If Jesus Was God Then...

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

yeah... kind of hypocritical if you ask me. (no offence)

 

[Nicola]

QUOTE=~Mu'MiNaH~;210274]that sounds so pagan to me... like the incas or something. Come on, forgiveness is easy for God.[/QUOTE]

God is so pure and Very Holy...he cannot look upon a sinful person...
Without the blood for the atonement of sin. Althought the Bible we understand just how Holy God is.


If you read and study the OT you will see God always require blood for our sins. After Adams fall. How about the Holy of Holyies?
They are Gods laws not mine and I would never call His laws as Pagan ideas.

It was the blood that saved the Jews first borns..in egypt remember? God instructed Moses to cover their own door ways with blood of an unblembish animal scarifice.. so God would not harm the first borns males of the Jews, so every first born male in those houses..where saved because of the blood God told them to use.
This is the Jewish Passover that the Jews even celebrate today. Passover
meaning God passed over their houses.

Exodus chapter 12: one lamb was slain for every household and the blood painted onto the lintels and doorposts. This was done in order that the angel of Death would not slay the first-born son of the Jewish households, but only those of Pharoah's people, whom God had warned He would judge. "When I see the blood, I will pass over you" the Lord told the children of Israel


Lev 4:14 when the sin wherein they have sinned is known, then the assembly shall offer a young bullock for a sin-offering, and bring it before the tent of meeting.

 

[Nicola]

its funny how christians beleive in the old testiment(which is the torah)..

and not the QURAN, whichs is all evidences

It is because of Muslims believe Islam came from God, where as Jews and Christians do not believe the Quran comes from God..

Offence not intented..sorry

 

[Nicola]

but they still reference the old testiment!!

don't you use the OT as reference at all?

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

QUOTE=~Mu'MiNaH~;210274]that sounds so pagan to me... like the incas or something. Come on, forgiveness is easy for God.

God is so pure and Very Holy...he cannot look upon a sinful person...
Without the blood for the atonement of sin. Althought the Bible we understand just how Holy God is.


If you read and study the OT you will see God always require blood for our sins. After Adams fall. How about the Holy of Holyies?
They are Gods laws not mine and I would never call His laws as Pagan ideas.

It was the blood that saved the Jews first borns..in egypt remember? God instructed Moses to cover their own door ways with blood of an unblembish animal scarifice.. so God would not harm the first borns males of the Jews, so every first born male in those houses..where saved because of the blood God told them to use.
This is the Jewish Passover that the Jews even celebrate today. Passover
meaning God passed over their houses.

Exodus chapter 12: one lamb was slain for every household and the blood painted onto the lintels and doorposts. This was done in order that the angel of Death would not slay the first-born son of the Jewish households, but only those of Pharoah's people, whom God had warned He would judge. "When I see the blood, I will pass over you" the Lord told the children of Israel


Lev 4:14 when the sin wherein they have sinned is known, then the assembly shall offer a young bullock for a sin-offering, and bring it before the tent of meeting.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so you believe in this All-Merciful, blood thirsty, and also contradicting God?
You said that the angel of death would pass over the houses (or the bible said), why then does it say that the Lord will pass over the houses then?
And don't you think God would know and inform the angel of death who the hebrews were, or is your version of God not All-Seeing like we believe Allah to be (by the way we're supposed to believe in the same God).
Also, us Muslims have a direct relationship with God. We can pray to Him directly without any intecesser no matter what the sin. God is capable of that. He answers al of our du'as and cries, just as He sustains us all at the same time.
And you are shocked when us Muslims say the bible has been changed?

 

[abdul Majid]

ok the difference is.....

we muslims beleive in the past two religions, we beleive in MOSES(p) and JESUS(p).....but my point is you reference the old testament, but aviod the quran completly????

