Imitating Disbelievers: A Khutbah By Shiekh Saud Ash-Shuraim

[NazariteofEhyah]

Do you eat meat? If yes, we have meat samosas
Are you a veggie kind of dude? If yes, we have veggie samosas.

Try going to the next muslim party you are invited to. Who know's maybe you will meet some new and awesome people. At the very least, you'll get free food.

No, I do not eat meat. I am a vegetarian.

Your saying that Nazarite's I know are not awesome?

 

[Far7an]

No, I do not eat meat. I am a vegetarian.

Your saying that Nazarite's I know are not awesome?

Amirsaab never said that, and I'm sure if you read his posts you would know that it's not in his nature to even imply anything of the sort .

 

[aamirsaab]

No, I do not eat meat. I am a vegetarian.

No problemo, we have veggie samosas too.

Your saying that Nazarite's I know are not awesome?

Nope. I'm saying you could meet more awesome people.
Example:
I know awesome people who happen to be Hindu.
I also know awesome people who happen to be Sikh, Christian, Aethiest, african-american, chinese.
I therefore know a large amount of awesome people.

If awesome people are like chocolates, then I am Mr Willy Wonka.

 

[NazariteofEhyah]

No problemo, we have veggie samosas too.



Nope. I'm saying you could meet more awesome people.
Example:
I know awesome people who happen to be Hindu.
I also know awesome people who happen to be Sikh, Christian, Aethiest, african-american, chinese.
I therefore know a large amount of awesome people.

If awesome people are like chocolates, then I am Mr Willy Wonka.

Sorry, caps amount to idolatry!

I'd rather not use awesome, but humble.

 

[NazariteofEhyah]

Amirsaab never said that, and I'm sure if you read his posts you would know that it's not in his nature to even imply anything of the sort .

Forgive me of this trespass. Maybe the later of mhy post, I my thoughts were not truely positive.

 

[Thinker]

Ok for the ''division'' part. Yes, it does create a division. But, .

You can but all you like - division is division and a divided communtiy is not good and attempting to immitate the life style and dress of a 7C warring tribe on the basis that you can be recognised as different from the enemy is not going to win any friends amongst your neighbours.

 

[aamirsaab]

You can but all you like - division is division and a divided communtiy is not good and attempting to immitate the life style and dress of a 7C warring tribe on the basis that you can be recognised as different from the enemy is not going to win any friends amongst your neighbours.

If you are complaining about a 'them and us' attitude, you can stop since all communities, ideologies and religions have a them and us attitude - Islam is just a little more upfront about it.

Besides, I don't see how not imitating the disbelievers is detrimental to society when what is not being imitated are the following:
* Adultery
* Alcohol consumption
* Gambling.

Oh and dresscode? It's not about being different from the enemy (neccessarily) - it's about covering yourself and blending in.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

If you are complaining about a 'them and us' attitude, you can stop since all communities, ideologies and religions have a them and us attitude - Islam is just a little more upfront about it.

I agree with Thinker.

I can't think of a more explicitly divisive major ideology than Islam. Can you?

Peace

 

[alcurad]

rather, people's attitudes towards it are the problem, muslims and non-muslims alike, truth is hard to swallow, culture not so-for most-.

 

[Thinker]

Besides, I don't see how not imitating the disbelievers is detrimental to society when what is not being imitated are the following:
* Adultery
* Alcohol consumption
* Gambling.

What's that got to do with what you wear?

Oh and dresscode? It's not about being different from the enemy (neccessarily) - it's about covering yourself and blending in.

Blending in with whom?

 

[Muezzin]

You can but all you like - division is division and a divided communtiy is not good and attempting to immitate the life style and dress of a 7C warring tribe on the basis that you can be recognised as different from the enemy is not going to win any friends amongst your neighbours.

And imitating the lifestyle and dress of a 21 Century warring country will?

I really don't get why people daring to dress differently is such a big issue. It's one of those to which I can only reply 'Get out more'.

For the record, I tend to wear 'Western' style clothing. Not like a cowboy (can't find a decent hat), but not like a stereotypical Arab terrorist shouting 'Dirka dirka' either. People can dress how they wish, so long as they're covering what needs to be covered, and aren't attracting undue attention to themselves. As that can get a bit obnoxious.

It would turn out that I wouldn't. Everytime a Muslim colleaque invites me to a event, I never do come. I am not a Muslim so I would stand out

Aw man. I hope my non-Muslim friends don't have that attitude when I invite them to my eventual wedding. I mean, there would be laddoos and everything!

