want, based on exactly the same piece of evidence.

 

[aamirsaab]

Here is a statement from Dr. Muqtedar Khan, a well known Muslim intellectual and an associate professor in the Department of Political Science, and International Relations at the University of Delaware:

"The irony of Muslim existence today; Barring a few exceptions we are safer and live in greater social harmony as minorities in non-Muslim majority states than in Muslim majority countries."

Thoughts?

https://twitter.com/MuqtedarKhan

I'm in full agreement and I'm sure most Muslims residing in non-Muslim lands are regardless of what they say. Even the most vehement Muslim critics know deep down this is true.

 

[glo]

Thank you for making that statement, aamirsaab. That's good to hear when it sometimes feels like many Muslims complain about the Western societies (which of course are far from perfect in many ways).

 

[Abz2000]

Do you believe that is because Muslims in so called Muslim ands are living under Muslim rule, or because they live under puppets who need to appease the kuffar and loan sharks to stay in power?

The constant meddling in the affairs of Muslims and invasions if they don't listen is a stark indication of why Muslims are actually standing up to the puppets and the puppet drivers, getting called extremists and insurgents in the process, worse still, some who are untouched by the fitnah wonder why they don't just sit there suffering without doing something.

Those who like to be among the kuffar rather than try to help in the establishment of Islam will be with the kuffar on the day of judgement, even the prophet pbuh washed his hands off them.
Let me make it clear to you that the kuffar will not allow you to establish Islam in peace and that those who strive in the effort will have to endure reproach and spite from the kuffar and Munafiqeen alike.

May Allah save me from being among the kuffar and give me the honour to die under an Islamic khilafah or in the process of working towards it.

I'm gonna give this site a break for a while, it seems even the mods are more worried about falling into fitnah than understanding the meaning of freedom and what it requires.

Remember when the kuffar came to the ProPiet pbuh to compromise in service?
We'll serve ('ibaadah) your God and you serve ('ibaadah) ours? He refused.
It is not very different for those happy to live under infidel "gods" who reject the rule of Allah and prescribe rules for them at whim - as long as they compromise and throw you a few tidbits and "freedom to do anything but disobey our laws".


I'll leave you to consider these examples, see if it fits with your style:

Muslim reported another part of this story on the authority of Abu Hurairah [R] — He said: "When the following verses were revealed:

"And warn your tribe (O Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace)) of near kindred." [26:214]
The Messenger of Allâh (Allah bless him and give him peace) called all the people of Quraish; so they gathered and he gave them a general warning. Then he made a particular reference to certain tribes, and said: "O Quraish, rescue yourselves from the Fire; O people of Bani Ka‘b, rescue yourselves from Fire; O Fatimah, daughter of Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) , rescue yourself from the Fire, for I have no power to protect you from Allâh in anything except that I would sustain relationship with you." [Muslim 1/114; Bukhari 1/385,2/702]

It was verily a loud suggestive Call stating unequivocally to the closest people that belief in his Message constituted the corner-stone of any future relation between him and them, and that the blood-relation on which the whole Arabian life was based, had ceased to exist in the light of that Divine ultimatum.

Shouting the Truth and the Polytheists’ Reaction

The Prophet’s voice kept reverberating in Makkah until the following verse was revealed:

"Therefore proclaim openly (Allâh’s Message — Islamic Monotheism), that which you are commanded, and turn away from Al-Mushrikûn (polytheists)." [Al-Qur'an 15:94]
He then commenced discrediting the superstitious practices of idolatry, revealing its worthless reality and utter impotence, and giving concrete proofs that idolatry per se or taking it as the media through which an idolater could come in contact with Allâh, is manifest falsehood.

The Makkans, on their part, burst into outrage and disapproval. Muhammad’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) words created a thunderbolt that turned the Makkan time-honoured ideological life upside down. They could ill afford to hear someone attaching to polytheists and idolaters, the description of straying people. They started to rally their resources to settle down the affair, quell the onward marching revolution and deal a pre-emptive strike to its votaries before it devours and crushes down their consecrated traditions and long standing heritage. The Makkans had the deep conviction that denying godship to anyone save Allâh and that belief in the Divine Message and the Hereafter are interpreted in terms of complete compliance and absolute commitment, and this in turn leaves no area at all for them to claim authority over themselves and over their wealth, let alone their subordinates. In short, their arrogated religiously-based supremacy and highhandedness would no longer be in effect; their pleasures would be subordinated to the pleasures of Allâh and His Messenger and lastly they would have to abstain from incurring injustices on those whom they falsely deemed to be weak, and perpetrating dreadful sins in their everyday life. They had already been fully aware of these meanings, that is why their souls would not condescend to accept this ‘disgraceful’ position not out of motives based on dignity and honour but rather because:

"Nay! (Man denies Resurrection and Reckoning. So) he desires to continue committing sins." [Al-Qur'an 75:5]
They had been aware of all these consequences but they could afford to do nothing before an honest truthful man who was the highest example of good manners and human values. They had never known such an example in the history of their folks or grandfathers. What would they do? They were baffled, and they had the right to be so.

Following careful deliberations, they hit upon the only target available, i.e. to contact the Messenger’s uncle, Abu Talib and request him to intervene and advise his nephew to stop his activities. In order to attach a serious and earnest stamp to their demand, they chose to touch the most sensitive area in Arabian life, viz., ancestral pride. They addressed Abu Talib in the following manner: "O Abu Talib! Your nephew curses our gods; finds faults with our way of life, mocks at our religion and degrades our forefathers; either you must stop him, or you must let us get at him. For you are in the same opposition as we are in opposition to him; and we will rid you of him." Abu Talib tried to appease their wrath by giving them a polite reply. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) , however, continued on his way preaching Allâh’s religion and calling men hitherto, heedless of all their desperate attempts and malicious intentions. [Ibn Hisham 1/265]
.....

....
Quraish’s Representative negotiates with the Messenger of Allâh (Allah bless him and give him peace)

Shortly after the conversion of these two powerful heroes, Hamzah bin ‘Abdul-Muttalib and ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab[R] , the clouds of tyranny and oppression started to clear away and the polytheists realized that it was no use meting out torture to the Muslims. They consequently began to direct their campaign to a different course. The authentic records of the biography of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) show that it had occurred to the Makkan leaders to credit Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) with ambition. They, therefore, time and again plied him with temptation. One day some of the important men of Makkah gathered in the enclosure of Al-Ka‘bah, and ‘Utbah bin Rabi‘a, a chief among them, offered to approach the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and contract a bargain with him whereby they give him whatever worldly wealth he asks for, on condition that he keep silent and no longer proclaim his new faith. The people of Quraish endorsed his proposal and requested him to undertake that task. ‘Utbah came closer to Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) and addressed him in the following words:

We have seen no other man of Arabia, who has brought so great a calamity to a nation, as you have done. You have outraged our gods and religion and taxed our forefathers and wise men with impiety and error and created strife amongst us. You have left no stone unturned to estrange the relations with us. If you are doing all this with a view to getting wealth, we will join together to give you greater riches than any Quraishite has possessed. If ambition moves you, we will make you our chief. If you desire kingship we will readily offer you that. If you are under the power of an evil spirit which seems to haunt and dominate you so that you cannot shake off its yoke, then we shall call in skilful physicians to cure you.

"Have you said all?" asked Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace); and then hearing that all had been said, he spoke forth, and said:

"In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Hâ-Mîm.
A revelation from Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
A Book whereof the verses are explained in detail;
— a Qur’ân in Arabic for people who know.
Giving glad tidings and warning.
But most of them turn away, so they listen not.
And they say: Our hearts are under coverings
(screened) from that to which you invite us …" [Al-Qur'an 41: 1-5]

The Messenger of Allâh (Allah bless him and give him peace) went on reciting the Chapter while ‘Utbah sitting and listening attentively with his hand behind his back to support him. When the Messenger reached the verse that required prostration, he immediately prostrated himself. After that, he turned to ‘Utbah saying: "Well Abu Al-Waleed! You have heard my reply, you are now free to do whatever you please." ‘Utbah then retired to his company to apprise them of the Prophet’s attitude. When his compatriots saw him, they swore that he had returned to them with a countenance unlike the one he had before meeting the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) . He immediately communicated to them the details of the talk he gave and the reply he received, and appended saying: "I have never heard words similar to those ones he recited. They definitely relate neither to poetry nor to witchcraft nor do they derive from soothsaying. O people of Quraish! I request you to heed my advice and grant the man full freedom to pursue his goals, in which case you could safely detach yourselves from him. I swear that his words bear a supreme Message. Should the other Arabs rid you of him, they will then spare you the trouble, on the other hand if he accedes to power over the Arabs, then you will bask in his kingship and share him his might." These words of course fell on deaf ears, and did not appeal to the infidels, who jeered at ‘Utbah and claimed that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) had bewitched him. [Ibn Hisham 1/293,294]

http://www.sunnipath.com/library/books/B0033P0009.aspx


Realise that as long as you uphold this way of life firmly, you will be seen as troublemakers by those who have a vested interest in controlling people and hate what Allah has revealed.

