If God existed…Question to an atheist! first of many to follow

[ranma1/2]

Not really. All I wanted to know was whether a blind man can see the world around him. If he cannot, then that is only due to his own blindness, not because the world itself doesn't exist. It's really that simple. Either you're blind or you can see. There is no shade of gray between that.

Assuming your going with the idea that others see evidence of god.
Imagine what a blind man should think if one person says what they see is a bannana, another sees an elephant, another a tree, another a painting, and hundreds of others see something else. Why should this blind man believe what these hundreds of others see? How can he know that they actually see and arent deluded? What if these poeple have a tendency to see something depending on where they were born?

Now a blind man may ask for evidene. Perhaps he can use other senses such as touch and hearing and smell. And if this tree or elephant is not detectable by anymeans but only by these individuals but not by others ?

So science may be the blind man and like the blind man it uses what it can and others may claim sight but all disagree on what they see.

 

[Muhammad]

and Greetings,

I would suggest we go back to the topic of the existence of God and leave aside the one on Qur'anic miracles, since we have a number of threads on this.

As a reminder, we must remember that often some people interpret verses that don't have any scientific references and extract meanings that go against the intent of a verse. So it should be distinguished that while there are those with little knowledge of the interpretation of the Qur'an reading in scientific facts where they do not exist, there is a proper methodology that can be followed in order to extract examples of such verses, and it is these that we should focus on.

Please remember to avoid insulting other members as it does not assist a healthy discussion in any way.

Peace.

 

[Trumble]

EDIT: Deleted further to Muhammed's post.

 

[جوري]

repeat

 

[جوري]

Actually I was a keen amateur astronomer for over twenty years

Good for you!

and was perfectly well aware of how such photographs are created

That has certainly proven itself handy-- can you recognize A rose by any other name/er color?-- surely a well read connoisseur such as your person can recognize the name The Rosette Nebula (NGC2237) even if more dazzling colors are used to enahnce the image?

--

-- take it out with NASA for calling it the Rosette Nebula-- still won't change the fact of the matter ( looks like a rose in black and white or in color) -- maybe you can stop feeling so smug now?

I have a couple of rather splendid coffee-table books full of them.

I am sure that makes for a great ice breaker!

I provided the article merely to back up what I said

ok

(the general form here, as an expert on debate such as yourself should know); it is a particularly reputable and knowledgeable newsgroup inhabited by people who are fully aware what they are talking about.

I am so glad.. why not spend more time fostering learning over there?

Had you bothered to check the actual quote it is from the Times newspaper and itself quotes NASA scientists themselves. The facts presented, far from being "made up", are not remotely disputed.

I have read the source... it still wouldn't change the fact that it is a rosette nebula and so named by NASA for what it resmbles -- Again since repetitions might prove good for you --
can you recognize this

to mean the exact thing as this?

? even if we made the colores more robust?

If they are inconvenient to those desperate, for some reason still completely beyond my comprehension, to prove the Qur'an is a hotbed of scientific knowledge, that's just tough. That is quite simply how such images are created - ALL of them. There is no conspiracy. I could provide a list of sources if you really insist?

This isn't the intended purpose of my quotes... in fact had you read the entire posts instead of taking the excerpt to your liking you'd have learned that already.. Are you threatening us with your sources? go ahead post them to your heart's content.. and calm down a little man I get this image of you

whenever I read one of your numerous monotonous posts...

Of course I looked up Offa and A'ad and Thamud; as you and everybody else did.

Those who post of a topic don't need to look it up-- they know about it... they have come across it in history or from the Quran ... They don't need the ever handy wiki to debunk something or to offer the usual snide subjective reviews.. all armed with "sources"

It is hard to assess a story unless you establish basic facts,

Indeed one wonders where you get your "facts"? try borrowing books from the library under the history or religion section for a change instead of various blogs.. I can honestly tell you-- you only waste my time (I don't learn from you) I am mildly annoyed at best with you popping every where-- you only lead yourself astray with your homely understanding of what is being presented!

which requires a little research, and I make no claim to know much about anything.

Agreed

I would point out that my comments on the "lost cities" were based purely on what was in thread already, and obvious deductions regarding the obvious fact that what is lost now may not have have been then, as indicated by the Bedouin tales that are still around.