 

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


I agree with Thinker.

I can't think of a more explicitly divisive major ideology than Islam. Can you?

Peace

As I said: Islam is just more upfront about it.

What's that got to do with what you wear?

Nothing, I was talking about them and us attitude and why in Islam it shouldn't be a problem.

Blending in with whom?

Society. For the most part it works - it's just some folk want to make a big deal out of a hijabi or niqabi because God forbid women have an identity that is contrary to social norm!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

As I said: Islam is just more upfront about it.

So do you think that encouraging division among people (in an upfront way or otherwise) is generally a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?


Peace

 

[Thinker]

And imitating the lifestyle and dress of a 21 Century warring country will?

In the 21C western world the warriors wear uniform identifying themselves as soldiers

QUOTE=Muezzin;1121584]I really don't get why people daring to dress differently is such a big issue. It's one of those to which I can only reply 'Get out more'.
[/QUOTE]

Because it's divisive and most people think division is a bad thing.

 

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


So do you think that encouraging division among people (in an upfront way or otherwise) is generally a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?


Peace

Depends on the type of division. If it's akin to slavery, then no of course not. But, if the division is to the betterment of society then clearly it is not a bad thing.

Typically, human nature dictates a them and us attitude for safety reasons (more than anything else anyway) and that isn't a problem. What is a problem is if that division causes hostility. Then, clearly, it is problematic.

Again I'd like to reiterrate, Islam is a full system. Analysing one particular aspect in and of itself and then getting hot and bothered about it is silly. Take it as a complete system and it will make sense.

 

[Muezzin]

In the 21C western world the warriors wear uniform identifying themselves as soldiers

Yet you generalising Arab dress is okay?

I mean, by that same token, you're saying all traditional Arab dress is that of 7C Arab tribal warriors. Which is ignorant, offensive, and hilarious.

I really don't get why people daring to dress differently is such a big issue. It's one of those to which I can only reply 'Get out more'.

Because it's divisive and most people think division is a bad thing.

Apart from maths teachers...

Anyway, is a Sikh being divisive when he wears a turban and a beard? Is a Jew being divisive when he wears a skullcap, or a hat, a long coat and a beard? Is a nun being divisive when she wears a habit? Is a monk being divisive when he wears a robe and takes a vow of silence? Are the Hare Krishnas by McDonald's being divisive when they dress in their own way and sing their own songs to passersby? Are Goths being divisive when they dress in black and are generally Goth-like?

If you can't stand people being different, then say so, but being different is not in and of itself divisive. Saying that it is makes you look like a bit of an out-of-touch, intolerant wazzock.

As to your notion of 'All division is bad' - try explaining that when you intentionally use the Ladies' toilets.

As to 'most people think'... ad populum much?

Greetings,


So do you think that encouraging division among people (in an upfront way or otherwise) is generally a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?


Peace

I know you're not asking me, but I'm answering because... because... I can.

That question doesn't really have a simple answer. It depends on the division itself, why it is encouraged, whether it promotes emnity or simply represents an alternative form of expression etc.

People dressing differently to the norm is, to my mind, an extremely trivial difference to call promoting a negative division. I tend to perceive a person who thinks that such trivia promotes negative division as pretty close-minded yet with the good taste to have a limitless supply of Werther's Originals. But I suppose that says more about me - though if I ate too many boiled sweets my dentist would have a fit while checking my gnashers.

 

[Thinker]

People dressing differently to the norm is, to my mind, an extremely trivial difference to call promoting a negative division. I tend to perceive a person who thinks that such trivia promotes negative division as pretty close-minded .

You are missing the point (purposely I suspect). There is nothing wrong with dressing differently there is something wrong with making a conscious decision to dressing differently than other groups just to make a visual point that you are different – that is divisive.

And returning to your reply to my quote . . . . .
I despair because I love my country and want all the citizens of that country to live in peace and harmony and work together towards common goals aimed at providing us with a secure and prosperous future.

You said: Is that so? From reading your posts, I think that you want people to conform to your own personal standards of The Way Things Ought To Be, and if they don't, they are not to be tolerated. Or rather, a cause for 'despair'.

Response . . . .My personal standards; I encourage, integration, unity, peace and tolerance those are my standards and I urge others to conform to those standards. If my neighbours advocate segregation, disunity and intolerance I consider that intolerable. What part of that do you object to?

 

[wth1257]

Yep it does. But I don't see how anyone would not want to go to a samosa party. Unless you happen to hate triangle-shaped pastry.