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

That's because they think the bible is still valid bro. We're here to show that that is wrong. The gospel and torah were God's once upon a time, but man intefered with it and now it is tainted. So God sent down the Qur'an as the last message, and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as the last messenger, and promised to protect the Qur'an as it was to be the last message.

 

[Nicola]

Ok, so you believe in this All-Merciful, blood thirsty, and also contradicting God?

It is only contradicting to Muslims, not to Jews or Christians..God to us is never contradicting..because we don't believe in the Quran..I expect if I did...it would seem very contradicting indeed.

You said that the angel of death would pass over the houses (or the bible said), why then does it say that the Lord will pass over the houses then?

Because God is in control of everything, including demons and Satan, God uses demons for his works in the world also.

And don't you think God would know and inform the angel of death who the hebrews were, or is your version of God not All-Seeing like we believe Allah to be (by the way we're supposed to believe in the same God).

It isn't my version of things but Gods. This is what all Jews and Christians believe because God told us so in the OT...
The simple answer is I believe blood save life...God worked out his own laws...I am not here to argue against God and how he chooses to save people their lives and souls.
We as humans will never be able to fully understand God they way he works etc, because we are not like him so it would be impossible to even try.
This is one of the reason why Jews and most Christians believe we don't follow the same God...because the laws of God in the bible and the God of the Koran as so total different..In the OT and NT God requires blood...when Jesus died on the cross...he said "It is finished" meaning the word Jesus was sent to do..was now completed, man had away of eternal savaltion.. then 600yrs later? not sure later sorry....Mohammed gets a different set of rules and laws...which are so completely different from ours from the God we now.
Acutaly it is really only Muslims who believe we follow the same God.

Also, us Muslims have a direct relationship with God. We can pray to Him directly without any intecesser no matter what the sin. God is capable of that. He answers al of our du'as and cries, just as He sustains us all at the same time.
And you are shocked when us Muslims say the bible has been changed

All I can say is God in the OT tells us, he turns away from sinful people and will not answer prayers, unless there is a blood scarifice for an atonement their sins.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Thing is, it isn't God. It's the word of Man. The bible has been changed. You are not required to have blind faith if you believe in the Qur'an, or that 'faith will overcome'. We are encouraged to question why we believe so that we can truly appreciate our faith and be sure we are real believers. 'because God says so' isn't a good enough reply. Prove to me that the bible is still the word of God and I will accept that reply.

 

[Nicola]

That's because they think the bible is still valid bro. We're here to show that that is wrong. The gospel and torah were God's once upon a time, but man intefered with it and now it is tainted. So God sent down the Qur'an as the last message, and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as the last messenger, and promised to protect the Qur'an as it was to be the last message.

yes we do think the Bible is still valid...why? because we still have an awful alot of propheies that haven't been fulfilled yet, from Daniel to Malachi, Jesus' and many more..still need to be!..that is one reason.
Also we also still (well should) abide by the laws God gave us...God is never changing He is always the same.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

By the way each messenger and prophet was given a set of laws for his people, as society changed, and was not ready for the final message. We believe al prophets carried the same message, but different laws.

 

[Nicola]

Thing is, it isn't God. It's the word of Man. The bible has been changed. You are not required to have blind faith if you believe in the Qur'an, or that 'faith will overcome'. We are encouraged to question why we believe so that we can truly appreciate our faith and be sure we are real believers. 'because God says so' isn't a good enough reply. Prove to me that the bible is still the word of God and I will accept that reply.

I can understand exactly what you mean about blind faith etc, and that is something I would Never do!...and please believe me I am not here to argue with you, or put your beliefs down.. I believe what I believe because I recieved a vision from Jesus almost 2 years ago..since that time I have become a believer in Gods words in the bible and Jesus is my saviour, Even Jesus refers to the OT alot in the NT

Before I did not believe in a God, well, I didn't give God any thought in my life. I was far to busy! so you could say I was an agnostic, though a few weeks before the vision I had started questioning "was there a God" etc. I cannot prove my vision to you and I would not expect you to believe me. Since my vision and excepting Jesus as my saviour, I am now being lead by the Holy Spirit which God promises us..in the Bible..and he helps guide and teach me the way God wants me to be.