I don't understand what that means or how it relates considering that is your own subjective deduction on whether or not it was lost! it was a matter of non-verfiable fiction before its discovery and of course afterwards (oh.. all the bedouins knew about it) Master of hyperbole--... your interpretations of everything presented you comes across as Excuses (not nearly as exciting as the X files) -- and have come to lose all meaning over time

I am very sorry that you have to resort to puerile abuse simply because I demonstrated that this particular Qur'anic 'miracle' was complete tosh.

You really haven't proven anything with your post----any more than you have that the big dipper is a bunch of haphazardly arranged stars with no big dipper pattern... Again--read and look at what is posted above

I won't bother with dismantling the 'relativity' nonsense as well

lol pls go ahead! I am sure it will make for good entertainment!

as that would clearly meet the same response.

one would wonder why you exert so much effort then?

If you insist on unthinkingly presenting such Yahya-esque rubbish without checking your facts you should learn to accept the inevitable consequences in good grace.

The trumblesque rubbish is just as non-presentable-- yet somehow we tolerate you!

As it stands you not only make yourself look foolish, but to be brutally honest you make your religion look foolish.

seems like a one trumble effort--I'd hardly speak of my religion looking foolish knowing what I know of yours. You have heard of the adage of not throwing people with rocks if your house is made of glass? Try applying it here.

Some of the Quran'ic 'miracles' are indeed quite interesting and intriguing including the "internal waves" of the sea interpretation and that high altitude dyspepsia (yes, I had to look that up, too) you are so fond of. It genuinely baffles me why someone of your undoubted intelligence doesn't stick with those rather than the uninformed ravings of Yahya and "answering-Christianity".

Again this wasn't intended as a talk of miracles-- seems like you wish to exercise some catharsis from some previous posts where you didn't get to give us a mile's fill of your psycho babble thus leaving you with residual resentment that you wish to purge out here?... no where did I mention "miracle" in my previous reply-- I did however state as per Quran that 6 days by G-D's measure isn't subject to our laws of physics.. One would wonder however, why Yahya almost inspires you to have grand mal seizure that you cause you to become rabid with your replies...

 

[Trumble]

Let's try a source you might like, answering-Christianity.com

There are five translations of the Qur'an there;

Pickthall:
"And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh rosy like red hide -"

Khalifa:
"When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint."

Palmer:
"And when the heaven is rent asunder and become rosy red - (melting) like grease!"

Sale:
"And when the heaven shall be rent in sunder, and shall become [red as] a rose, [and shall melt] like ointment:"

Rodwell:
"When the Heaven shall be cleft asunder, and become rose red, like stained leather:"

In all of those cases bar Sale the rose reference is clearly to colour, not shape, and Sale does not state it explicitly. Even, by even the most liberal 'interpretation' it was extended to include shape that it is ONE nebula that has a vaguely rose-like shape. OK, two, the Cats-eye nebula also vaguely resembles a rose. As well as a cats-eye. But what about the thousands (or hundreds of thousands) that look nothing like one? Does the Qur'an describe heaven as looking like a crab? Or a horse-head? Or a ring? Or an eagle? Or a witch's head?

The colour, as I have made clear, could be red. Or white. Or blue. Or green. Or anything you like. In the case of the Cats Eye nebula - the one usually claimed to actually resemble a rose - all of what you see was actually photographed in the x-ray and infra-red spectrums; the colouring is totally artificial. And even if you still refuse to accept any of that the verse clearly replies to 'heaven' as whole, not tiny pieces of it.

grand mal seizure that you cause you to become rabid with your replies..

Have you read your own?


Sorry Muhammed, couldn't restrain myself. I won't post again.

 

[جوري]

In all of those cases bar Sale the rose reference is clearly to colour, not shape.

lol-- before you get too happy there-- (No red mentioned)-- I could almost see you needing an end table for your lower jaw!
let's have a look shall we...using the Arabic dictionary (sakhr) included at the bottom...

