If creating sects, in islam is haraam, then why is there shia's and sunni's?

[Asim Khan]

As brother Sampharo wrote, the prophet saw himself said to also follow the rightly guided caliphs after following him. But what good does it do for someone to say he is Sunni/that he abides by this hadith when he tends to think "those hadith were written after such a long time" to help himself to take Riba or masterbation to be perfectly fine?

Here is Sheikh Yusuf Estes' full argument, Subhanallah!

http://www.hearislam.com/pic.php?id=377

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

Sunni's aren't a sect.

 

[AlexJ90]

Sunni's aren't a sect.

they arnt? why? ..and are shi'as a sect then?

 

[sur]

I am studying the quran and have come across this issue.

In the quran ... surah 3 verse 103 says


And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allâh (i.e. this Qur'ân), and be not divided among yourselves, ........... Thus Allâh makes His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.

Why sects???

Because of leaving Quran(Rope of ALLAH) the 3rd class status. & taking Sunnah superior to Quran & giving 1st class status to "BLIND-Bandwagoning" of so-called scholars.


If we keep the right order:-
Quran(The Rope of ALLAH)>>>>Sunnah>>>>>Scholars...... There would be NO scets.



A person was asked by Prophet, how would he get the guidence, he replied from QURAN..... then Prophet asked if u don't find the answer in Quran then??? He replied, from Sunnah..... Prophet asked if not even from sunnah then??? He replied he'll work it out himself in light of Quran & sunnah

Quran was all written down during prophet's life, while sunnah was written down quite a while after his death. There are NO mistakes in Quran while there are human errors inserted in recording of sunnah. That's why we have "Authentic" & "Non-Authentic" ahadees.....


So when we find answer to something in Quran there's no need to go any further. If we unable to find aanswer in Quran then we should turn to Sunnah.... & so on...

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

they arnt? why? ..and are shi'as a sect then?

Please define a Sunni.

 

[AlexJ90]

Please define a Sunni.

a total opposie of a shi'a lol;D

 

[AlexJ90]

*opposite............

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

a total opposie of a shi'a lol;D

If they are total opposites, how can they both be sects?

 

[AlexJ90]

shi'asm is a sect within islam is it not?... as there view differs from 85% of the muslim world population..(which are sunni's.. according to encyclopedia)

so yeah please answer.. WHY are sunni's NOT a sect?

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Do sects like: Shi‘ah (Shi‘ites), Al-Shafi‘iyah (Shafi‘is), Al-Hanifiyah (Hanafis), Al-Tijaniyyah (Tijanis) and others fall under the seventy-two sects referred to by the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as dwellers of Hellfire? If all these sects are going to be in Hellfire except one, why are they permitted to visit the Sacred House of Allah (i.e. the Ka‘bah)? ?

yes or no?

Abu Haneefah, Maalik ibn Anas, ash-Shaafi’ee, Ahmad ibn Hanbal
SO Haneefi, maaliki , shaafies, hanbals are not sects but schools of thought
shia sufi etc are sects

 

[AlexJ90]

Abu Haneefah, Maalik ibn Anas, ash-Shaafi’ee, Ahmad ibn Hanbal
SO Haneefi, maaliki , shaafies, hanbals are not sects but schools of thought
shia sufi etc are sects

shia are sects?... so are you saying the shi'as are in the wrong?

 

[alcurad]

brother sempharo:

حديث افتراق الأمة إلى فرق فوق السبعين كلها في النار إلا واحدة، فيه كلام كثير في ثبوته وفي دلالته.

أ- فأول ما ينبغي أن يعلم هنا أن الحديث لم يرد في أي من الصحيحين، برغم أهمية موضوعه، دلالة على أنه لم يصح على شرط واحد منهما.

وما يقال من أنهما لم يستوعبا الصحيح، فهذا مسلم، ولكنهما حرصا أن لا يدعا بابا مهما من أبواب العلم إلا ورويا فيه شيئا ولو حديثا واحدا.

