If God existed…Question to an atheist! first of many to follow

[IbnAbdulHakim]

absolutely. belief in non-god-ness is still a belief. so yes, i regard atheism as a religion. in fact, i have even had atheists try to convert me!

eace:

lol thats quite funny and interesting, personally i wud feel meaningless and empty wivout islam

eace:
​

 

[root]

Snakelegs - absolutely. belief in non-god-ness is still a belief. so yes, i regard atheism as a religion. in fact, i have even had atheists try to convert me!

I agree with CZGibson,

I am particulary interested in how I subscribed to this so called religion (atheism) on the sole basis I believe God does not exist. By rejecting a faith how am I then on automatic opt in status as a so called religous atheist

But if atheism is a religion, what are its rituals? Where are its places of worship? What is an atheist prayer like? What are atheism's moral teachings and rulings?

I quite agree with you and would add to this further by saying that all 2religions" subscribe to a "God". So it's ironic religous people call atheism a religion. Who is our god?

"Atheism is religion." When you hear a statement like this, it often comes form a person who has actually done little research or thinking about either Atheism or religion. Most people rarely study or investigate their own religious beliefs, assuming they have any. If they are born in a predominately Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Jewish culture, they will probably reflect the religious beliefs of that society.

Nearly every dictionary will define religion as "belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed a worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe. The definition of all other terms linked to religion employ much the same language -- church, monastery, priest. They are all part of a religious-language universe or "game" that has little to do with Atheism.

There cannot be an Atheist "Church", or an Atheist "priest" anymore than there could be an Atheist "god."

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I agree with CZGibson,

I am particulary interested in how I subscribed to this so called religion (atheism) on the sole basis I believe God does not exist.

eace:

im gettin dejavu, didnt this happen b4? lol

eace:
​

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

On-topic please.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

On-topic please.

Apologies - I suppose us atheists are waiting for the next of the many questions to follow.

Peace

 

[Philosopher]

Greetings,


Apologies - I suppose us atheists are waiting for the next of the many questions to follow.

Peace

Do you think evolution was by chance or was it guided?

 

[Trumble]

Do you think evolution was by chance or was it guided?

I can consider the possibility that the mechanism of evolution was designed. As that design, by God presumably, must have been perfect by definition there could be no need for subsequent guidance, addition or indeed any sort of tweaking whatsoever. The idea makes no sense... the initial design would achieve what it was designed to achieve without the need for further intervention.

 

[ranma1/2]

I know that you don’t believe in the existence of God, but in order to deny something you would have to have some idea of that something-

For example in order to deny that an apple is an orange, you would need to have some idea of what an apple is and what an orange is-

In the same sense in order to deny the existence of God, you would need to have some idea what God is, and the consequences of his existence!

In order to gather information from an atheist on the latter I would like to ask them

If God existed do you believe that it’s only logical he will send down revelations to mankind!

Well i guess you would have to define god. However i dont see any reason why a creator would give a fig about us specifically. If it did I would expect it to do it without any confusion if it mattered to it.

 

[ranma1/2]

using the Dr Zakir Naik approach,

Yes God can send another Prophet if he wanted, but he won't, because he would contradict himself and that would be ungodly so he would not do it

Similar to the question of can God eat or become human, the answer could be yes, he can do that, but he never would because he would be limiting his powers and that would be ungodly

ok i know this is an old posts but it seems that if he has made it so he cant contradict himself then he is limiting himself. If he made a mistake and he cant correct it then he is limiting himself.

 

[islamirama]

ok i know this is an old posts but it seems that if he has made it so he cant contradict himself then he is limiting himself. If he made a mistake and he cant correct it then he is limiting himself.

Dr Zakir Naik is ---, mainstream scholars had to correct him and his rulings number of times. No need to go to the weakest link that is not reliable for good info.

btw, anymore ranma coming out after season 7?

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

My honest opinion is if God existed the evidence would be quite easy to find and all around us, unfortunately it just is not.

Just wondering, is it possible for a blind man to see the world around him even if the evidences are all around him and he is unable to see only because of his own blindness?

 

[جوري]

That’s a philosophical question that tends to avoid the requirement for supporting your argument with fact and precision..

How do you apply fact and precision to say your person having a headache? If you presented to the hospital (where scientists congregate) stating you have an occipital or temporal headache the worst you have ever experienced --how can any scientist support your view? it is a subjective report --and they will have to treat you in accordance to symptoms that you profess to, as there is no test to quantify or measure what you are feeling-- no ( headache-O-Meter)!... Though they will not doubt that you are experiencing a headache and will treat you accordingly---unless you are suffering from some type of factitious disorder like Munchausen and just need constant attention! (possible) , they couldn't tell just by looking at you if you are faking it, or really suffering from it! What do you know even science can sometimes miss the fact and precision!