فَإِذَا انشَقَّتِ السَّمَاء فَكَانَتْ وَرْدَةً كَالدِّهَانِ {37}​

*****

Dictionaries - القواميس

Arabic - English

إِذَا​

حــــــــــــرف أَداةُ شَرْط
if , when

قَّ فــــعــــــــل اِنْفَصَلَ عَنْ , خَرَجَ عَلَى
separate from
اِنْفَلَعَ , تَصَدَّعَ
rift , split , cleave , crash , crack , fissure , rive , be rimose , be fissured , be or become broken , be burst (open) , be cleft , be or become cleft , burst open , break open , be rifted

سماء اســــــــــــم ما يُشَاهَدُ فَوْقَ الأَرْضِ كَقُبَّةٍ زَرْقاء
firmament , empyrean , sky


Arabic - English
كانَ فــــعــــــــل حَدَثَ
let it be(done) , be , was , were
كَان : فِي التَّصْرِيفِ الثَّالِث
been


Arabic - English

وَرْدَة​

اســــــــــــم زَهْرَة
bloom , blossom , rose , flower


Dictionaries - القواميس

Arabic - English

دِهَان​

اســــــــــــم طِلَاء
paint , facing , wash , coat , varnish , film , coating
مَرْهَم
ointment , liniment , salve , unguent , unction , cream

دِهَان مـــصــــــدر طَلْي , دَهْن
overlaying , varnishing , smearing , overlay , facing , anointing , anointment , coat , coating , daubing , embrocation , painting
مُدَاهَنَة
flattery , toadyism , blandishment , cajolery , adulation , dissemblance , currying favor with , fawning , lip service , sweet talk , fawning on , compliance

دَهَّان اســــــــــــم الذي يَدْهُن
painter , house painter

when the heaven splits asunder it becomes like a coated/annointed rose-- (fa'beay ala'a rabikouma tokaziban) فَبِأَيِّ آلَاء رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ which of your lord's signs/favours do you wish to deny? is the proceeding verse... feel free to also stick in in the dictionary word for word!
one sign/favor-- not a cascade of miracles... (the Quran has beautiful poetic language) sure other nebulas exist... this is the one mentioned!


here is Sakhr dictionary-- I am sure you are familiar with cutting and pasting seeing all your handy posts-- just stick it in there word by word and see what comes up--- http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&Sub=%df%f3%c7%e1%cf%f8%f6%e5%f3%c7%e4%f6
I think you'd be better off arguing this with someone who wasn't a native Arabic speaker or a bit more timid than my person!

prophet Mohammed could not have known of such a nebula then and it was one of the things mentioned we should look for in the cosmos and reflect upon-- Along with the other things that you seem to have a handy dandy explanation for-- geography/geology/embryology/running a state/ laws of inheritance and marriage/ physiology of high altitude hypoxia/ lost cities.. you'd think he would have lived like a rich king?---
-- we have side tracked long enough--maybe we can get back to original post... if you have nothing more to dance about?

I won't post again.

ah--if only I could believe it!..that would be a trumble miracle right there... ..

last note: of course I read my post.. I wrote it .. :rollseyes

peace!

 

[Pygoscelis]

"Which is more likely": That there's really this angry god out there who would actually behave that way, or it's really in the religion’s interest to establish a social dynamic where the threat of eternal torment is the outcome for not joining in that religion and btw supporting it financially. What's more likely, man needs a savior for being human, or the religion, an entity of sweeping power for more than a thousand years, needs to convince me I need them and only them?"

This is really well put point, but I don't think it one that most believers will realize or appreciate.

I can do nothing about such a god who would condemn me for such a trivial issue, nor can I do anything about the fact (my term) that after death it's nothing but a dreamless sleep. Both are equally depressing, hopeless, and bleak, and there's a marginal difference between condemning most people who ever existed to an eternity of despair versus everyone being condemned to an eternity of nothingness.

Here I disagree. The atheist who believes that death is nothingness has literally nothing to fear. It isn't like you'll be floating in some dark space for eternity. There will be no you at all. It will feel exactly as it felt during the millions of years before you were born. So that isn't depressing, hopeless or bleak. It isn't joyous either mind you. It simply isn't anything.

 

[جوري]

Here I disagree. The atheist who believes that death is nothingness has literally nothing to fear. It isn't like you'll be floating in some dark space for eternity. There will be no you at all. It will feel exactly as it felt during the millions of years before you were born. So that isn't depressing, hopeless or bleak. It isn't joyous either mind you. It simply isn't anything.

How so very sad... no two snow flakes share the same design each unique -- yet here you have lumped humanity into a heap of meaningless nothing-- and concluded that to exist or not --it is ultimately for waste (like being erased)... to live for 2 months or to a ripe old age, to have been kind, or to have been wicked as equal...
let's all delight in our ignorance until such a day when things become more apparent for all of us (one way or the other)

peace!