ب- إن بعض روايات الحديث لم تذكر أن الفرق كلها في النار إلا واحدة، وإنما ذكرت الافتراق وعدد الفرق فقط. وهذا هو حديث أبي هريرة الذي رواه أبو داود والترمذي وابن ماجه وابن حبان والحاكم وفيه يقول:

"افترقت اليهود على إحدى ـ أو اثنتين ـ وسبعين فرقة، وتفرقت النصارى على إحدى ـ أو اثنتين ـ وسبعين فرقة، وتفترق أمتي على ثلاث وسبعين فرقة".

والحديث ـ وإن قال فيه الترمذي: حسن صحيح، وصححه ابن حبان والحاكم ـ مداره على محمد بن عمرو بن علقمة بن وقاص الليثي، ومن قرأ ترجمته في "تهذيب التهذيب"، علم أن الرجل متكلم فيه من قبل حفظه، وإن أحدا لم يوثقه بإطلاق وكل ما ذكروه أنهم رجحوه على من هو أضعف منه. ولهذا لم يزد الحافظ في التقريب على أن قال: صدوق له أوهام. والصدق وحده في هذا المقام لا يكفي ما لم ينضم إليه الضبط، فكيف إذا كان معه أوهام؟؟*!

ومعلوم أن الترمذي وابن حبان والحاكم من المتساهلين في التصحيح، وقد وصف الحاكم بأنه واسع الخطو في شرط التصحيح.

وهو هنا صحح الحديث على شرط مسلم، باعتبار أن محمد بن عمرو احتج به مسلم، ورده الذهبي بأنه لم يحتج به منفردا، بل بانضمامه إلى غيره (1/6). على أن هذا الحديث من رواية أبي هريرة ليس فيه زيادة: أن الفرق "كلها في النار إلا واحدة" وهي التي تدور حولها المعركة.

وقد روي الحديث بهذه الزيادة من طريق عدد من الصحابة: عبد الله بن عمرو، ومعاوية، وعوف بن مالك وأنس، وكلها ضعيفة الإسناد، وإنما قووها بانضمام بعضها إلى بعض.

والذي أراه أن التقوية بكثرة الطرق ليست على إطلاقها، فكم من حديث له طرق عدة ضعفوه، كما يبدو ذلك في كتب التخريج، والعلل، وغيرها! وإنما يؤخذ بها فيما لا معارض له، ولا إشكال في معناه.

وهنا إشكال أي إشكال في الحكم بافتراق الأمة أكثر مما افترق اليهود والنصارى من ناحية، وبأن هذه الفرق كلها هالكة وفي النار إلا واحدة منها. وهو يفتح بابا لأن تدعى كل فرقة أنها الناجية، وأن غيرها هو الهالك، وفي هذا ما فيه من تمزيق للأمة وطعن بعضها في بعض، مما يضعفها جميعا، ويقوي عدوها عليها، ويغريه بها.

ولهذا طعن العلامة ابن الوزير في الحديث عامة، وفي هذه الزيادة خاصة، لما تؤدي إليه من تضليل الأمة بعضها لبعض، بل تكفيرها بعضها لبعض.

قال رحمه الله في "العواصم" وهو يتحدث عن فضل هذه الأمة، والحذر من التورط في تكفير أحد منها، قال: وإياك والاغترار بـ "كلها هالكة إلا واحدة" فإنها زيادة فاسدة، غير صحيحة القاعدة، ولا يؤمن أن تكون من دسيس الملاحدة.

I actually meant this, thanks though

 

[anonymous]

Well sects arise out of differences, and the messenger of Allah peace be upon him told us that Islam will split into 73 sects and only one will go to jannah, the correct one he said is the sect that follow's his sunnah and is upon what him and his companions are upon.

So as long as you make sure that everything you do was done by the messenger of Allah peace be upon him and his companions you'll be ok

some of the differences that the sects have are, shia's curse the prophets companions among many other viole things and sunni's don't do this, instead they follow the example of the companions aswell as the prophet peace be upon him.

And another difference is with the sufi's, they have alot of innovated stuff like congregational dhkir, this wasn't done by the prophet (peace be upon him) or his companions. They never sat in a room with the lights off in the dark going, "Allah hu" as far as I'm aware.