Let me answer your question with another philosophical question.

The only "condemning aspect" of my life is the theistic based idea that as an imperfect being I deserve Hell by default. I'm fairly honest, I work hard, I love my friends and family, etc.-- in short, I'm your average person who lives a quiet life dealing with life's challenges. I cannot imagine rating eternal torment because I don't acquiesce to the Christian / Islamic- defined salvation program. I ask myself:.

and you are entitled to believe that.. no one is forcing religion on you!

"Which is more likely": That there's really this angry god out there who would actually behave that way, or it's really in the religion’s interest to establish a social dynamic where the threat of eternal torment is the outcome for not joining in that religion and btw supporting it financially. What's more likely, man needs a savior for being human, or the religion, an entity of sweeping power for more than a thousand years, needs to convince me I need them and only them?".

Your view of religion is sophomoric as is your view of Muslims in general-- the whole concept of life and death isn't about torment or an angry G-D -- so much as it is about justice!... if you find that someone living up to 87, having committed all sorts of sins, crimes and murder and at the end just lay there in a wooden box to be equated with someone who lived quite a charitable life and died by some reckless driver at the tender age of 24 & to just the same lay there in a wooden box (with no means of justice established)-- on your noted account that religion exists only to boast the ego of a creator as you so describe or as means of establishing some sort of social dynamics using rewards and punishment then so be it..
That is again your subjective view!

I think the answer is really obvious and simple.
If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such a god who would condemn me for such a trivial issue, nor can I do anything about the fact (my term) that after death it's nothing but a dreamless sleep. Both are equally depressing, hopeless, and bleak, and there's a marginal difference between condemning most people who ever existed to an eternity of despair versus everyone being condemned to an eternity of nothingness. It's hopeless because if such a god exists, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment..

What are we to make of this? You have drawn satisfaction out of a simplistic conclusion that is all! but I am afraid isn't as obvious or as simple as all that!

Now, to address your comment:

It is not necessary for scientists to prove that design is not required for the complexity we see in nature. NONE of the scientific theories that explain natural phenomena make appeals to an unseen designer..

Oh how come? Where did
glycolysis
the Krebs Cycle
oxidative phosphorylation
Cori cycle
lysosomal degradation
nerve myelination
Kidney filtration
Apneustic and pneumotaxic centrs
liver chemical detoxification
Molecular .. translation, transcription, Gene expression...
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjexZ88wIno&mode=related&search=[/media]
just to name a few NEGLIGIBLE amount of events that occur flawlessly everyday come from? What drives them to happen? Who set them in motion?
How did evolution produce these phenomenal events and perfect occurrences? Why do they occur the same way every time? Why not a glob of goo with every attempt instead of perfect humans or perfect elephants? or perfect whatever? every organ and every cell to differentiate into what it is meant to and perform its proper function? How is it that though every cell in the body carries the exact genetic information yet a beta cell produces insulin while a fibroblast produces collagen? Actually I'd like an intelligent answer to that.. not one that comes from your cut and paste articles -- sharing genetics with a banana by way of "common ancestry" hardly excludes the presence of an engineer to set it all into motion!

If you or any I.D.er's have evidence that something shows signs of being designed (something that could not have arisen naturally) please come forward with it. To date, no one has. You are trying to shift the burden of proof. Intelligent Design advocates are the ones introducing supernatural forces... they are the ones who must substantiate their incredible claims. The whole "irreducibly complex" argument is deeply flawed. Scientists do not "take it on faith" that the natural answers are there... that is all they have evidence of. And those answers do very well..

Show us how the small list above happened naturally then, and we'll consider neglecting the G-D concept.. posing a question and answering it.. or stating otherwise it is deeply flawed, is really the coward's way out...
I also don't think you can speak for scientists... unless you live in some sort of bubble and make up these imaginary hypothetical of what you think a scientist would say not every scientist is an atheists or subscribes him or herself to the "G-D-Delusion"-- some are the most religious human beings that exist..... frankly just seeing your various posts I can tell you subscribe to very linear style of thinking -- you are no scholar you are just filled to the brim with mindless drivel and the occasional drive by shooting with your BB gun...

appeal only to emotion and fear.

I believe indeed that you are very afraid and looking for any form of validation... petty you should seek it on a forum.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

That’s a philosophical question that tends to avoid the requirement for supporting your argument with fact and precision.

