If Jesus Was God Then...

[moujahid]

The Bible is God's Word. It has not been lost through the ages; it has just been translated differently for better understanding. There may be many different translations, but they all contain the same message.

It looks like you are not reading or watching from the same sources as the rest of the truth seekers. its almost a joke really when i hear things like these.
You should perhaps look up for some debates of Ahmed deedat or zakir naik or change your sources of learning.

 

[Mohsin]

The diagram and description above are acurate representations of the trinity. However, this is not mentioned in the bible. It was constructed by church doctrine.

Hey renak, i'm just wondering, what are your reasons for rejecting islam. I mean you believe in One God and not the trinity, you believe he was not Son of God just a messenger (I believe), and you also seem to agree the bible has been changed in some parts.
If you look at islam we believe similarly, we are so close to him, if you look at how he prayed in the bible, we pray just like he did, we do ablution just like he did, he didn't eat pork, was circumcised, didn't drink, had a beard, wore a dress similar to what muslims wear, he greeted people in the same way muslims greet people. So much stuff. Was just curious, i'm sure you have your reasons.

 

[Muslim Knight]

to my Muslim brothers & sisters and greetings of peace to others,

So if this Trinity is so important for your (Christian) salvation, why has it only shown up just during Paul (after the ascension of Jesus) and not during the time of Jesus or the Messengers of God before him (Moses, Abraham, Noah all emphasized on the Oneness of God). What will happen to those Prophets who at their respective times, have no knowledge nor idea of the Trinity?

Does this mean they had no salvation and will all go to hell because they have not known Jesus, nor they had the chance to meet him during their lifetime because Jesus was born later?

Can you Christians please explain what will happen to our real father, Adam and the righteous people who went after him right up till Jesus was born? What does your Trinity say about them? According to your Trinity, they will all certainly go to hell because they don't believe in it, much less mention about it (no record of them having taught about it, that's why Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible). For if the Trinity says all the righteous and God-fearing people before Jesus like Job, Noah and all the rest will all go to hell because they do not believe in the Trinity, then Christianity is indeed a cruel religion.

So why does it then, when Paul arrives he made so much fuss about Trinity when the earlier Prophets including Jesus were silent about it.

You know what, I think Paul is the real culprit here. He fabricated the Trinity, legalized the wine and pork against the Law and then says, "This is not what Jesus saith, but if thou believeth in Jesus, thou believeth me!!" And you Christians claim you love Jesus but you follow Paul instead.

 

[renak]

Hey renak, i'm just wondering, what are your reasons for rejecting islam. I mean you believe in One God and not the trinity, you believe he was not Son of God just a messenger (I believe), and you also seem to agree the bible has been changed in some parts.
If you look at islam we believe similarly, we are so close to him, if you look at how he prayed in the bible, we pray just like he did, we do ablution just like he did, he didn't eat pork, was circumcised, didn't drink, had a beard, wore a dress similar to what muslims wear, he greeted people in the same way muslims greet people. So much stuff. Was just curious, i'm sure you have your reasons.

I haven't rejected Islam. I have never been introduced to Islam. The information that I do know has been from my own research. I grew up with a family whose father was an Imam in the Nation of Islam. I still don't understand the difference between Islam and Nation of Islam. I just always thought that they didn't share the religion with me because I was white. lol
Nonetheless, they were a very humble, and honest family whom I've always admired.

In many ways I do share the beliefs of Islam (from what I've researched); however, my knowledge stops at Jesus. In case you are wondering I was raised Wesleyan (conservative Methodist), and have some family background which was Mormon, and Baptist. I now just attend the Christian Unitarian church. My schooling was from a Christian nondenominational liberal arts institution, which required the study of various religions.

 

[j4763]

O.K, who wrote the Quran?

Nobody Wrote It !!

It Was Memorized From The Prophet(pbh), Through Gabriel(as)

They Started Writing It After Their Was A Shortage In People Who Had Memorized It, So They Could Preserve It

Bit of a contradiction here. In the first line “nobody wrote it” then in the third “They Started Writing It”.

What I’ve been lead to believe is the Quran was written by Mohammad’s followers because he couldn’t write it cos he couldn’t read or write.
If he was illiterate how did he know the right stuff had be written down?

 

[The Architect]

It looks like you are not reading or watching from the same sources as the rest of the truth seekers. its almost a joke really when i hear things like these.
You should perhaps look up for some debates of Ahmed deedat or zakir naik or change your sources of learning.