Peace, and bye bye.
Abz

 

[Futuwwa]

I'm open to the possibility that there might actually be worldwide conspiracies out there. I'd think, though, that if your goal is to find if there is one, the absolutely worst place to start is: "What if an ineffectual 18th-century Bavarian secret society might actually have survived and turned into an all-powerful cabal of secret overlords?"

Conspiracy theory adherents like to insult those who disbelieve them as duped, brainwashed "sheeple", yet I'm not seeing them being much different. When was the last time you heard an original thought from one? No, it's the same old conspiracies being recycled and propagated back and forth within the conspiracy theorist community, updated from time to time to retroactively account for recent world events. A flock of sheep if there ever was one.

Also, NNWO

 

[Abz2000]

 

[Independent]

The irony about the appeal to tradition that Abz makes - this idea of getting back to the original spirit of Islam - is that the first 100 years of Islam simply cannot have been anything like the world he now seeks.

Who knows exactly what it was like all those centuries ago. But when Muslims first conquered Syria, Palestine, Egypt etc they were in a tiny minority, and that tells us something about how they must have lived.

One thing is for certain. It's impossible that they could have treated the overwhelmingly Christian populations they ruled over with the contempt and disgust that Abz shows today.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

Those who like to be among the kuffar rather than try to help in the establishment of Islam will be with the kuffar on the day of judgement, even the prophet pbuh washed his hands off them.

Does it make your blood boil that there are Muslims that do not agree with you? In my experience, the insecure harbor the greatest anger not for those who are different from them, but who are almost the same except for some differences.

I'm gonna give this site a break for a while

;D;D;D Please message me you email so that while you give this board a break you will at least not be giving me a break. My intuition is that you are having doubts about your opinions and that is why you are fleeing from the board.

 

[Abz2000]

I have no reason to flee, I just prefer to leave ignorant diversions from what is at stake with noble dignity, especially when I see people unable to support their position and divert issues to childish assertions like "jealousy" for something there is no reason to be jealous about. And I would definitely decline your request for any of my emails since from my experience, you have no intention to learn anything, just to troll and create disputes about unnecessary issues - when Muslims are dying and in need of our support and collective agreement on the way forward.

Futuwwa, I prefer not to have to go back to level one but you make it essential to respond to your labels and misconstructions.
I have often found you resorting to "scary labels" like "conspiracy theory community" etc which is an old ploy used by lamestream media in order to make people fear to agree with certain topics out of fear of being mis-labelled or bundled with a group to which they don't belong. The resultant effect is that people tend to dismiss often
valid concerns as "those crazy ideas" without looking at the facts.

Let me make it clear to you, it is not just one administration or a "regrettable mistake" on he part of the u.s government, it's standard practice of a successive group which continuously wields massive influence on American policy, these people get away with murdering heads of state when things don't go as they plan. The MAJORITY of American people believe the government is hiding the true events of he Kennedy assasination and u.s documents and statements PROVE BEYOND A DOUBT that they are AT LEAST hiding something or more credibly hiding active participation or perversion of te course of the investigation.

Here's a famous "conspiracy" "theory"(ahem) for your digestion:

Operation Northwoods was a series of false flag proposals that originated within the United States government in 1962, but were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[2] The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit perceived acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro.[3] One part of Operation Northwoods was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

Operation Northwoods proposals included hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S.*government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authorized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy.

Operation Dirty Trick, a plot to blame Castro if the 1962 Mercury manned space flight carrying John Glenn crashed, saying: "The objective is to provide irrevocable proof that, should the MERCURY manned orbit flight fail, the fault lies with the Communists et al. Cuba [sic]." It continues, "This to be accomplished by manufacturing various pieces of evidence which would prove electronic interference on the part of the Cubans."