Not really. All I wanted to know was whether a blind man can see the world around him. If he cannot, then that is only due to his own blindness, not because the world itself doesn't exist. It's really that simple. Either you're blind or you can see. There is no shade of gray between that.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

You see, I don't need to bring proof, because there's really way too much to bring. So I say, that the problem is not a lack of proof, but the problem is that some are just too blind to see it. If you cannot see it, then it is due to your own blindness, not because a Divine Entity does not exist as you say in order to make an excuse for your own blindness.

How can one ever convince a blind person that the Sun exists if the blind person will use the fact that he 'cannot see evidence of it' as an excuse?

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Well for one starters we're Muslim which means we go by what is in the Qur'an. Here:
http://beconvinced.com/en/main.php?action=showcat&catid=03

And there's plenty more on this forum you can search for because we've been through this quite alot here. For example:
http://www.islamicboard.com/188288-post1.html

You can search for more.

 

[جوري]

This is a product of life long research and reflection (we Hope)... I think the perfect thing to do is study each (religion/ideology) at depth and draw your own conclusions-- if the Tree of Yggdrasil or the Hindu god Bhuvaneshwari seems like the most reasonable of all revelations, including the successive 5 books that attest to the same (Abrahamic) concept of creation--then by all means subscribe to it... No one should have to distil down entire doctrines or philosophies to another human being in a short paragraph --only to be received with the same condescending quip...

 

[جوري]

The top portion of your view reflects psychological and intellectual immaturity, I'll not descend to aruge your subjective opinion or how/why you arrived to them-- so I'll sweep it aside and focus on other parts that need to be addressed!

A god created existence in only 6 days, but did so in such a way to make it look immensely old and left massive clues to support that belief.

I'd like to shed light that we (Muslims) are told through the Quran that a thousand yrs for us isn't but a day by G-D's measure.. the theory of relativity already discussed in the Quran before Einstein made it famous-- yes G-D's laws aren't governed by our laws of physics nor by our sun setting or moon rising ... Any Muslim can tell you that speaking from the Noble book... So by that I hope to dispel myth that Muslims believe the world to be 6 or 7000 yrs old...evidenced in these verses
"A day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count."
(The Qur'an, 22:47)
and again
Then it will again ascend to Him on a Day whose length is a thousand years by the way you measure."
(The Qur'an, 32:5)
and
The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day whose length is fifty thousand years."
(The Qur'an, 70:4)

nebulas are also described in the Quran-- I don't see any point in their mention centuries ago-- hence the wonders of the Quran never cease!

--

"And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh ROSY LIKE RED HIDE - (The Noble Quran, 55:37)--

undoubtedly when this came down people didn't have enough abstraction to understand it.. yet here we are today--I hope you have learned something today from our centuries old book, other than the ready cut and paste ones to which you subscribe!


now let's tackle what you have stated in the name of "science"

or

Existence is natural, patterns form out of the exchange of energy

Natural? as in being in accordance with or determined by "nature"-- why didn't "nature" mandate that the sky be green instead of blue? or that we be born as cyclops?

<< why are we not born like this unfortunate being?

Why is there success in evolution vis a vis this miraculous "energy" so that every time we end up with life and in different forms -- as opposed to say rotting goo? or various badly formed beings-- why do we not cease to exist collectively and become just energy since, You don't believe that any of it is guided? I mean what is your baseline when you make measure of nature? Why so much beauty that we only seem to notice something as not "nature" like only when it comes out of "natural "order" as in the child with anencephaly posted above.. Surely you must see that there is order in the events governing our lives and the thousands of biochemical processes that go on on their own volition? ( if no order existed we'd all be born with all sorts of problems.. you wouldn't just take notice when I post an "unnatural" picture) --why (order) and (functionality) adroned with (beauty)? further -- the mother of all questions--where did this energy come from? by definitions, regarded as the capacity of a physical system to do work! ... Can energy manifest itself as a ceramic plate and appear on your dinner table?

life evolved in some places,

How did life evolve from this energy in some places?

competition for that life implemented social structures,

That is quite a leap-- you have missed a few steps-- to "compete" is to strive for something... it is a bit more if not lot more complicated than just patterns from energy forming--by some magic wand this happened-- who willed it?

sentience ignited that social structure to a more and more complicated degree.

How did this sentience come about? talk about poetic.. and why was it so directed? You are making huge strides without covering all grounds-- How and why? Also--I don't understand how you can tie this with how you've started (energy) further you didn't cover the need of this energy to became more complex?!

and allowed for technology to extend the perceptions of humans to further and further reaches, chipping away at old, perhaps poetic and elegant but nonetheless outdated beliefs created by a ruling class that knew the power of ignorance and fear in people made them vastly more controllable? .