:raging::raging::raging:

I always found triangles to be the most smug of all the geometric forms

:raging::raging::raging:

 

[Muezzin]

You are missing the point (purposely I suspect).

Look who's talking.

There is nothing wrong with dressing differently there is something wrong with making a conscious decision to dressing differently than other groups just to make a visual point that you are different – that is divisive.

And I could point you to a load of 'non-comformist' type non-Muslims who dress differently for exactly that reason - to appear different from the norm. Somehow I doubt you would find these people a threat to integration, unity, peace, and strength in numbers (TM).

I wouldn't find them a threat at all. Let people dress the way they want, so long as they comply with the law. What do you find so hard to understand about that?

And, really, saying people who dress differently for the sake of being different are divisive buttholes is one of the most absurd, Daily Mail-esque tirades I've heard in a long time.

As for disliking people 'making a visual point that they're different'? I don't suppose you're very well acquanited with the world of women's fashion. I suppose all involved are being divisive and are a threat to Strength through Unity, Unity through Faith.

Am I still missing your point, or simply disagreeing with it?

Or in your mind, are those two outcomes indistinguishable?

And, more to the point, which of these single paragraphs will you choose to reply to, and how many of them will you completely ignore? Come back, next post, same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel.

And returning to your reply to my quote . . . . .
I despair because I love my country and want all the citizens of that country to live in peace and harmony and work together towards common goals aimed at providing us with a secure and prosperous future.

You said: Is that so? From reading your posts, I think that you want people to conform to your own personal standards of The Way Things Ought To Be, and if they don't, they are not to be tolerated. Or rather, a cause for 'despair'.

Response . . . .My personal standards; I encourage, integration, unity, peace and tolerance those are my standards and I urge others to conform to those standards. If my neighbours advocate segregation, disunity and intolerance I consider that intolerable. What part of that do you object to?

The part where anyone with a dissenting opinion of what constitutes integration, unity and peace is painted as a hypocritical advocate of segregation, disunity and intolerance.

In essence you are saying: 'I don't like the way these people dress. They are Bad People for dressing that way, for that reason. They should dress the way I like them to dress, for the reasons I like. Then they will be Good People.'

In essence I am saying: 'Don't be ridiculous. Get out more and open your mind. You'll be a happier person.'

Also - love how you completely ignored this little snippet:

'Anyway, is a Sikh being divisive when he wears a turban and a beard? Is a Jew being divisive when he wears a skullcap, or a hat, a long coat and a beard? Is a nun being divisive when she wears a habit? Is a monk being divisive when he wears a robe and takes a vow of silence? Are the Hare Krishnas by McDonald's being divisive when they dress in their own way and sing their own songs to passersby? Are Goths being divisive when they dress in black and are generally Goth-like?'

Great tactics. If you don't like what the other guy is saying, just accuse him of deliberately missing the point and ignore any points that damage your own. Consider a career in politics.

 

[YusufNoor]

You are missing the point (purposely I suspect). There is nothing wrong with dressing differently there is something wrong with making a conscious decision to dressing differently than other groups just to make a visual point that you are different – that is divisive.

And returning to your reply to my quote . . . . .
I despair because I love my country and want all the citizens of that country to live in peace and harmony and work together towards common goals aimed at providing us with a secure and prosperous future.

You said: Is that so? From reading your posts, I think that you want people to conform to your own personal standards of The Way Things Ought To Be, and if they don't, they are not to be tolerated. Or rather, a cause for 'despair'.

Response . . . .My personal standards; I encourage, integration, unity, peace and tolerance those are my standards and I urge others to conform to those standards. If my neighbours advocate segregation, disunity and intolerance I consider that intolerable. What part of that do you object to?

hmmmm,

Religions:
Definition Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order
Roman Catholic 83%-88%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 5%-10%, unaffiliated 4%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fr.html


then how can you be agnostic in a country that is over 80% Roman Catholic?

are you trying to be divisive?

you need to run out and buy some statues and crosses. you can put some of them near your lawn jockey. get ready for some Hail Mary's and Our Fathers. and rosaries, you need some of them!

and that Catholic Church has always been so peaceful....

ooh, and confession! you need to go see some guy in a funny suit, don't forget to call him daddy! or father or something; he's waiting for you, IN HIS DRESS, to go confess to him your sins!

run along now and be a good little conformist!

and, btw, the Pope doesn't like you interacting with Muslims, so i reckon you'll need to be off to some pron sites! don't worry though, you can confess later.

on Friday, skip the fish too, OK?

:rollseyes