People like assange and Snowden are just mild "problem-reaction-solution" examples the u.s government crucify in order to scare people and edit laws- maybe because their designs are darker than they can afford to have exposed:

Included in the nations the Joint Chiefs suggested as targets for covert attacks were Jamaica and Trinidad-Tobago. Since both were members of the British Commonwealth, the Joint Chiefs hoped that by secretly attacking them and then falsely blaming Cuba, the United States could incite the people of the United Kingdom into supporting a war against Castro.[16] As the U.S. Department of Defense report noted:

Any of the contrived situations described above are inherently, extremely risky in our democratic system in which security can be maintained, after the fact, with very great difficulty. If the decision should be made to set up a contrived situation it should be one in which participation by U.S. personnel is limited only to the most highly trusted covert personnel. This suggests the infeasibility of the use of military units for any aspect of the contrived situation."[16]

You will notice the privacy protection edits being made are not about refraining from spying and Desisting from those crimes, it's about who can access them and what laws should be made to deal with leakers.
They also serve another purpose, a tactic which Orwell described long ago to instill fear of the unknown among the masses: "big brother is watching you" be careful of what you say, censor yourselves out of he idea of open opposition to our schemes, because it's impossible for us to control all of you.

 

[Futuwwa]

I have no reason to flee, I just prefer to leave ignorant diversions from what is at stake with noble dignity, especially when I see people unable to support their position and divert issues to childish assertions like "jealousy" for something there is no reason to be jealous about. And I would definitely decline your request for any of my emails since from my experience, you have no intention to learn anything, just to troll and create disputes about unnecessary issues - when Muslims are dying and in need of our support and collective agreement on the way forward.

And how, pray tell, are we to reach that collective agreement, and who is at fault for there not being such an agreement?

If the answers are "By everyone starting to agree with Abz" and "Everyone who doesn't agree with Abz", then you're hardly helping.

Futuwwa, I prefer not to have to go back to level one but you make it essential to respond to your labels and misconstructions.
I have often found you resorting to "scary labels" like "conspiracy theory community" etc which is an old ploy used by lamestream media in order to make people fear to agree with certain topics out of fear of being mis-labelled or bundled with a group to which they don't belong. The resultant effect is that people tend to dismiss often
valid concerns as "those crazy ideas" without looking at the facts.

Whether there's such a ploy by the mainstream media or not is irrelevant. There is such a thing as a conspiracy theorist community, so I'm going to refer to it like that. As much as you accuse me of dirty ploys, the fact remains that my post #56 refuted your post #43, after which you ignored that track. You are the one ignoring facts, not me.

Let me make it clear to you, it is not just one administration or a "regrettable mistake" on he part of the u.s government, it's standard practice of a successive group which continuously wields massive influence on American policy, these people get away with murdering heads of state when things don't go as they plan. The MAJORITY of American people believe the government is hiding the true events of he Kennedy assasination and u.s documents and statements PROVE BEYOND A DOUBT that they are AT LEAST hiding something or more credibly hiding active participation or perversion of te course of the investigation.

Oooh, the Kennedy assassination, the favourite topic of conspiracy theorists. You are right, though, there was a conspiracy pertaining to the Kennedy assassination. A conspiracy by the KGB to proliferate conspiracy theories in order to undermine the trust of the public in the US government, a purpose for which the KGB falsified evidence of involvement of US governmental agencies in the assassination. Congratulations, conspiracy theorists! You thought you were exposing conspiracies, while in fact you were unwittingly exploited by the KGB in a conspiracy of its own. Who's being sheeple now? ;D

Here's a famous "conspiracy" "theory"(ahem) for your digestion:

Except that it is not a conspiracy theory. At its height, it was a small conspiracy. It's a planned false flag attack that was shelved, and nobody but the involved knew about until it was declassified much later.

It would be a conspiracy theory, and an indication that the conspiracy theorist community is actually onto something, if it had been able to predict

To later point out that there were indeed conspiracies does not, in any way, shape or form, imply that the current conspiracies you are going on an on about are actually real.

Tell me, when was the last time the superior insight you have into the conspiracies that exist made it possible for you to predict the future course of events? Got any actual predictions from years ago to show that have turned out to be true? Predictions that are actually specific enough that one can evaluate objectively whether they failed or succeeded, and which couldn't be made without "knowledge" of the conspiracies? I.e. not easy, obvious safe bets like "The USA will be involved in a war in the Middle East".