Writing as such .. makes me believe that you are in the half way house... not fully equipped to handle science to a more abstract degree or to elaborate on what you propose-- and a shameful knowlege of history-- I don't know of one messenger who was from the ruling class short of Prophet Solomon and he didn't bring any books... the books came on Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Mohammed PBUt (read about their lives, I am sure you'll find them quite full of strife ( if not tragic)--- I can't for the life of me imagine, why they would engage in what seems to many as abject poverty, prophet Mohammed PBUH alone never slept on a full stomach three days in a row.. was ousted from Mecca and was mocked if not disowned by his people even those closest to him (i.e his uncles)-- pls familiarize yourself with history before you make these sweeping generalities-- even in the most decorated words can't hide this load of bull!

Just a side note - we see stars forming today by the way, in the Pleiades-- various stages of stars being formed are quite visible. Knowing the speed of light one can measure distances, showing billions of years is required to establish the size and distances we see..

Do these planets that form today I assume out of (gaining mass) -- form, from nothing or with material already in existence? Also, Can this exchange (form other life) other than new planets that is? like say Helminthes-- as we are to draw from previous statements that this "random energy" gave the essence of (life and sentience) -- for no apparent guided reason to some common ancestor from which all other amazing creatures have come about--

things like Bacteria-- to 17 different types of collagen to 103 different elements on the periodic table, to biochemical processes to Hollyhock for tiny humming birds to feed on.. not to mention that every time this (evolution of energy) happened it did so without error-- in complete exactness-- I can only safely assume that there was no error on the account that we exist--any remote error say in urea cycle alone as a small ex. in the following enzymatic pathways
N-Acetylglutamate Synthase (NAGS)
Carbamyl Phosphate Synthetase (CPS)
Ornithine Transcarbamylase (OTC)
Argininosuccinate Synthetase to name a few, would have led to the complete demise of the specie... but NO!--What you propose is that ranom energy had some sort of guided consciousness and direction-- for what reason ( I have no idea) to make various scientists look really good with new discoveries I suppose?. perfection--- and I am not just talking about kidneys or liver here--I am talking about every little biochemical or physiological or anatomical pathway that occurs; from glial cells in the brain to the brown fat found in new born babies for insulation-- to aorticopulmonary septum rotating about the long axis so we don't end up with transposition of the great vessels, to body organs connected in a series except for the two that need to filter at all times connected in parallel so we don't end up in a toxic coma-- all somehow guided by the nothing... pure randomness, pure perfect luck every single time it works...A never ending story type of fairy tale in the guise of science? That is remarkable man!-- talk about magical .. Am I supposed to buy that as scientific theory or as science fiction? It defies all the laws of logic and probability-- or because you said it with such authority, that I can't resist --how can I not be convinced?! Tell you what if you sprout an extra brain now from energy patterns-- I am willing to buy it--seeing how you are in desperate need of one!

When you look at the very deepest foundation of the entire doctrine, when you go to the theological reason the entire book was written, you are left with this conclusion the holy texts tell us over and over:

Ignorance is bliss.

Spoken like someone who has familiarized himself with cliff notes not even giving them a good read, and came to tackle the world -- All G-D tells us is to reflect and to establish a relationship with him-- from which you've somehow deduced what you wanted-- You are a toxic person who is seeking toxic things to foster an ailing state of mind! I am not sure why you are so angry with those who don't subscribe to your way of thinking or what you are hoping to accomplish here? you make ambiguous assertions which many see as wantonly flawed using an Appeal to Complexity -- Here is the kicker Islam isn't an infringement on science nor is science and infringement on Islam--- The Muslim empire experienced an age on enlightenment unlike that which Europe had ever see in its dark ages-- it did so on the account that religion mandated that we seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave and as far as china-- From the Quran we know G-D favors they who seek knowledge over they who sit all day in hermitage... if you'd read and reflect before you write, you wouldn't be wasting every one's time and energy like so!-- [PIE](I wonder if this energy can form itself into rose and cardamom shai)--[/PIE]
we can agree that ignorance is indeed bliss as far as you are subscribed--your sentiment is perfectly reciprocated here "what I saw was, at least to me, conjecture and grasping at straws to find something to support the conclusion"-- Read a little something other than hate website and learn some ethics on the art of a debate!

http://www.muslimheritage.com/
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/35385-setting-record-straight-miracle-islamic-science.html#post624315


Peace

 

[Trumble]

nebulas are also described in the Quran-- I don't see any point in their mention centuries ago-- hence the wonders of the Quran never cease!

