If God existed…Question to an atheist! first of many to follow

[Mohsin]

Satsriakal Ansar Ji:brother:


"this does not necessitate that the concept of God should be illogical"

it doesnt necessitate that the nature of god be logical either, the premise is that man would be unable to accept an illogical god but this is not true i accept it, perhaps man needs to learn humility first before trying to understand the concept of god?

For the following scenarios to be possible is only expected from a logically impossible god:

-If God can create a rock too heavy to lift, then he is not omnipotent because he cannot lift a certain rock.

-If God cannot create a rock too heavy to lift, then he is not omnipotent because he is unable to create a certain rock.

I love a conceptually self-contradictory god,

Gurfateh

ISDhillon

Sorry bro, in islam God is not self-contradictory

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...-create-stoneheavier-than-him.html#post159645

 

[HeiGou]

Sorry bro, in islam God is not self-contradictory

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...-create-stoneheavier-than-him.html#post159645

Hmm, well Ansar Al-Adl does his usual clear and precise answer, but that still looks like a lot of re-defining the question to me. So you argue that such a stone could not exist. The problem does not go away in general terms if you reject the specific case. How about rephrasing it - Can God send another Prophet if He wants to?

 

[------]

How about rephrasing it - Can God send another Prophet if He wants to?

God could send another Prophet IF he wants to but the fact is that Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of the prophets meaning no more Prophets will come.

 

[Mohsin]

using the Dr Zakir Naik approach,

Yes God can send another Prophet if he wanted, but he won't, because he would contradict himself and that would be ungodly so he would not do it

Similar to the question of can God eat or become human, the answer could be yes, he can do that, but he never would because he would be limiting his powers and that would be ungodly

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

My honest opinion is if God existed the evidence would be quite easy to find and all around us, unfortunately it just is not.

eace: Peace!

I believe perception of some people may be flawed! What you see as the absence of God all around you many see as his fruits and fruitions, of his will! Truth is evidence is all around, its just how you concieve that evidence which matters. For example look at how an ant colonises around, how do a million ants act as one group and how is it they all know there task from the instant there born? How is soldier ants distinguished from normal ants? Just a thought

eace: Peace!​

 

[HeiGou]

using the Dr Zakir Naik approach,

I didn't know Dr Naik comment on this issue. Again, I think I'm original only to find....

Yes God can send another Prophet if he wanted, but he won't, because he would contradict himself and that would be ungodly so he would not do it

Well this is an argument I do not care to have, but surely if it is unGodly, He cannot do it because that would be a contradiction?

Similar to the question of can God eat or become human, the answer could be yes, he can do that, but he never would because he would be limiting his powers and that would be ungodly

So He can't and still be the same God?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

So He can't and still be the same God?

eace: Peace!

Do you think a baby should study medecine when its born? Then why should we attempt to understand GOD! We should just obey him from the proof his given.

eace:

​

 

[Ayesha Rana]

Well this is an argument I do not care to have, but surely if it is unGodly, He cannot do it because that would be a contradiction?



So He can't and still be the same God?

God can do anything. He just chooses not to cos he doesn't want to. He tells us He will not do some things (like send another prophet). God can send another prophet if He wants to but He doesn't want to and knows He will not and He has told us so. Just cos He doesn't want to do something and knows that He won't, doesn't mean that He can't.

 

[------]

HeiGou can u not ignore my post above please.

 

[Ayesha Rana]

We are humans after all and God has left some things out of our understanding for his own reasons. We have no right to question him and if we don't understand we should say Allahu'Alam(Allah knows best) which is also an aspect of knowledge.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

HeiGou God could send another Prophet IF he wants to but the fact is that Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of the prophets meaning no more Prophets will come.

Yes this pretty much explains it, no-one should expect God to do that which he has decreed not to!

​

 

[Soldier2000]

Heigou-

Well again, God, if He existed, would be beyond our understanding and so there is no logical answer to that question.

Heigou, the reason why there is no logical answer to the question is because you have created question which is designed to complement your own answer?

I have not created this thread to win the debates Heigou, Just wanted simple answers to my question, and ultimately to understand atheism

My question was if God existed would he send down revelations, not comprehending the source of the revelation?

In a nutshell Your answer to my question

If God existed would he send down revelations was

No-

Your reason

Because God is incomprehensible, beyond our logic

In what way does God being incomprehensible and beyond our logic prevents him from sending down comprehensible revelations to the rational mind?

If god existed then one of the attributes of and God would be all knowing, he is well acquainted to what is and what is not comprehensible to his creation- and if he chose to send down revelation to Guide Mankind and you believe in an all Good creator, you will have to admit the revelations would have to be in-synch with the rational mind!

Let me clarify the question

If you believed in the existence All-Good Creator, is it comprehensible that he would send down revelations/Guidance and not abandon His creation to turmoil and confusion ?

Why would He ot forsee problems before they occurred? I never get that constantly sending Revelations either

We can discuss the need for the “constantly” sending revelations in another post later inshiallah-

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

eace: Peace!

I believe perception of some people may be flawed! What you see as the absence of God all around you many see as his fruits and fruitions, of his will! Truth is evidence is all around, its just how you concieve that evidence which matters. For example look at how an ant colonises around, how do a million ants act as one group and how is it they all know there task from the instant there born? How is soldier ants distinguished from normal ants? Just a thought

eace: Peace!​

Root please allow me to know what you make of this , very interested to hear.