 

[Pygoscelis]

How so very sad... no two snow flakes share the same design each unique -- yet here you have lumped humanity into a heap of meaningless nothing--

huh? I find a lot of meaning in my life. That it will someday be gone and I won't exist to look back on it doesn't depreciate that meaning in any way.

let's all delight in our ignorance until such a day when things become more apparent for all of us (one way or the other)

Sure. There are many things you don't know yet, and some you may never know. It isn't a weakness to admit that, and it isn't something to be upset about. It certainly isn't cause to make answers up just so you can "know" them.

peace!

Sounds like a rapper. Peace out dude! :coolious: Word.

 

[ranma1/2]

huh? I find a lot of meaning in my life. That it will someday be gone and I won't exist to look back on it doesn't depreciate that meaning in any way.

...

I have always found the point of view that if life ends and then there isnothing being sad kind of funny.

Its like asking if you order a pizza and you know once you eat it it is gone why order pizza. Because its the experience.. Sure the pizza eventually disappears but eatingit was fun.

 

[Silver Pearl]

This is really well put point, but I don't think it one that most believers will realize or appreciate.



Here I disagree. The atheist who believes that death is nothingness has literally nothing to fear. It isn't like you'll be floating in some dark space for eternity. There will be no you at all. It will feel exactly as it felt during the millions of years before you were born. So that isn't depressing, hopeless or bleak. It isn't joyous either mind you. It simply isn't anything.

Greetings,

Your statement reminded me of a poem written by Rossetti called Cobwebs, although she was a devote anglican, her poems seemed sometimes too absorbed in this world of nothingness, this realm of eternal emptiness. It seems a tad bit far-fetched (and this is an understatement) that evolution could occur with such stability to the extent that voila, today everything is perfect, the air is perfect for living. If only everything could sort out itself out so magically like this I wouldn't ever need to waste my time on studying, perhaps then everything could just voila happen. You can't bargain on the concept of no life after death, way too many unrealible chance.

Surely if life had no purpose why bother in doing anything properly? Why conform to moral conduct? Why abide by laws? Surely everything should just be excused because after this we will be greeted by a pool of....well according to atheists....nothingness.

 

[جوري]

Greetings,

Your statement reminded me of a poem written by Rossetti called Cobwebs, although she was a devote anglican, her poems seemed sometimes too absorbed in this world of nothingness, this realm of eternal emptiness. It seems a tad bit far-fetched (and this is an understatement) that evolution could occur with such stability to the extent that voila, today everything is perfect, the air is perfect for living. If only everything could sort out itself out so magically like this I wouldn't ever need to waste my time on studying, perhaps then everything could just voila happen. You can't bargain on the concept of no life after death, way too many unrealible chance.

Surely if life had no purpose why bother in doing anything properly? Why conform to moral conduct? Why abide by laws? Surely everything should just be excused because after this we will be greeted by a pool of....well according to atheists....nothingness.

You know the Adage that states "G-D is in the details"-- I think once people search deeply in any scientific field (biochemistry, physiology, Anatomy, astronomy, pathology, embryology--etc) it will astound them how much can go wrong that doesn't-- Or how much goes on period! Every biochemical process, anatomical or physiological is driven to follow a specific plan-- I am through talking about the minute details that occur in each subject-- even on a superficial level or as limited to the human body, since it seems to fall on deaf ears and blind eyes.

If people are happy with simpleton like conclusions of (Energy having come out of no where to develop thousands-- millions -- no, not even (billions) of perfect detailed events on a cellular, global and universal level-- further giving "sentience" and the "will" to compete and differentiation -- then so be it... It makes me chuckle heartily-- and I find it as ludicrous--as I am sure the aspect of an engineer having set it all in motion is to them.

One day we'll have a chance to look at truth!-- I have no reservations on Atheists holding on to whatever beliefs/ or lack thereof... from the most eloquent I have read in arguing against creation the (Zen of Zero) to (Energy Patterns)-- to those who don't even give it a thought at all... It makes no difference to me one way or the other... when it comes down to it, whatever explanation they give to "creation" even if in the guise of science still boils down to a belief--- yet they come all smug and mocking to those who give thanks to a divine being for having set it all in motion-- deeming them un-scientific or Archaic-- yet they are none the wiser.. Got to wonder what they put so much effort in disproving something they don't believe in anyway?.. seems a little desperate---just live your life away from those who do and be happy in the moment!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Greetings,

You can't bargain on the concept of no life after death, way too many unrealible chance.