 

[Nicola]

By the way each messenger and prophet was given a set of laws for his people, as society changed, and was not ready for the final message. We believe al prophets carried the same message, but different laws.

If you mean by God telling his people to repent for their sins etc at different times in history...then yes the message was always the same..but we have so many prophecies that still need to be fullfilled concerning the end times that still have not be fullfilled yet...and these are not to do with people repenting and turning away from sin etc..

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I can understand exactly what you mean about blind faith etc, and that is something I would Never do!...and please believe me I am not here to argue with you, or put your beliefs down.. I believe what I believe because I recieved a vision from Jesus almost 2 years ago..since that time I have become a believer in Gods words in the bible and Jesus is my saviour, Even Jesus refers to the OT alot in the NT

Before I did not believe in a God, well, I didn't give God any thought in my life. I was far to busy! so you could say I was an agnostic, though a few weeks before the vision I had started questioning "was there a God" etc. I cannot prove my vision to you and I would not expect you to believe me. Since my vision and excepting Jesus as my saviour, I am now being lead by the Holy Spirit which God promises us..in the Bible..and he helps guide and teach me the way God wants me to be.

Visions. These aren't proof either, sorry. I know plenty of Muslims who have had dreams of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). My own sister dreamt of him twice! But I would never submit this as evidence. What proof if this if no one else can see it?

Do you cover your head, i believe this is in the corinthians (i think), but i'm sure it's in the new testament.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

If you mean by God telling his people to repent for their sins etc at different times in history...then yes the message was always the same..but we have so many prophecies that still need to be fullfilled concerning the end times that still have not be fullfilled yet...and these are not to do with people repenting and turning away from sin etc..

But the bible has been changed. What do you say about that? Perhaps the prophecies are true, maybe some guy somewhere made it up. That isn't the point, the point is the bible has been changed and everyone has to admit this. There are so many different versions of the bible. Come on, it has been tampered with.
The same God (not Jesus or the holy spirit, just God) sent the final message.. etc, i said it all before.
What do you have to say about the bible being changed?

 

[Nicola]

ok the difference is.....

we muslims beleive in the past two religions, we beleive in MOSES(p) and JESUS(p).....but my point is you reference the old testament, but aviod the quran completly????

If you believed in them you would follow them also..We do not recongnise the Quran because it contridicts the Bible on to many of our main beliefs...issues from the fall of Adam and Eve to how Sin is atoned according to God..for our Salvation, to the Death of Christ..and his second coming. Everything is so totally different from what God said in the bible. And these are the reason why you disagree with the Bible..
The two Holy book are so very different.
e.g Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, to open our hearts to him etc in secret, away from crowds etc..so we won't be like the hypocrites in the OT they wanted want everyone to know they are praying to God..so people would look up to them and see what good people they are!...that does not prove what is in your heart Jesus tells us and only God knows what is.

But He tells us if we pray in secret our Father he will reward us..where as the people who pray in the open for all to hear..they get their reward from man-kind only. Same with fasting we are to do it in secret do not tell man that you are fasting for the Father..

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

so.... you think its impossible to do a deed in public and still hold onto sincerity? I manage to do it. I do most of my good deeds in private obviously, but i wouldn't stop doing a good deeds in public just coz someone was there. This may encourage the person present to do a good deeds aswell and it may remind them of God.

 

[Nicola]

Visions. These aren't proof either, sorry. I know plenty of Muslims who have had dreams of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). My own sister dreamt of him twice! But I would never submit this as evidence. What proof if this if no one else can see it?

I do not need you to believe me God alone knows what he sent me, that is all that matters to me...like I said you asked why I know and this is why I believe and that is my reason...
Mine wasn't a dream I was wide awake..

