If Jesus Was God Then...

[Muslim Knight]

Yet again, you fail to answer the problem that Trinity imposes on the Messengers of God and their pious followers from earlier generations that passed before Jesus' alleged crucifixion, during his ministry and moreover, before he was born. Again I ask, what is the Trinity solution to pious people, Messengers of God who worship only God (and none other) but have never accepted Jesus as their Savior (due to the fact that he was still in the spirit form, them probably having no knowledge of him as this is what the Bible says, having no record of previous Messengers mentioning about the Trinity and the fact that Jesus needed to die in order for him to bear the sins of those who accepted him as Savior.)

We read about David conversing with the Lord, Job conversing with the Lord and Moses conversing with the Lord. But never, not once did the Lord mentioning to them about having to accept His "Son", who in the future is about to be sacrificed, as their Savior.

So what will happen to these pious people who holds intimate conversation with God? They have not accepted Jesus as their Savior, because if they have done so, the Bible would have recorded their testimony on this. According to the Doctrine of Trinity, they, along with us Muslims will surely go to Hell.

 

[E'jaazi]

7 can only quote a verse and then say the Trinity is implied. That is not definitive. In the Qu'ran, it states that there is no Trinity - in a very definitive way. I can also produce verses from the Bible that prove there is no Trinity. But here is the real problem for the Christians. When you have translated scriptures, you have you lost and changed meanings. I have asked you before to show us the original writings, so that we know for sure what it says and we can better understand the meaning. The Qu'ran is the only book that contains the original language. I can also show where in the Bible, since that's what Christians go by, that say Jesus was only a man and that he only came for certain people.

 

[Nicola]

So what will happen to these pious people who holds intimate conversation with God? They have not accepted Jesus as their Savior, because if they have done so, the Bible would have recorded their testimony on this. According to the Doctrine of Trinity, they, along with us Muslims will surely go to Hell.

Even though Jesus tells he was with God since the beginning ..God choose not to let Jesus become known yet...
you can't be judged on a law that you never lived under. These people lived under the law of God at that time so will judged according to that law..

People who have lived since God gave us the new New Covenant to live of life by, we shall be judged according to what Jesus teaches us, if they have heard about it.. the 10 commandents still apply today but..like Jesus tells us the two main laws are firstly...To put God above all else...and secondly love our neighbour as ourselves..the other 9 commandents of the old testement..really fall into this second one..all the people who have died without ever hearing the gospel of having a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus will not be judged by that law..God is always Just.
We know Jesus wont return until the gospel has been given to all nations on earth.

 

[Nicola]

I can also show where in the Bible, since that's what Christians go by, that say Jesus was only a man and that he only came for certain people.

I can show you in the Bible, where they say Jesus was working for the Satan..and not God. Does this make it true then?

 

[E'jaazi]

I can show you in the Bible, where they say Jesus was working for the Satan..and not God. Does this make it true then?

If you had a copy of the original writings, we could both understand the meaning better.

 

[Nicola]

If you had a copy of the original writings, we could both understand the meaning better.

well I wish i had the original scribes also..lol

unforunatly I can't read hebrew or greek...so we have to rely on man translations of them.

 

[E'jaazi]

well I wish i had the original scribes also..lol

unforunatly I can't read hebrew or greek...so we have to rely on man translations of them.

I invite you to read the Qu'ran. At least you know that the translation is seriously close to the arabic. Also, have you thought about learning hebrew? If you did, and then read the Torah, I think you would feel alot different about what you believe and what Islam teaches.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Even though Jesus tells he was with God since the beginning ..God choose not to let Jesus become known yet...

Along with the rest of us (who have been created in spirit form but not yet physical form) who have yet to be spilled upon this earth. Doesn't make Jesus God or something divine. He is the Messenger of God.

you can't be judged on a law that you never lived under. These people lived under the law of God at that time so will judged according to that law..

I wasn't talking about the law(s) of God. I was referring to the Trinity and how your salvation depended upon Jesus dying upon the cross so that he can bear all your sins and make you free. In this context I am asking who was bearing the sins of those who lived before Jesus was allegedly crucified and moreover, before he was born. Who bore the sins of David? Who bore the sins of Job? Who bore the sins of Moses? Before Jesus came into physical existence and started dying for Christians' sins? Don't talk about law. Talk about salvation!

If you say they (David, Job, Moses) repented without having anyone dying for them and that God forgave them before they died, hence making them beloved of God and recipients of Kingdom of Heaven, does it not occur to you that God can even provide forgiveness for us now without requiring any blood sacrifice only repentance and turning worship only to Him alone?

