Illegal sexual intercourse in Christianity

[hanif_]

Why is this thread still open?

I agree in that I perceive Islam to be much more legalistic than Christianity.

I believe that Jesus challenged legalism severely. It was one of the reasons the scholar and religious people of his day were so opposed to him. On several recorded occasions and in his teaching did he put human need before the blind following of the Jewish laws.
Here is a beautiful example:

Peace be to you glo:

I wondered why this thread was even created because it would only create the emotions and response from Christian forum members when based upon feelings and not evidence. If illegal sexual intercourse wasn't an issue in the major religions it wouldn't have been prohibited.

Islam is a way of life.

Just as intelligent people wouldn't attribute the acts of a few to the tenets of Christianity I request that you don't attribute the application by some of what you view as a legalistic practice of Islam.

There are over 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world and are everyday people. Muslims laugh, nurture their children, work and occupy all types of professions.

Islam is based on a Theocracy (Governance by Allah's laws) but is experiencing the absence of the Khalifah (Head Muslim Ummah).

Based upon information from Christian Scholars Jesus stated in the bible
Matthew 5:17:

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


The Book of Matthew writing is attributed to Matthew. Assumed written sometime between CE 55 and 75.



There is not enough space to begin a scholarly dialogue on the history of how the separation of laws was established by Paul propagation of what Christianity is today. Paul was very literate and spoke several languages and was originally an avowed enemy of the teachings of Isa (AS) (Jesus) according to Christian history.


Laws are required to run a nation based on Theocracy verses the man created Church and State separation attributed to John Locke and some cases Thomas Jefferson.

Those forum members capable of addressing these issues are not always available and that is why some of this threads get by.



I request that the creators of these threads reread the forum rules on posting.

 

[Asiyah3]

The issue I am pondering lies exactly with your last sentence, which I highlighted in bold.

That's what I ponder greatly. And it sure makes me wonder, does marriage mean nothing to Christians?

I would be interested to hear your opinions.
(I anticipate that many Muslims may find this discussion quite irrelevant,

Glo, in my case I only try to undrestand Christianity.

 

[Asiyah3]

I am clear that I refer to 'stable and committed relationships', and I am musing whether God would consider those on a same level as marriage.

I undrestand you more now. But do you consider a typical couple being together as girlfriend-boyfriend "stable and committed relationship"?

A stable family is very much at the heart of Christian teaching,

That's what I thought

and as I said before, I cannot think of any Christian - however liberal in their views! - who would condone extra-marital affairs or open marriages or one-night-stands ...

About extra-marital affairs and open marriages you're right but about One-night-stands depends. I don't know if you meant being married+one-night-stands aren't condoned or single's practising one-night-stands? For the latter I disagree, they are no abnormity here anymore. Though regarding open marriages I'd love to hear Supreme's opinion on this matter.

I agree with you that people give up on relationships much too easily nowadays.

Being in a life-long relationship is very hard work, and requires a constant working and willingness to work with each other.

That's what I was referring to when I responded to your answer of 'stable and committed relationships'.

It includes pain, frustration and disagreements, which need even greater amounts of love, patience and grace to overcome!

Many people day have not been taught that by example - so at the first sign of difficulties or the waning of sexual attraction, they think the relationship is wrong and look elsewhere ...

Exactly. That answers many things.

That's a big problem in our society - but I am not sure that MARRIAGE alone is the answer ... :hmm:

I think you've undrestood my posts.

 

[Asiyah3]

Who is?! The question was about Christianity, and while some Christians may 'support' gay and lesbian rights

Yes, many do.

many do not.

If it weren't for this forum, I would have thought that the majority of Christians thinks homosexuality is alright.

'Rights' is also a loaded word, does it mean absence of discrimination or legality of sexual practice, or 'marriage' or the equivalent? Many support the first, but oppose the second.

Good point, Trumble

As to the other, while sexual relations with another man's wife certainly happen, it's a joke to suggest that is accepted as 'normal' behaviour in any 'Western' marriage, let alone one between practicing Christians.

True

 

[Asiyah3]

2. I think the subject of this thread betrays a very legalistic approach to religion. Christianity IMHO is not generally perceived as a legal system. The question in Christianity is one of faith and morality, not legality.

I try my best to keep this all about Christianity. But I see some telling me what is right and what not. I mosty want God's will in christianity.

 

[hanif_]

That's what I ponder greatly

I would be interested to hear your opinions.

Glo, in my case I only try to understand Christianity.

Ukh _muslim_:

Subhanallah! Astagfirullah!

we will attempt to put the best construction on your inquiry into glo's personal encounters. Attempting to understand a persons religion can be acquired via researching the internet. Thousands of sites.