Also Sufi's tend to refer to themselves as "Sunni's" and call every 1 else who doesn't believe in sufism a "Wahaaabi" which isn't right because what they refer to as wahaaabi's are people who are the real sunni's because they're trying to follow the sunnah as much as possible.

I classify myself as a sunni because I believe you should follow the prophet's sunnah as much as possible and reject everything that wasn't done by him or his companions. But this doesn't seem to register with other sects.

Wahabbi are the most corrupted sect of muslims. I don't even have to start. Same goes for salafis.

 

[anonymous]

And No, i am not sufi nor shia. Just Muslim . Following the sunnah and Qur'an to the best of my ability.

Against the ******sm and salafism.

 

[Salahudeen]

hmm interesting, why don't you eductate me,

what is a "wahaaabi" according to you?? define what a "wahaaabi" is and what is incorrect about his beliefs, and then define how he differs with you and what you believe. And explain why you refer to him as "wahaaabi" and what is "corrupt" about him.

You say your following the sunnah and the Qur'an but according to who's interpretation are you following it? your own? or your sheikh who's reached such a high status that he's become 1 with Allah?

 

[IslamicRevival]

Well sects arise out of differences, and the messenger of Allah peace be upon him told us that Islam will split into 73 sects and only one will go to jannah, the correct one he said is the sect that follow's his sunnah and is upon what him and his companions are upon.

So as long as you make sure that everything you do was done by the messenger of Allah peace be upon him and his companions you'll be ok

some of the differences that the sects have are, shia's curse the prophets companions among many other viole things and sunni's don't do this, instead they follow the example of the companions aswell as the prophet peace be upon him.

And another difference is with the sufi's, they have alot of innovated stuff like congregational dhkir, this wasn't done by the prophet (peace be upon him) or his companions. They never sat in a room with the lights off in the dark going, "Allah hu" as far as I'm aware.

Also Sufi's tend to refer to themselves as "Sunni's" and call every 1 else who doesn't believe in sufism a "Wahaaabi" which isn't right because what they refer to as wahaaabi's are people who are the real sunni's because they're trying to follow the sunnah as much as possible.

I classify myself as a sunni because I believe you should follow the prophet's sunnah as much as possible and reject everything that wasn't done by him or his companions. But this doesn't seem to register with other sects.

Its Zikr of Allah SWT, What on earth is wrong with that?

 

[Salahudeen]

^ it's an act of worship that isn't in accordance with the prophets sunnah peace be upon him, in Islam all acts of worship have to be done in accordance with the prophets sunnah peace be upon him.

for example can you pray 4 rakaat for maghrib instead of 3? no because the prophet only prayed 3 but just like what you're saying here somebody could say with this aswell

"what's wrong with praying 4 rakaat for maghrib instead of 3 we're doing something good"

what's wrong is the prophet pbuh never did it that way, acts of worship that aren't in accordance with his sunnah are newly innovations unless you can show me where it's mentioned that the prophet peace be upon him and his companions sat in a dark room and did group dhikr, then I'll follow it myself if the prophet peace be upon him and his companions did it.

but if you can',t that means your following whoever introduced this pratice of group dhikr, your following him because to my knowledge the prophet pbuh never did group dhikr.

He did dhikr after salah individually which should be done because we know he did it, it's narrated in the sunnah. We do dhikr like this because it's in accordance with his teachings. and by doing dhikr in this manner we're following his sunnah.

 

[IslamicRevival]

^ it's an act of worship that isn't in accordance with the prophets sunnah peace be upon him, in Islam all acts of worship have to be done in accordance with the prophets sunnah peace be upon him.

for example can you pray 4 rakaat for maghrib instead of 3? no because the prophet only prayed 3 but just like what you're saying here somebody could say with this aswell

"what's wrong with praying 4 rakaat for maghrib instead of 3 we're doing something good"

what's wrong is the prophet pbuh never did it that way, acts of worship that aren't in accordance with his sunnah are newly innovations unless you can show me where it's mentioned that the prophet peace be upon him and his companions sat in a dark room and did group dhikr, then I'll follow it myself if the prophet peace be upon him and his companions did it.

but if you can',t that means your following whoever introduced this pratice of group dhikr, your following him because to my knowledge the prophet pbuh never did group dhikr.