For the record, I have read Zakir Naik's teachings, and they are not convincing. Also, his ideas on Christianity are very biased. He tries to disprove the Trinity, and does indeed deny it in his own respective religion. But he leaves out crucial verses from the Bible that imply the concept of the Trinity. Such are as follows:

• Mat 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (see Trinitarian formula).

• Mat 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'" (These and other verses exemplify the argument that Jesus did not refute the Old Testament prohibition against worshipping any god but God, and yet he states that the Son and Holy Spirit are to be involved in worship as well, implying that the Son and Holy Spirit must be, in some sense, God.)

• John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."

• John 8:23-24: "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." (The expression "the one I claim to be" is not in the Greek, it is simply "I am" -- the translators felt that the thought was incomplete as it stood and supplied the expression to complete the sense. This is not necessary if "I am" is a title, as in Exodus 3:14.)

• John 8:58 "'I tell you the truth', Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (This formulation mirrors Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, 'I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "I AM has sent me to you."'")

• John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." (Jesus is speaking here. The use of the Greek neuter form ἕν indicates one "thing", i.e., the same substance. Alleged contradictions between this interpretation and verses that indicate a subordination of the Son to the Father are explained in reference to the two natures of Christ, the divine nature being identical with that of the Father, and the human nature, with a human intellect and will, being subject to the Father.)

• John 10:38: "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

• Col 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"

• Rev 1:17-18: "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (This formulation mirrors
  Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12 where "the First and Last" is a Divine title.)

The Trinity concept is even implied in Genesis 1:1.

"In Beginning Elohim"

Within the pages of Scripture we find it clearly stated that there is indeed, only one God.1 This is a fundamental belief of Judaism and Christianity. However, there are indications in the very first verse of Genesis that God is a plural Being.

"In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1

The word used for God in Genesis 1:1 is "Elohim," which is a form of the word "El." In the context of Genesis 1:1, there can certainly be no doubt as to who is doing the creating. In the Hebrew language the "im" ending imputes plurality. Therefore, "Elohim" is the plural from of the word "El."

It is interesting to note that each usage of this word throughout the Bible is grammatically incorrect. It is a plural noun used with singular verbs. According to Genesis 1:1, the Creator of the Universe, Elohim, exists as a plural being.

If this were not so then the word "El" or perhaps Yahweh would have been used. However, the Holy Spirit chose to use the word "Elohim," the plural form of the name of God in the very first place where the name of God is proclaimed.

"Let Us Make Man in Our Image"

"And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" Genesis 1:26, (Jewish Publication Society version, 1917)

The plurality of God is also discovered in the creation of man. According to this fascinating verse, man was created by God in his own image. However, there is something provocative and unexpected in this verse. Prior to the creation of man we find a conversation between God (Elohim) and an unidentified being ("let Us make man in Our image"). Who is this person with whom God is speaking?

This person, or intelligent being, has some attributes that we can glean from the text. First, the personage is able to speak with God "on His turf", that is, in the realm of timeless eternity.

Secondly, this being apparently has the same kind of creative ability as God ("Let US make"). This describes a cooperative effort between Elohim and the person with whom He is speaking.

Finally, the likeness or image of this being is comparable to God's ("In Our image, after Our likeness").

When confronted with this passage, modern rabbis often claim that God is speaking to the angels. However, this explanation fails to recognize a number of problems.

First, there is no indication in the Bible that angels can create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels are made in the image of God. Finally, there is no indication that mankind was made in the image of angels either!

We may conclude that the person with whom Elohim is conversing lives in the eternal realm, has His creative power and exists in the image or likeness of God. No angel, no man, no created being in heaven or on earth could possibly fit these criteria.

The plurality of God is also seen in Genesis 3:22. After Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden we find a fascinating conversation:

"The LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of US, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'" Genesis 3:22 (NKJ).

"Man has become like one of US." To whom is the LORD talking?

Again in Genesis 11:7, God is discussing His solution to the whole earth having one language at the time of the Tower of Babel:

"Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:7 (NKJ).

The fact that the LORD (Yahweh) refers to Himself in these passages as "Us," is indeed a fascinating hint to the plurality of God.

http://www.direct.ca/trinity/elohim.html

I would post more, but I have have to get to my psychology class. I'm in school right now. Later!

 

[Muslim Knight]

What I’ve been lead to believe is the Quran was written by Mohammad’s followers because he couldn’t write it cos he couldn’t read or write.
If he was illiterate how did he know the right stuff had be written down?