The issue of requesting information regarding someones personal encounters on an Islamic forum is becoming offensive.

I plea with you to discontinue this course of inquiry. Insha Allah

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]6:68 (Y. Ali) When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]19:62 (Y. Ali) They will not there hear any vain discourse, but only salutations of Peace: And they will have therein their sustenance, morning and evening. [/FONT]

 

[Asiyah3]

I agree in that I perceive Islam to be much more legalistic than Christianity.

Oh, I think now I undrestand what Kading meant. Does this mean that I have to generally ask Christians of their opinions and views rather than looking from your religion?

I believe that Jesus challenged legalism severely.

I don't really know how to put my thoughts into words. I think if I ask you this question, it'll lighten my thoughts or at least I hope so. Do you think of Jesus (pbuh) as an example? Do you try to follow his example? :hmm: Anyone can answer this question

On several recorded occasions and in his teaching did he put human need before the blind following of the Jewish laws.

May I ask what is there contrary/may affect human need in the Jewish law?

 

[Asiyah3]

Re: Why is this thread still open?

Peace be to you glo:

I wondered why this thread was even created because it would only create the emotions and response from Christian forum members when based upon feelings and not evidence.

Yes, I notice that now. I see Christianity now in a very different way. Like I answered Kading, I wanted God's will in Christianity, but now I wonder if there is such. The only response that I've been very satisfied with till now is Eric's response. My respects to him :statisfie Thanks to him again.

If illegal sexual intercourse wasn't an issue in the major religions it wouldn't have been prohibited.

Yes, That's something that should be evident by common sense.

I request that the creators of these threads reread the forum rules on posting.

I will do that though I hope this thread will not be closed, coz' I haven't still gotten an answer to the questions I was thinking about not even the original question completely. Also as I said I might bring other matters into this thread also. And I hope to get an aswer to them. About my first question I was answered about a married person having a relationship outside marriage, but what about a single before marriage and I'll bolden this In Chistianity ... these questions of mine are very simple.

 

[Asiyah3]

Ukh _muslim_:

Subhanallah! Astagfirullah!

we will attempt to put the best construction on your inquiry into glo's personal encounters. Attempting to understand a persons religion can be acquired via researching the internet. Thousands of sites.

The issue of requesting information regarding someones personal encounters on an Islamic forum is becoming offensive.

Thank you very much for opening my eyes, I didn't realize. You're right that was very foolish and disrespectful of me! I edited my post now and I sincerily apologize. Again sorry, sorry, Glo.
I am very grateful and appreciate all of your responses. Actually when I wrote that my point was just that what Glo mentioned next already (I hadn't read it) that people don't work on their relationship enough. Sorry

JazakalLahu khairan for commenting on it :statisfie

I plea with you to discontinue this course of inquiry. Insha Allah

I'll try my best. I want to know about pre-marital relationships in Christianity though now I suspect whether there is such, also whether Jesus pbuh is an example to them.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]6:68 (Y. Ali) When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]19:62 (Y. Ali) They will not there hear any vain discourse, but only salutations of Peace: And they will have therein their sustenance, morning and evening. [/FONT]

JazakalLahu khairan, that verse made me realize.

 

[Predator]

Thanks sis Skye This aroused lots of questions into my head about Christianity.

It really makes me wonder if all sins have been forgiven then what is the idea of doing good deeds? What is the idea of this and that being "forbidden"?

I find Christianity to be very unjust. Just believe in Jesus (pbuh) and you'll go to Heaven without punishment coz sins have been forgiven? So if one only says I believe in Jesus as God/Son of God then he goes to heaven? What is the Idea of all this? I'm sorry but I don't see any logic in Christianity at all :hmm: Why does Jesus (pbuh) have to pay for other's sins? (I think this may have been discussed but I don't remember)

Yeah christianity is unjust to the people before Jesus, as the only course to salvation was to accept the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh) only 2000 years and the law of Moses is worthless, therefore, God did not see fit to allow those born before Jesus (pbuh) including countless previous prophets to enter paradise, but rather allowed them to remain stained with the sin of Adam and gave them a very strict and disciplined law that was totally useless and could never relieve them of this hereditary stain and that These people would never receive true salvation.

Crucifixion and Salvation through Jesus is a fiction invented by the polytheist trinitarian pagans nearly 300 years after Jesus (PBUH) departed to heaven who only follow conjecture (fiction). Quran 4:157

Back on topic

'And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.' Matthew 19: 9.