People who have lived since God gave us the new New Covenant to live of life by, we shall be judged according to what Jesus teaches us, if they have heard about it.. the 10 commandents still apply today but..like Jesus tells us the two main laws are firstly...To put God above all else...and secondly love our neighbour as ourselves..the other 9 commandents of the old testement..really fall into this second one..all the people who have died without ever hearing the gospel of having a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus will not be judged by that law..God is always Just.
We know Jesus wont return until the gospel has been given to all nations on earth.

But you were not following what Jesus taught you. You followed Paul's teaching instead. He came around hundreds of years after the Ascension and abrogated what Jesus came to fulfill since Jesus explicitly stated that he came not to destroy (the law). You are saying that you love Jesus yet you follow one who only claim to be his apostle but goes on against his teachings. You eat pigs and drink wine when these have been explicitly forbidden in the OT.

 

[أحمد]

well I wish i had the original scribes also..lol

unforunatly I can't read hebrew or greek...so we have to rely on man translations of them.

I can translate the Hebrew for you, I don't really know any Greek, but we might find someone on this forum who does Insha-Allah . . . :happy:

 

[Nicola]

Me learn Hebrew...lol I need to master my own language first...
seriously I'd love to..
I have began looking at the Koran...every now and again..and that is why of the reasons I joined this forum to learn information from Muslims..etc..
I do have Muslim girlfriends...and friends with their families but they won't really discuss Islam with me..even when I bring it up by asking questions..they come to my church with me sometimes though.

I would never become a Muslim though I want to understand and learn about Islam..our differences etc...Some teachings I do not agree with in Islam so could never accept them in my heart.

then read the Torah, I think you would feel alot different about what you believe and what Islam teaches.

what makes you think that?

 

[Nicola]

Who bore the sins of David? Who bore the sins of Job? Who bore the sins of Moses? Before Jesus came into physical existence and started dying for Christians' sins? Don't talk about law. Talk about salvation!

I think you must have missed my earlier post because you have referred to it...and in that one I said how God as always used blood for the atonement of sin...always... take a look back at my earlier post please...save me putting it here again. Then we can discuss that more.

 

[Nicola]

I can translate the Hebrew for you, I don't really know any Greek, but we might find someone on this forum who does Insha-Allah . . . :happy:

thanks alot for that...though I would even know how to begin...lol

I will look for a Hebrew site then?

when ever I'm reading my Bible Gods' Holy Spirit always leads me, he is the one who makes it possible for me to understand what I am reading what it is meaning etc. He opens my eyes..He gives me the Knowledge..it isn't my own.

 

[E'jaazi]

what makes you think that?

Because Jews who can read Hebrew have talked about the differences in the meaning of the words because of the translations. When you know the original language and you understand the meaning better, it makes things alot clearer. For instance, when I take arabic classes, we are shown how the meaning of a word changes if you pronounce it wrong. The Arabic in the Qu'ran was sent down by Allah and was not the common arabic spoken amongst the people. That is one of the proofs for the Qu'rans authenticity. So when I say I take arabic, it's not the same as what the people speak. You can use it ti talk to other people, because you start to pick up on different aspects of arabic, but it mostly for reading and reciting the Qu'ran.

 

[Nicola]

But you were not following what Jesus taught you. You followed Paul's teaching instead

.

No I am following what Jesus taught really. Pauls teachings are really the finer details of living a good moral life..no sex without marriage etc..Jesus never mentions that


He came around hundreds of years after the Ascension and abrogated what Jesus came to fulfill since Jesus explicitly stated that he came not to destroy (the law).

Paul came around 60-70 years after Jesus' death. I know Jesus came to fulfil the law. Jesus came to show us a new way of life though that is very important ..the law is important but what is more important is loving each other, the right attitude..we must always put people before ourselves..

The pharies kept the law...but they where soooo cold hearted...they where truly hateful people..though from the outside they looked very good people because the kept the law of God..
Jesus tells us to pray in secret to God...to give to the poor in secret..so God will reward us in secret..If we do all this openly so man can see us...we are wanted mans approvel how we give money to the poor etc...our reward (praise) will come from man...not God!...
Jesus is telling us Not to show off infront of people. We only need to earn the respect and acceptance of God not man.

yes the Pharies gave money to the poor and everyone knew how much they gave..because they made sure they let everyone know...they prayed in the open..so everyone could here their prayer to God, how well they kept Gods Law...but what of their hearts?they where not right with God.
Jesus wants us to be humble. So although the law is important a standard of what God wants us to live by...loving no another, having a giving heart is what he wants also.