He dictated the verses to his Companions after he received them from the Angel Gabriel.

 

[Muslim Knight]

So if this Trinity is so important for your (Christian) salvation, why has it only shown up just during Paul (after the ascension of Jesus) and not during the time of Jesus or the Messengers of God before him (Moses, Abraham, Noah all emphasized on the Oneness of God). What will happen to those Prophets who at their respective times, have no knowledge nor idea of the Trinity?

Does this mean they had no salvation and will all go to hell because they have not known Jesus, nor they had the chance to meet him during their lifetime because Jesus was born later?

Can you Christians please explain what will happen to our real father, Adam and the righteous people who went after him right up till Jesus was born? What does your Trinity say about them? According to your Trinity, they will all certainly go to hell because they don't believe in it, much less mention about it (no record of them having taught about it, that's why Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible). For if the Trinity says all the righteous and God-fearing people before Jesus like Job, Noah and all the rest will all go to hell because they do not believe in the Trinity, then Christianity is indeed a cruel religion.

So why does it then, when Paul arrives he made so much fuss about Trinity when the earlier Prophets including Jesus were silent about it.

You know what, I think Paul is the real culprit here. He fabricated the Trinity, legalized the wine and pork against the Law and then says, "This is not what Jesus saith, but if thou believeth in Jesus, thou believeth me!!" And you Christians claim you love Jesus but you follow Paul instead.

Still waiting for the Christians to respond here. Why, for thousands of years as Messengers were sent to guide mankind so long as it has existed before, never so much mentioned about Trinity, Jesus being the Son of God and all the rest. Does all the righteous people of those Messengers' times then go to hell for not baptising themselves in Jesus name? Because Jesus was not yet born?

 

[The Architect]

Still waiting for the Christians to respond here. Why, for thousands of years as Messengers were sent to guide mankind so long as it has existed before, never so much mentioned about Trinity, Jesus being the Son of God and all the rest. Does all the righteous people of those Messengers' times then go to hell for not baptising themselves in Jesus name? Because Jesus was not yet born?

Read my above post. The Trinity was not given a name at that time, but the concept was implied before Jesus' death and ressurection.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Yet you fail to answer what will happen to those Messengers and pious men of ancient times I've mentioned. According to your Trinity, they will still go to hell because they haven't been baptized in Jesus name, because they all carry the Original Sin which Jesus needed to die to erase it from mankind. Like a baby born to Muslim parents, who dies 2-3 days later having not baptized as a Christian, and will certainly be doomed to hell, according to your Trinity.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

But I must state that you all are very close minded. Listen people, can either of our sides really prove that our respective faith is correct? No. Only in the end when God judges us all will we truly know.

If God established a religion to be followed on earth that would lead its inhabitants to salvation, then surely He would allow it to be distinguished from falsehood? What use will it be to a person to know the truth when we meet God for judgement, when it will be too late to follow the truth and too late to regret one's actions? The time to search for the truth is now, and truth always prevails over falsehood.

So if you examine the two religions properly, you will see how one is perfect and easy to comprehend, whereas the other one's distortions make it hard to follow.

O.K, who wrote the Quran?

AUTHORSHIP: It is difficult to even know who the author of the Quran truly is. Was it Allah (Suras 53:2-18; 81:19-24), or the holy spirit (Suras 16:102; 26:192-194), or Angels (Sura 15:8), or just the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)?

If you actually read the verses, you will be able to answer your own question. Let's a take a quick look at them:

[16.102] Say: The Holy spirit has revealed it from your Lord with the truth, that it may establish those who believe and as a guidance and good news for those who submit.

This clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit is a messenger, who is conveying the message from his Lord.

[26.192] And most surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
[26.193] The Faithful Spirit has descended with it,

I hope you can see the same message as the above being given here .


[15.7] Why do you not bring to us the angels if you are of the truthful ones?
[15.8] We do not send the angels but with truth, and then they would not be respited.

This still does not agree with your point as it does not state that the revelation was of the angels' own making.

Nobody Wrote It !!

It Was Memorized From The Prophet(pbh), Through Gabriel(as)

They Started Writing It After Their Was A Shortage In People Who Had Memorized It, So They Could Preserve It

Bit of a contradiction here. In the first line “nobody wrote it” then in the third “They Started Writing It”.

What was meant by "nobody wrote it" was that the Qur'an is not a product created by mankind; it was inspired to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) by God, in various ways.

"They started writing it" refers to the preservation of the Qur'an after it was fully revealed.