--

"And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh ROSY LIKE RED HIDE - (The Noble Quran, 55:37)--

undoubtedly when this came down people didn't have enough abstraction to understand it.. yet here we are today--I hope you have learned something today from our centuries old book, other than the ready cut and paste ones to which you subscribe!

Very nice photos. Does the Qur'an tell us which color filters to use? Or the details of the mix to produce the photos?

Such images are photographic creations, they mix and match to produce the most effective results. The more cynical have even increased NASA of over-doing it order to suitably impress those who vote on their budget. Ignorance is indeed bliss. Now how about a picture of a nice purple or green one?

Forgive me a little cut n'paste

It's a merger of science, art — and marketing.


Zoltan Levay, one of Hubble's first photographic artists, describes
the production of the colorful Hubble images as a "reconstruction
process." Hubble sends its snapshots back to Earth in grainy black and
white, and then Levay and other artists at the Space Telescope Science
Institute clean up the images and digitally colorize them.


Sometimes, the colors are close to reality, but often, artistic
liberties are taken. And whenever there exists the option to choose a
color that generates an image of mind-boggling beauty over one that
yields more mundane results, the scientists are unabashed about saying
that the more aesthetically pleasing option always wins.


"It's hard to tell the story if you don't have a stunning image to
back it up," said Ray Villard, the public-relations director for the
$1.5-billion telescope. "You can go out of your way to be incredibly
accurate, but if people come away and haven't learned anything, then
what was the point?"


The point, according to some people, is that by enhancing the hues of
the universe, Levay and Hubble's other photographic artists have
inadvertently created a public misperception that the heavens are
bursting with color — an exciting, enticing, action-packed,
Technicolor cosmos worth spending billions of dollars to see more of.


Any photographer at a newspaper, including this one, would be fired
for using digital technology to substantially alter a picture. And any
scientist doctoring research data would be cast into scientific
oblivion.

Source

Something certainly "never ceases".

 

[Trumble]

Actually I was a keen amateur astronomer for over twenty years, and was perfectly well aware of how such photographs are created - I have a couple of rather splendid coffee-table books full of them. I provided the article merely to back up what I said (the general form here, as an expert on debate such as yourself should know); it is a particularly reputable and knowledgeable newsgroup inhabited by people who are fully aware what they are talking about. Had you bothered to check the actual quote it is from the Times newspaper and itself quotes NASA scientists themselves. The facts presented, far from being "made up", are not remotely disputed. If they are inconvenient to those desperate, for some reason still completely beyond my comprehension, to prove the Qur'an is a hotbed of scientific knowledge, that's just tough. That is quite simply how such images are created - ALL of them. There is no conspiracy. I could provide a list of sources if you really insist?

Of course I looked up Offa and A'ad and Thamud; as you and everybody else did. It is hard to assess a story unless you establish basic facts, which requires a little research, and I make no claim to know much about anything. I would point out that my comments on the "lost cities" were based purely on what was in thread already, and obvious deductions regarding the obvious fact that what is lost now may not have have been then, as indicated by the Bedouin tales that are still around.

I am very sorry that you have to resort to puerile abuse simply because I demonstrated that this particular Qur'anic 'miracle' was complete tosh. I won't bother with dismantling the 'relativity' nonsense as well (no, I don't need to look that up, either) as that would clearly meet the same response. If you insist on unthinkingly presenting such Yahya-esque rubbish without checking your facts you should learn to accept the inevitable consequences in good grace. As it stands you not only make yourself look foolish, but to be brutally honest you make your religion look foolish.

Some of the Quran'ic 'miracles' are indeed quite interesting and intriguing including the "internal waves" of the sea interpretation and that high altitude dyspepsia (yes, I had to look that up, too) you are so fond of. It genuinely baffles me why someone of your undoubted intelligence doesn't stick with those rather than the uninformed ravings of Yahya and "answering-Christianity".

As you say, peace.


P.S On relativity, I will leave you with this. If those verses, by some remote chance, actually did refer to relativistic events have you considered the theological and logical consequences? Trust me, it's worth a little of your valuable time

 

[جوري]

it is high altitude hypoxia not dyspepsia.--I guess that should already speak volumes of your "knowledge"? -- I don't want to get at it with you at 9 in the morning-- would rather enjoy my cup of coffee--
Your analysis doesn't cut mustard... I don't view you as an expert in any field... If I wanted a keen critical analysis I am already subscribed to JAMA. NEJM as well as the smithonians and National Geographic... your coffee table books and your 20 minute wiki dig are hardly the measure I'd go by-- lastly-- I am not bothered by how a Buddhist receives Islam.

peace!