 

[IceQueen~]

Root please allow me to know what you make of this , very interested to hear.

termites too! and bees-how do they make their nest so perfectly hexagonal without rulers and calculators-and beevers- how did they know that the best shape for dams is semi-circle shape?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

termites too! and bees-how do they make their nest so perfectly hexagonal without rulers and calculators-and beevers- how did they know that the best shape for dams is semi-circle shape?

mashAllah. Alhamdullilah. Allahu akbar.

​

 

[HeiGou]

Well again, God, if He existed, would be beyond our understanding and so there is no logical answer to that question.

Heigou, the reason why there is no logical answer to the question is because you have created question which is designed to complement your own answer?

How did I do that given it was your question?

I have not created this thread to win the debates Heigou, Just wanted simple answers to my question, and ultimately to understand atheism

Surely atheism is not hard, and besides, atheism comes in so many different varieties, how could you understand them all?

My question was if God existed would he send down revelations, not comprehending the source of the revelation?

But if He exists He has His reasons which we do not understand. This is Monotheism 101.

In a nutshell Your answer to my question

If God existed would he send down revelations was

No-

Your reason

Because God is incomprehensible, beyond our logic

In what way does God being incomprehensible and beyond our logic prevents him from sending down comprehensible revelations to the rational mind?

That was not my answer. My answer comes in several parts.

Part 1. The question is flawed because God is Unknowable and there is no way for us to know what He would or would not do.

Part 2. Assuming that we accept that God does things for reasons we do understand (for which there is no basis: see Part 1 above) then there is no logical reason for a Divine Being to send down Revelation. The other option is available to Him: building better humans or just letting us get on with it.

If god existed then one of the attributes of and God would be all knowing, he is well acquainted to what is and what is not comprehensible to his creation- and if he chose to send down revelation to Guide Mankind and you believe in an all Good creator, you will have to admit the revelations would have to be in-synch with the rational mind!

Why? They would have to be in-synch with God's mind, but as that Mind is essentially unknowable to us mere mortals, we would have to accept His Rules without questions or thinking too much about them. It would not matter why pork, for instance, was banned. It is banned. I see no reason why His revelations would have to be logical and rational at all.

Let me clarify the question

If you believed in the existence All-Good Creator, is it comprehensible that he would send down revelations/Guidance and not abandon His creation to turmoil and confusion ?

It is possible, but I do not think it is likely. What logical reason would He have to choose that option and not any others?

 

[HeiGou]

I believe perception of some people may be flawed! What you see as the absence of God all around you many see as his fruits and fruitions, of his will! Truth is evidence is all around, its just how you concieve that evidence which matters. For example look at how an ant colonises around, how do a million ants act as one group and how is it they all know there task from the instant there born? How is soldier ants distinguished from normal ants? Just a thought

But we can explain, pretty much, what ants do and why without God. And it comes down to their genes and evolution. It is true that ants seem to know a few simple tasks when they are born, but those seem to come down to simple rules which are easy to follow - they just seem to produce complex behaviour. Soldier ants are distinguished from worker ants by genes and by upbringing.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

But we can explain, pretty much, what ants do and why without God. And it comes down to their genes and evolution. It is true that ants seem to know a few simple tasks when they are born, but those seem to come down to simple rules which are easy to follow - they just seem to produce complex behaviour. Soldier ants are distinguished from worker ants by genes and by upbringing.

eace:

I find it impossible to believe that such an amazing thing can happen completely by chance. Can you by chance pik out a red marble out of a gigantic jar containing 999 million blue marbles?

eace:
​

 

[root]

Abd'Majid - I believe perception of some people may be flawed! What you see as the absence of God all around you many see as his fruits and fruitions, of his will! Truth is evidence is all around, its just how you concieve that evidence which matters.

To me this means more precisely how I interprit the scientific data.

For example look at how an ant colonises around, how do a million ants act as one group and how is it they all know there task from the instant there born? How is soldier ants distinguished from normal ants? Just a thought

if one believes "behaviour" and "genes" are seperate entities you will find yourself flirting outside our known understanding of such. Your "Ant's" have evolved to be the way they are and are controlled by thier genes. Jut like the mechanism of "how does a skin cell know it is a skin cell". It's behaviour is intructed within it's gene.

An example of why ants are doing what they are doing to my mind mirrors the study of the beaver please allow me to explain.

A beaver was at birth denied access to "beaver behaviour" when it became an adult it was moved and held in isolation, an empty room with four walls. Within a few days the said beaver started doing what beavers do, it started building a damn. It mimicked getting mud and debri and built a dam that must wholly have been constructed in it's mind, it spent most of it's time building it's very own Damn. Deprived of any raw material and any flowing water the Beaver acted on pure "instictive" action which is believed to be genticly inherited since the best beaver damn species were the one's who reproduced. A beaver, like the ant does not need instructions on how to build a damn or a home, they don't need instructions on what role they must fulfil it's all handed to them at the moment they are concieved when the genes of the parents lay in genes most of the characteristics and instincts for the new life.....

genes, don't just seem to give instructions on the design of a species, it lays fundamental foundations of character and instinctive behaviour which it is supected like the form of a species adapts and changes so to can the characteristics of the instinctive behaviour. Good damn beuilding skills appear in the beaver at a genetic level, over time this instinctive skill is passed onto subsequent generations evoultion denies the "not so good damn builders" because they cannot survive as well. Each and every species on this planet is in the business of survival which is why I don't like the term "intermediate" or between species. Every intermediate species by this concept suggest that each and every living species actually is an intermediate, we just never relised that. Half a wing is not plausable is it?

 

[------]

HeiGou God could send another Prophet IF he wants to but the fact is that Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of the prophets meaning no more Prophets will come.

How about looking at my post HeiGou?