If he was illiterate how did he know the right stuff had be written down?

Many people learnt the Qur'an by heart, and the proper compilation of the Qur'an occurred after the Prophet's (peace be upon him) death. If you would like to know more about it, there are threads about it here and here.

Peace.

 

[abdul Majid]

Well Said Brother
Barakallahfeek
Salam Alakum

 

[Maimunah]

subhanaallah
good one bro mohammad
salaam

 

[The Architect]

Greetings,
If God established a religion to be followed on earth that would lead its inhabitants to salvation, then surely He would allow it to be distinguished from falsehood? What use will it be to a person to know the truth when we meet God for judgement, when it will be too late to follow the truth and too late to regret one's actions? The time to search for the truth is now, and truth always prevails over falsehood.

You believe that Christianity is falsehood and I believe that Islam is falsehood. However, that is beside the point.

God knows about everything we will do in our future, all the decisions we will make, all the choices that determine our place in this world, whether it be with Him or not. Religion was a product of man; religion is based on events that people believe are divine or spiritual or symbolic in some sense i.e. Jesus dying on the cross for example. God did not create either of our respective religions. The religion itself, the worship of God was man's choice. Man chose to worship God in a way that he felt was suitable to himself, and laws (not the Ten Commandments) created by man were (and in some places, still are) regulated by religion. Only God truly knows which religion is the correct one, and He has made His choice in advance.

Peace.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings The Architect,

God knows about everything we will do in our future, all the decisions we will make, all the choices that determine our place in this world, whether it be with Him or not.

I agree with this, though I don't see how it invalidates the need to worship God in the manner that He ordained.

Religion was a product of man; religion is based on events that people believe are divine or spiritual or symbolic in some sense i.e. Jesus dying on the cross for example. God did not create either of our respective religions. The religion itself, the worship of God was man's choice. Man chose to worship God in a way that he felt was suitable to himself, and laws (not the Ten Commandments) created by man were (and in some places, still are) regulated by religion.

I find it strange for a Christian to be saying this, since I doubt much of this is endorsed by Christianity. If God did not create a religion, and worship is man's own choice, then why do you say that God "knows which religion is the correct one"? Moreover, what is our purpose here on earth? Why would God create us and then leave us in darkness, not knowing right from wrong... and then inform us of the truth after we have served our time on earth? None of this makes any logical sense, especially when we know that God is Loving and Just.

Now let's look at the other perspective: that there has always been a religion, consisting of a very simple message. This message is to worship the one and only God who created everything, without any partners. At the beginning, this is what people were upon, and everything was fine until satan misguided them and caused them to forget the true worship of God and to choose their own worship that had no basis or reason behind it other than desires and false beliefs. God, having knowledge of everything, knew this would happen and sent Messengers to remind people about the Message, and bring people back to the true religion. And this is what has been happening throughout time: people deviate and create their own methods of worship without any basis, whereas the correct worship of God has been enforced through Messengers from Him, supported by miracles and scriptures, containing manifest authority to adhere to a religion of truth.

The whole reason of our being here is as God explains in His final, preserved revelation to mankind:

51:56 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

This life is thus a test for those who wish to seek the truth; to find that truth and adhere to it, and they shall then be rewarded or punished accordingly when this world comes to an end at an appointed time. This is why adherence to the correct way of worship is vital in this life, as it will be too late to realise it in the hereafter; in the same way as seeing the answers to an already failed exam cannot earn a student a pass mark.

Peace.

 

[The Architect]

Greetings The Architect,


I agree with this, though I don't see how it invalidates the need to worship God in the manner that He ordained.

I find it strange for a Christian to be saying this, since I doubt much of this is endorsed by Christianity. If God did not create a religion, and worship is man's own choice, then why do you say that God "knows which religion is the correct one"? Moreover, what is our purpose here on earth? Why would God create us and then leave us in darkness, not knowing right from wrong... and then inform us of the truth after we have served our time on earth? None of this makes any logical sense, especially when we know that God is Loving and Just.

Now let's look at the other perspective: that there has always been a religion, consisting of a very simple message. This message is to worship the one and only God who created everything, without any partners. At the beginning, this is what people were upon, and everything was fine until satan misguided them and caused them to forget the true worship of God and to choose their own worship that had no basis or reason behind it other than desires and false beliefs. God, having knowledge of everything, knew this would happen and sent Messengers to remind people about the Message, and bring people back to the true religion. And this is what has been happening throughout time: people deviate and create their own methods of worship without any basis, whereas the correct worship of God has been enforced through Messengers from Him, supported by miracles and scriptures, containing manifest authority to adhere to a religion of truth.