No one saw or heard what Mohammed did either...yet people believe Mohammeds messages contridicts what Jesus tells us and the rest of the Bible for that matter....that would fall into the same catorgry... it was his word alone, like me is my word alone..


The messages I recieved tied in exactly with the Bible..where Mohammads messages did not tie in with what Jesus tells us to watch out for. Jesus tells us if messages, prophices come to people and they do not follow his teachings they are not from God. That we must test the spirits..and tells us how to test them.

Do I cover my head no...some woman do that I know (in church only) some don't, this is not a doctrine of Christianity. Paul was speaking to the Corinthian woman. Besides I am not married.

1 Corinthians 11:3-16 addresses the issue of women and head coverings. This is admittedly a difficult passage to interpret and apply to today’s church. At that time, in the Corinthian culture, women wore head coverings to demonstrate submission to their husbands. No other book of the Bible mentions head coverings as a common practice. In Corinth, ff a woman were to remove her head covering, it would be equivalent to saying, “I refuse to submit to my husband.” Evidently, some women in Corinth were doing this very thing. As a result, Paul commands the women to wear head coverings to demonstrate their submission to their head, namely their husbands.

Could I ask you a question now, after knowing now that God required blood for sin in the OT what do you think? Do you believe that all those laws books etc...where also corrupted..and God never required these things...

If so for what reason would they have been corrupted..? Why would they put blood scarifices in...if God did not want that?

Or do you believe now infact that this is how the Jews atoned for their sin?


Or do you think we worship different Gods?

Because God in the Bible never changes.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

we're going around in circles......

 

[abdul Majid]

If you believed in them you would follow them also..We do not recongnise the Quran because it contridicts the Bible on to many of our main beliefs...issues from the fall of Adam and Eve to how Sin is atoned according to God..for our Salvation, to the Death of Christ..and his second coming. Everything is so totally different from what God said in the bible. And these are the reason why you disagree with the Bible..
The two Holy book are so very different.
e.g Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, to open our hearts to him etc in secret, away from crowds etc..so we won't be like the hypocrites in the OT they wanted want everyone to know they are praying to God..so people would look up to them and see what good people they are!...that does not prove what is in your heart Jesus tells us and only God knows what is.

But He tells us if we pray in secret our Father he will reward us..where as the people who pray in the open for all to hear..they get their reward from man-kind only. Same with fasting we are to do it in secret do not tell man that you are fasting for the Father..

i beleive that you lack alot of knowledge about ISLAM ! so you should investigate before anything ! for your knowledge for truth !

we do beleive in the first two religons hellooo, and we follow what GOD has said and not those extra man made verses!!

we beleive in christ and his second coming!!

you say the Quran contradicts the Bible, well which Bible?? there many , and you DO NOT HAVE THE ORIGINAL, ONLY WHAT MAN HAS SUBSITUTED!! SO HOW CAN YOU EVEN SAY THAT?? and by the way the Bible contradicts itsself!! The Quran clears all the man made cludder from it!!

e.g Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, to open our hearts to him etc in secret, away from crowds etc..so we won't be like the hypocrites in the OT they wanted want everyone to know they are praying to God..so people would look up to them and see what good people they are!...that does not prove what is in your heart Jesus tells us and only God knows what is.

So here you say Jesus is basicly corrrecting the OT?? right !
ok thats good becuse people were mislead, just as it happened in the NT and people got mislead, then the Quran came to guide them again!!

in ISLAM it says also your not suppose to pray so people can see you and say so and so prays....our reward is with GOD alone!!

Jesus tells you only GOD knows what it is? meaning in your heart right, well he is right, GOD ONLY KNOWS THAT!!

we never diagreed with the Bible, only what people have added!!!
***GOD did not create man to leave him alone with no path to follow. Rather, GOD revealed the Books and sent Messengers to guide mankind to the Straight Path***.....