“The adulterer fornicator marries not but an adulteress fornicatress or a Mushrikah; and the adulteress –fornicatress, none marries her except an adulterer — fornicater or a Mushrik. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islamic Monotheism)”

[al-Nur 24:3]

Mathew 5
30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away

And they follow the practice of cutting off the hands for theft in arabia, thus following the laws of Jesus.

 

[Asiyah3]

Yeah christianity is unjust to the people before Jesus, as the only course to salvation was to accept the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh) only 2000 years and the law of Moses is worthless, therefore, God did not see fit to allow those born before Jesus (pbuh) including countless previous prophets to enter paradise, but rather allowed them to remain stained with the sin of Adam and gave them a very strict and disciplined law that was totally useless and could never relieve them of this hereditary stain and that These people would never receive true salvation.

Very true... Why did I not think of that? :hmm:

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.' Matthew 19: 9.

Can someone explain this verse for me, please?

And they follow the practice of cutting off the hands for theft in arabia, thus following the laws of Jesus.

Yeah, I found that verse pretty interesting.

 

[Amadeus85]

It is a place to say important thing - No christian nowadays should say what christianity says about this or that. Not now, after the eastern schism and especially after (so called) reformation.

We can not speak against facts ladies and gentlemen. How I, roman catholic, can say what pentecostals, baptists, anabaptists, anglicans and methodists say about sexual intercourse?
Nothing.
Just like baptists, anglican, methodist can't say what christianity say about this or that, because they don't even make majority of christians in the world.

Unless we agree that christianity are divided into three major groups - catholics, orthodox and protestants, making such topics has no sense at all.

This topic should be named like this - What protestants say about...or What catholics say about... or What orthodox say about.

Otherwise making such topics has completely no sense. That's my opinion.

After reformation there is no one christianity, it is a sad fact.

The roman- catholic opinion of sexual intercourse, just like opinion of using contraception and abortion is same like 100 years ago and it will stay unchangeable for the rest of this world. It's forbidden.

 

[Asiyah3]

It is a place to say important thing - No christian nowadays should say what christianity says about this or that. Not now, after the eastern schism and especially after (so called) reformation.

We can not speak against facts ladies and gentlemen. How I, roman catholic, can say what pentecostals, baptists, anabaptists, anglicans and methodists say about sexual intercourse?
Nothing.
Just like baptists, anglican, methodist can't say what christianity say about this or that, because they don't even make majority of christians in the world.

Unless we agree that christianity are divided into three major groups - catholics, orthodox and protestants, making such topics has no sense at all.

This topic should be named like this - What protestants say about...or What catholics say about... or What orthodox say about.

Otherwise making such topics has completely no sense. That's my opinion.

After reformation there is no one christianity, it is a sad fact.

The roman- catholic opinion of sexual intercourse, just like opinion of using contraception and abortion is same like 100 years ago and it will stay unchangeable for the rest of this world. It's forbidden.

Oh, that's something I didn't consider at all. Maybe because I thought you all follow the Bible.

Then I'll spell it like this:

1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

Premarital sex?

 

[Asiyah3]

I think this thread is a bit messy, so I'll try to summerize my questions:

1. Now I've got an answer that extra-marital affairs are forbidden in Christianity.

-What if the couple decides to have an "open-marriage"? Sorry I don't know the right term

2. 1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

Premarital sex?

4. Do you think of Jesus's way of doing things (pbuh) as an "example"/"way of life"/teaching? Do you try to follow his example?

 

[Supreme]

About extra-marital affairs and open marriages you're right but about One-night-stands depends. I don't know if you meant being married+one-night-stands aren't condoned or single's practising one-night-stands? For the latter I disagree, they are no abnormity here anymore. Though regarding open marriages I'd love to hear Supreme's opinion on this matter.

OK, here's my opinion on the matter:

Adultery is a sin. The Bible makes this very clear on several occasions. The liberal Christian, such as myself, can't try and sugercoat this fact or say it's OK so long as the adulterers aren't married. My opinion is that open marriages, pre marital relationship sex and post marital sex is wrong.

However, here's where my opinion differs to more conservative Christians: I don't think it's that bad. Sure, it's prohibited, but I believe it's a pretty minor sin in the general scheme of things. It's like that school rule about running in the corriders- it's about something minor, and it isn't actually very serious at all, despite being prohibited. It's a worm when compared to other sins- murder, pedophilia, rape, theft, worshipping other gods etc are all far worse.

 

[Supreme]

Oh, that's something I didn't consider at all. Maybe because I thought you all follow the Bible.

Then I'll spell it like this:

1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

Premarital sex?

There's also the views of Anglicans (which is a cross between Catholicism and Protestantism), non denominational Christians and non Trinitarian Christians, although these groups, though still large, are not as large as the massive three groups in Christianity. But I really don't think denominations differ with regard to their views on the matter, but it's more to do with whether you're liberal or conservative.