This sounds like pascal's wager yet again. Its flawed in many ways, so many books have been written about it. We could do another thread on it if you would like, but its been done extensively here already, so a search should bring something up to satisfy your immediate curiousity.

Surely if life had no purpose why bother in doing anything properly? Why conform to moral conduct? Why abide by laws?

If your belief in the afterlife is the only thing that keeps you moral and obeying laws, if you'd be out there raping and murdering everybody without your belief in the afterlife (which I very much doubt is true), then I dearly hope you never lose your faith. I'd also hope a person with such a view would find counselling quickly, for they would be a textbook sociopath.

 

[جوري]

If I strip you of any fear or reprimand, consequence to being caught, then please tell me what it is that would hold you back from committing a crime?

What would keep you from clubbing some guy and stealing his car and raping his wife?... that moral "conscientiousness" I hope we all possess? if you call it instinctive you are already admitting that someone has planted moral seeds in you, in which case you can't deny that whatever or whomever, gave you "sentience" has also enabled you to distinguish what is morally acceptable on a conscious level-- and if you call it just good common sense, then I'd really wonder what would keep you from committing the perfect crime if you knew you'd get away with it?-- at least as far as this world is concerned.

peace!

 

[Gator]

Surely if life had no purpose why bother in doing anything properly? Why conform to moral conduct? Why abide by laws? Surely everything should just be excused because after this we will be greeted by a pool of....well according to atheists....nothingness.

I believe most people do things properly because there are benefits to living in society. Society punishes those that don't. Their are many different types of people though.

There are those that have no urges to rape and kill (or are able to suppress those urges under extreme circumstances) and follow societies rules because its natural to them.

Then there are those that have urges to rape and kill, but are able to suppress them because they find living in society better.

There are those that can't suppress those urges and they either get away with it or go to prison (removed from society).

Though not comprehensive and with many ranges in each category, this is how I think society functions without and all-knowing God looking down.

Why would everything be excused. If I see someone doing something I think deserves punishment by society, I would do something about it.

Thanks.

 

[Philosopher]

Atheists:

Where did energy come from??

 

[Pygoscelis]

If I strip you of any fear or reprimand, consequence to being caught, then please tell me what it is that would hold you back from committing a crime?

Ethics. Empathy. Socialization. Self interest too.

Do you honestly feel that if I stripped you of your god belief and you thought you could get away with it, you'd be out there clubbing people over the back of their heads and taking their cars? You'd be raping women? Murdering people who upset you?

I really don't think you would. And if you seriously consider it I think you'll agree. If you didn't you'd be sociopath, plain and simple.

if you call it instinctive you are already admitting that someone has planted moral seeds in you

Apparently you're not able to consider that perhaps empathy is inate within us but wasn't "planted by a sentient being". Well I'm afraid this is very likely the case. And it isn't just in us. Its in other social animals too, including wolves, dolphins, chimps. Even some insects will sacrifice themselves to protect their communities.

Then there is simple self interest, as noted in the post above, which also leads us to follow most moral rules. We're discouraged from killing not only because of empathy (seeing ourselves in our potential victims) but also because we don't want to be killed ourselves so we push for security measures and laws.

Then there is socialization and social programming, and not just the religious variety. Most people's parents will teach them at a young age not to steal and not to lie. They usually carry that into adulthood and continue to associate those things as being imorral (regardless of the sympathy or self interest factors above and regardless of god belief.)

Social programming can also work against the two above mentioned factors though as well. But it takes a lot of programming actually to completely push self interest and empathy aside, usually it takes religion. Without religion it is hard (though not impossible) to get people to do things like suicide bombings (an example of going directly against one's self interest (killing oneself) and one's sense of empathy (killing others))

The statement is frequently made theists, that without a God there can be no morality. I'm not saying this is your statement exactly, but it seems related. It is offensive and ignorant.

But more importantly it is patently false. If it were true then atheists would have far higher crime rates and a disproportionately high incarceration rate. The opposite is actually what you find in most reports.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Atheists:

Where did energy come from??

I don't know. You don't either. I can admit it. Can you?

 

[Gator]

Atheists:

Where did energy come from??

I don't know.