You are saying that you love Jesus yet you follow one who only claim to be his apostle but goes on against his teachings.

Please tell me what teachings, I am doing wrong against Jesus and God?.

You eat pigs and drink wine when these have been explicitly forbidden in the OT.

I don't drink....Jesus even turned water into wine... I don't do drugs (I detest both thing to be honest)..I eat pork rarely bacon only.

Jesus tells us it's what comes out of our mouths what matters, not what goes in.

Mark 7:14 (NIV) Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.’"

Mark 7:15 (NIV) After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. Mark 7:17 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? Mark 7:18 (NIV) For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") Mark 7:19 (NIV)

Jesus' main concern is our heart..

 

[i_m_tipu]

here we go again

i hope they will stay longer than others

by the time we can learn many InasAllaah.....

pls not undermind anything & feel free to express with logics.....

InasAllaah....

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace muslim knight,

In this context I am asking who was bearing the sins of those who lived before Jesus was allegedly crucified

We cannot pretend to know the mind of God, but hopefully God has to be morally greater than all of us put together.

If God was planning to forgive sins would he have planned this before the creation of the universe began, or would he only think of this after Moses and Abraham had lived and died?

If the forgiveness of sins rested on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus then would it make more sense for God to have made these plans before the creation of the universe began?

In the spirit of seeking interfaith peace

Eric

 

[songinwind]

Me learn Hebrew...lol I need to master my own language first...
seriously I'd love to..
I have began looking at the Koran...every now and again..and that is why of the reasons I joined this forum to learn information from Muslims..etc..
I do have Muslim girlfriends...and friends with their families but they won't really discuss Islam with me..even when I bring it up by asking questions..they come to my church with me sometimes though.

I would never become a Muslim though I want to understand and learn about Islam..our differences etc...Some teachings I do not agree with in Islam so could never accept them in my heart.







what makes you think that?

(I would never become a Muslim).......Allah picks and choses who HE pleases, so never say "never" ...inshaAllah..peace to you.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Greetings and peace muslim knight,

Greetings and peace, Eric H.

We cannot pretend to know the mind of God, but hopefully God has to be morally greater than all of us put together.

He is. His attributes are mentioned in the Quran. We Muslims seek refuge in God's divine guidance and goodness.

If God was planning to forgive sins would he have planned this before the creation of the universe began, or would he only think of this after Moses and Abraham had lived and died?

God is the Best of Planners. He would have thought of it all before creation. To carry out a plan and to modify it midway is very human. God is beyond that. Al-Quran already mentioned that Adam was forgiven for his sins and that he was sent down to earth as a test for him and his descendants. Our time here is limited and that we will all return to Him. God teaches us in the Quran that each of us is carries not the burden of sin of others but is accountable to our own deeds (or misdeeds).

If the forgiveness of sins rested on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus then would it make more sense for God to have made these plans before the creation of the universe began?

He would have placed the crufixion in the beginning so that the Messengers and pious men would have affirmed Jesus right away. This would be then be recorded in the Bible. God would not have to suddenly change the method of how people would obtain His Mercy and forgiveness. God does not act on impulse like we mortals do.

In the spirit of seeking interfaith peace

Peace be upon you.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

its quite funny how the Trinity works.. its funny how God works how the humor between Jesus and His Father.

The trinity was neither taught or explained in the bible. The word doesn't even get mentioned once. It was invented by the Church, and is not part of Nabi Easa's (as) teachings. There's nothing funny about what the brother posted. It just goes to show that Jesus did NOT preach he was God, au'udhubillah. Rather he will testify on the day of Judgement that he did none of this, and he has nothing to do with the blasphemy that people ascribe to him.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Greetings and peace muslim knight,



We cannot pretend to know the mind of God, but hopefully God has to be morally greater than all of us put together.

If God was planning to forgive sins would he have planned this before the creation of the universe began, or would he only think of this after Moses and Abraham had lived and died?

If the forgiveness of sins rested on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus then would it make more sense for God to have made these plans before the creation of the universe began?

In the spirit of seeking interfaith peace

Eric

Why does God The All-Merciful need a blood sacrifice to forgive the sins of humanity, a blood sacrifice who was completely innocent. And how has this blood sacrifice benefitted anyone? The world is just as evil if not more. Just take a look around the world around you.