 

[Asiyah3]

OK, here's my opinion on the matter:

Adultery is a sin. The Bible makes this very clear on several occasions. The liberal Christian, such as myself, can't try and sugercoat this fact or say it's OK so long as the adulterers aren't married. My opinion is that open marriages, pre marital relationship sex and post marital sex is wrong.

However, here's where my opinion differs to more conservative Christians: I don't think it's that bad. Sure, it's prohibited, but I believe it's a pretty minor sin in the general scheme of things. It's like that school rule about running in the corriders- it's about something minor, and it isn't actually very serious at all, despite being prohibited. It's a worm when compared to other sins- murder, pedophilia, rape, theft, worshipping other gods etc are all far worse.

Thank you for that very comprehensive answer :statisfie I knew your view would be interesting

 

[Amadeus85]

I think this thread is a bit messy, so I'll try to summerize my questions:


-What if the couple decides to have an "open-marriage"? Sorry I don't know the right term

2. 1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

There is no such thing as open marriage in roman catholicism. Marriage is a holy sacrament, between one man and one woman.

BTW the orthodox usually say about morality what catholics do. We differ mostly about the authority of the pope.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Why is this thread still open?

I wondered why this thread was even created because it would only create the emotions and response from Christian forum members when based upon feelings and not evidence. If illegal sexual intercourse wasn't an issue in the major religions it wouldn't have been prohibited.

I think it is a mistake to pose this question in terms of "legality". While we all wish to live by a moral law, quite plainly the law is itself niether moral nor immoral, but amoral. Only people are moral. What the law allows is by definition legal, but the morality of what it allows is determined not by the law but by God.

Now, in my reading of scripture God has declared both in the Old and the New Testaments that sex outside of the marriage covenant is a sin. That is a moral judgment, not a legal one. The question as to whether sex outside of marriage is going to be legal or illegal for a Christian is going to vary depening on when and where they live because the law which defines what is and is not legal is written by human beings and varies accordingly. But the question as to whether or not sex outside of marriage is a moral or immoral act is determined in accordance with God's values not man's law. Certainly people may vary in their own interpretation of what God has revealed, and I recognize that there are instances where God has revealed different standards of behaviors for different groups of people. There are several examples of this: Jews could enter the temple but non-Jews could not. Men could be priests in Judaism but women could not. A woman having her menstrual cycle is restricted from some activities that are free for others to participate in. And another item where a behavior is allowed for some but restricted for others appears to be that people living in a married covenant can have intimate sexual relations and those who are not cannot.

Now do all persons who claim to be adherents of a particular faith actually keep the proscriptions of their faith? No. In fact I know of none that do perfectly. And that some in this thread have cited those who ignore the teachings of the Christian faith and choose to do their own thing and be sexually promiscuous as being representative of Christianity I find offensive. Surely, those same people would be offended if I were to post some of the dispicable websites that advertize to lascivious sensualities of Muslim men as being indicative of the moral character of your typical Muslim. The standard may be an ideal, and it is a shame that in this particular case it is indeed far too often unmet, but it still remains the standard.

Others have already shared the biblical verses here. Let me share what the express discipline (rule) of my church is: "celibacy in singleness and fidelity in marriage."

As far as the additional question that has cropped up in this thread regarding the definition of marriage, we (United Methodists) recognize any that are legally sanctioned by the proper authorities of the government of the land and/or a duly constituted minister of the gospel operating within the bounds of his authority, with the exception that we do not authoize any United Methodist clergy to solemnize or otherwise constitute giving blessing to a homosexual wedding. Whether we should recognize homosexual unions that might be legally entered into apart from us is a new enough issue that we have not formally discussed it and thus have no church law established with regard to it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

If it weren't for this forum, I would have thought that the majority of Christians thinks homosexuality is alright.

A big mistake that I believe takes place in the world at large, not just among Muslims, but even within the church, is not enough attention to the source of data on which conclusions are reached. This is especially a problem with regard to Christianity when people make judgments about it based on say the overall culture of a country which is believed to be majority Christian.

For example while in the USA probably 80% of the population self-identifies as Christian, a far smaller percentage actually is active in practicing their faith. This means that Christian influence on the culture is not the dominate force that it may be perceived to be. And so what is culturally acceptable is often mistakenly considered condoned by Christianity, when in fact we who take our faith seriously are actually opposed to it. Yet, and here is the hypocricsy which I suppose all human beings from time to time fall into, though on the one hand opposed to that which pervades our culture we are not immune to it, may sin, and still be guilty of it as well.