The whole reason of our being here is as God explains in His final, preserved revelation to mankind:

51:56 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

This life is thus a test for those who wish to seek the truth; to find that truth and adhere to it, and they shall then be rewarded or punished accordingly when this world comes to an end at an appointed time. This is why adherence to the correct way of worship is vital in this life, as it will be too late to realise it in the hereafter; in the same way as seeing the answers to an already failed exam cannot earn a student a pass mark.

Peace.

The reason I say religion is man's creation is because of the varying number of interpretations of His message that are out there. You believe that the prophet Muhammad had it right. I believe that Muhammad was a liar and that Jesus has it right and is, in a sense, God, based upon the concept of the Trinity. But you see, all these prophets who were inspired by God to spread His Word, they all believed in their own beliefs to be the true Word. There are very slight differences in beliefs, like Islam's belief of the sin "shirk" for example. God's Word never changes. But Christianity is different. Jesus is God incarnate. He came down to not destroy the old laws, but to fulfill them, to make them easier to understand, to make His Word clearer. So basically, Christianity is correct. Jesus, being not only God but also a man, started a religion. It was the "man part" of Jesus, the "prophet part" (yes I'm making these terms up. so what? ;D) that made Christianity.

 

[Muslim Knight]

You still haven't responded how the pious men and Messengers of God will be saved from hell when they have been denied the pleasure of meeting Jesus (who was yet to be born) and to be baptized in his name because, according to your Trinity, he is supposed to die to account for all the sins of mankind (who accepted him as saviour). Now there is no account of these prophets, beloved pious men loved by God (for example, Job and Moses) having accepted Jesus as their saviour, because if they had it would have been recorded down in the Bible.

Now, do you suppose, as a follower of Trinity, that these pious men will end up in hell? Because like us Muslims, they have not accepted Jesus as their saviour.

 

[The Architect]

You still haven't responded how the pious men and Messengers of God will be saved from hell when they have been denied the pleasure of meeting Jesus (who was yet to be born) and to be baptized in his name because, according to your Trinity, he is supposed to die to account for all the sins of mankind (who accepted him as saviour). Now there is no account of these prophets, beloved pious men loved by God (for example, Job and Moses) having accepted Jesus as their saviour, because if they had it would have been recorded down in the Bible.

Now, do you suppose, as a follower of Trinity, that these pious men will end up in hell? Because like us Muslims, they have not accepted Jesus as their saviour.

Sorry. I didn't mean to avoid your question if that's what it seemed like. I went out with some friends and had some Pre-Calculus homework to do for school, but anyway...

I don't know if they accepted Him "per say", but they believed in Him, and they knew a Messiah was coming. I would have to say no they did not go to hell because even though Jesus was not physically born yet, He was still there in spirit. That Elohim thing that I mentioned earlier, the "im" implies plurality, so therefore, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were there spirit.

 

[Muslim Knight]

I don't know if they accepted Him "per say", but they believed in Him, and they knew a Messiah was coming. I would have to say no they did not go to hell because even though Jesus was not physically born yet, He was still there in spirit. That Elohim thing that I mentioned earlier, the "im" implies plurality, so therefore, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were there spirit.

Now, it states that in the Doctrine of Trinity that Jesus had to die as a man for the sins of mankind (who accepted him as the savior) to be borne by him alone, that those who accepted him after he has died for their sins, will be free of sin.

I mentioned earlier, those Messengers and pious men, they didn't have the pleasure of meeting him. Though they might know something about the coming of the Messiah, through knowledge that God might reveal to them, Jesus, as you say, was (back then) in spirit form and not yet born unto this world. Now, your doctrine says that he has to die for the sins of mankind to be borne by him. How can a man die on the cross if he is not yet born? Do we crucify a spirit then? How?

We Muslims have no trouble because we don't dabble in the idea of Trinity. We believe that the salvation depends solely on the Mercy of God and through His Messengers (particularly Muhammad salallahu 'alayhi wassalam) we learn that God's Mercy can be obtained through sincere worship of God (Him alone!), doing of good deeds , restraining desire and lust and avoiding evil deeds. No one has to die for the sins of others and much kindness unto God's creatures will earn the Light of His countenance. The same went for the previous Messengers (before Jesus) and their respective followers. That is why the Bible tells of us accounts of the story of their righteousness and their God-fearing characters but neglects to mention even a bit about the men of old accepting Jesus as savior nor did it mention anything about the Trinity.