He did dhikr after salah individually which should be done because we know he did it, it's narrated in the sunnah. We do dhikr like this because it's in accordance with his teachings. and by doing dhikr in this manner we're following his sunnah.

:hmm: Its kind of funny you claiming Sufis are "innovators" yet you yourself are talking absolute nonsense.

What is wrong with gathering and remembering Allah SWT? How can you say this is wrong?!!

Also Answer this, where does it say we are allowed to use the Microwave? Are we all innovators because we use the microwave?

 

[Salahudeen]

^ innovations in the religion lol and how am I talking nonsense I could say your talking nonsense doesn't mean anything.

There'd be nothing wrong with it, if the prophet and his companions did it because they are our examples, did they ever get together and switch off the lights and start chanting?

I don't know about you but I choose the follow the prophets sunnah and the companions which your not doing when you gather to worship Allah by doing congregational dhikr.

Do you agree that dhikr is an act of worship?

Oh I just realised what I think you meant, was you talking about me saying that all acts of worship have to be in accordance with the sunnah?? you calling that absolute nonsense? You might like to consider the following.

Abu Dawud also reported from al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, that “the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) led us in prayer one day, then he turned to us and exhorted us strongly . . . (he said), ‘Pay attention to my sunnah (way) and the way of the Rightly-guided Khaleefahs after me, adhere to it and hold fast to it.’” (Sahih Abi Dawud, Kitaab al-Sunnah).

Al-Irbaadh bin Saariyah reported that Allaah’s Messenger gave the Companions (Sahaabah) an exhortation one-day after the fajr Prayer which caused their eyes to shed tears and their hearts to quiver. So a man said, "This sounds like a final exhortation, so counsel us, O Allaah’s Messenger (SAW)." He (SAW) said,"I counsel you to fear and revere Allaah, and to listen and obey (your Muslim ruler) – even if an Ethiopian slave becomes your leader. Those who will live (after me) will see much dissension (among the Muslims); so adhere to my Sunnah and the Sunnah (way) of the rightly guided successors after me; cling to that with your teeth. Beware of novelties (in the Deen), for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is a deviation (from the true guidance). "
(At-Tirmidthee who reported it to be (authentic) Sahih)

see the key sentence, "every innovation is a deviation" isn't congregational dhikr an innovation because it was don't by the prophet pbuh or his companions?


Ibn Mas`ud (RAA) used to say, "Doing a little of the Sunna is better than striving hard in innovation."


Al-Hasan ibn Abi’l-Hasan (RH) said, "A little action following a sunna is better than a lot of action following an innovation."

you refer to ensuring that all acts of worship are in accordance with the sunnah as nonsense when there's countless hadith on the importance of it?

 

[IslamicRevival]

You know what, This is the blessed month of Ramadhan and its best if the mods close this sensitive thread.

I have no energy to talk to someone who claims gathering and remembering Allah SWT is an "innovation" (AstaghFirullah!)

Biggest pile of rubbish i have ever heard. I will leave you with this:

Abu Huraira narrated that Rasool Allah (SAW) said, “Any gathering in which people sit and do not do Zikr of Allah and do not send Durood upon their Prophet (SAW) is of loss for them. If Allah wills, give them azab (punishment) and if wills, forgive them.” (Tirmizi)

Abu Huraira narrated that Rasool Allah (SAW) said, “Allah Tabaraka wa Ta’ala says I am closer to my slave than his supposition of which he keeps of me. And when he/her does Zikr of Allah, I am with him/her. If he does Zikr in his heart, I do his Zikr near MY proximity (closeness) and if he does Zikr in a gathering, I mention him in a gathering Afdhal (better) than it. (Bukhari)

You seriously need to take back what you said. Think its time i went to sleep now.