This chain has been established from our father Adam to the Seal of of the Prophet Muhammad salallahu 'alayhi wassalam. The mighty Messenger of God, Jesus perpetuated this chain until it was broken by Paul, who introduced the Trinity, centuries after the Ascension. This Trinity, is an anomaly which deviates from Monotheism because as you can see, we are having trouble figuring out if pious people of old, without Jesus as their Savior, will go to Heaven or Hell. This chain I'm talking about, was restored with the coming of Muhammad, who instituted Sharia derived from divine revelation (Al-Quran) with rules and regulations pretty much the same with that of the Torah. We Muslims believe Muhammad came to complete the chain, the Law, rather than bring a whole new religion. This is why we come to believe that Paul is the culprit who corrupted the religion of God.

God is Loving, Just and Merciful. He didn't need to sacrifice anyone to remove the sins of other. For our salvation we need to repent to Him. This is why the need for repentance is also a theme available in the Bible. This also the reason Al-Quran perpetuates this theme. Otherwise why does the Bible bother mentioning about repentance when someone else is going to die for your sins and you go scott-free afterwards? It is the mad idea of Paul who twisted the teachings of Jesus and brought this crazy idea of God sacrificing His own Son only because He loved this world and mankind so much.

 

[Nicola]

God is Loving, Just and Merciful. He didn't need to sacrifice anyone to remove the sins of other. For our salvation we need to repent to Him. This is why the need for repentance is also a theme available in the Bible. This also the reason Al-Quran perpetuates this theme. Otherwise why does the Bible bother mentioning about repentance when someone else is going to die for your sins and you go scott-free afterwards? It is the mad idea of Paul who twisted the teachings of Jesus and brought this crazy idea of God sacrificing His own Son only because He loved this world and mankind so much.

yes God is all those things and above all else...God is Holy. We all agree God detests sin....It's clearly shown in the Old testement....that God would turn his face away from from a sinful person, sinful nation etc....he simple refuses to acknowlege prayer, nations problems etc...
God will only listen if we repent
The difference with the God of the Bible and God of the Koran...

He didn't need to sacrifice anyone to remove the sins of other. For our salvation we need to repent to Him.

When we turn back to the Old Testament of the Bible, we see that after sin entered into the world, God required the blood sacrifice of animals for the atonement of sins.

Leviticus 17:11, For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Leviticus 4:3-5 If the priest that is anointed do sin...then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering....he shall... lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD. And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation...

This is why the need for repentance is also a theme available in the Bible.

Yes I agree we are told to repent but that is not enough God requires blood and if you notice all through the Bible that blood must be of a pure animal..with no blemish etc..else God would not except it.

Remember the passover blood in Egypt...God required blood again...that blood save all the first-born in thoses houses the blood was on.

Another scarifice and another sprinking with blood

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Jeremiah around 600 years before Jesus was born...God tells us he has a better way coming for us...so that our sins will no longer be remembed


I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more." Sins are no longer "kept on file", record is blotted out, destroyed. God cannot "forget" like in human error, but He chooses to "not remember."


Isaiah 43:25
25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.




Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

When we read about the Jews in egypt..

This also the reason Al-Quran perpetuates this theme. Otherwise why does the Bible bother mentioning about repentance when someone else is going to die for your sins and you go scott-free afterwards?

God requires both...he needs us to firstly be truly sorry for our sins..words are simple to say..it's meaning them that is imorptant to...once we are sorry...God then requires a blood sacrifice like in the old testement..but now not with animal blood...but with Jesus' blood..
The blood of Jesus is so very important...The blood of animals had to be shed over and over but the blood of Jesus was shed only one time.

Please don't think its like 'Oh I'll except Jesus' and now I'm scott free of everything it isn't that simple....
God knows...if we mean it or not, if we do a character changes...totally over time our old self really does fade away..you become a new person..
Jesus tells us, it is no good telling him on Judgement day...we have done this and that for him etc..
Because he will know what was in our hearts and if that is not right..we don't spend eternity with him and God.

It is the mad idea of Paul who twisted the teachings of Jesus and brought this crazy idea of God sacrificing His own Son only because He loved this world and mankind so much.

Since the old testement we understand that God is preparing a new covernant with us..and Jesus tells us at the last supper...that he is that new blood.

hope this helps you understand the meaning of the blood alittle..look to the old testement for guidance....to see the importance of blood to God.