In what sense is Jesus (as) God's "Son"?

[Grace Seeker]

If Jesus wanted to assert his authority to forgive sins, a more fitting setting would have been when the adulteress was brought by the Pharisees in John 8

Maybe he would have if that event had actually ever happened. There is no record of this particular passage (John 7:53-8:11) in not just the earliest copies we have of the Gospel of John, but even later ones. The first time a church father even bothers to comment on it is in the 12th century. There is unanimous agreement on textual scholars that this particular pericope may have existed alongside as a part of oral tradition, but it wasn't in the original writing of John's gospel. I wish that modern publishers would just leave it out of the copies of the Bible they print, or do what the RSV did and print it only in a footnote. But because it was in the KJV, people are so use to hearing it that they can't give up one of their favorite texts even if it isn't original; I guess it would feel too much like ripping a page out of one's Bible. But in this case it would actually be the right thing to do.

 

[MustafaMc]

The capacity to forgive sin seems Divine to me, hence my exception to the Catholic confessional. ...or if in fact the priest is acting in the capacity that Jesus did as God's vicegerent.

 

[The Khan]

It's simple Akhee...no right to forgive, no job. Especially since all the sacirifical rites disappeared once the pagan religions were banned...the former pagan priests had to adapt to the new religion which they corrupted.

 

[Grace Seeker]

It's simple Akhee...no right to forgive, no job. Especially since all the sacirifical rites disappeared once the pagan religions were banned...the former pagan priests had to adapt to the new religion which they corrupted.

Please name one former pagan priest who became a Catholic priest. Until you can back that claim up, I ask you to quit making it.

You also show ignorance with regarding what it is that Catholic priests actually do. As Mustafa indicates, the don't forgive themselves. He called them viceregents. That's certainly closer to what happens, though I'm not sure that Catholics would even agree with that terminology. What they do is proclaim the forgivness offered by Christ. It is God in Christ who grants forgiveness; no human being can do that, but we can remind people what it is that God can and does do.

Surely, if Muslims can quote the book that was written by people who heard what Muhammad claimed that he was told that an angel received from Allah, then Christians can proclaim the forgiveness which we read Christ offers in scripture.

 

[Oleander]

Even IF Jesus was day and night forgiving sins, still who gave him the authority to do so?

My manager, buy and sell, open and close, count the money and take them to the bank, hire and fire, make order.....ect.

Is he the owner of my business?

Is he equal to me in the ownership of my buismess?

NO, because I TOLD HIM TO DO WHAT HE DOES.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Even IF Jesus was day and night forgiving sins, still who gave him the authority to do so?

Hence the whole point of the story told in Luke. Jesus knows that anyone can just say, "Your sins are forgiven, and that only God actually has the authority to do so. So, to show that his authority is in fact that of God he does one other thing that only God can do, he heals the man.

Now, those that say that Jesus could have done this healing not in his own power, but in that of God are also exactly right. But what they have yet to provide is any compelling reason why God would heal a person that Jesus was pointing to as proof that he, Jesus, was in fact able to forgive sins just as God is unless God wanted to back him up in that claim. So, it seems to me that the healing is proof that not only was Jesus claiming to be God, but that God was in fact backing him up with regard to that assertion.

 

[MustafaMc]

Doesn't it seem odd for Jesus to forgive an apparently unrepentant sinner who came seeking not to be forgiven, but rather to be healed of paralysis?

It is like a woman who is starving in an area stricken by famine and is coming to a distribution center to get some food from a man that was distributing aid. The man instead gives her a brand new luxury car to make a point that he is also rich in addition to being the distributor of aid. Then after the point is made, he then gives the woman the bag of rice that she was wanting all along. There is no indication that the woman wanted the car in the first place.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Doesn't it seem odd for Jesus to forgive an apparently unrepentant sinner who came seeking not to be forgiven, but rather to be healed of paralysis?

Yeah. Many of the things that Jesus is reported to have done seem odd to me from my vantage point today. I could make some hypothesis about Jesus knowing that the man needed forgiveness, that perhaps it was the man's sins that were at the root even of his paralysis. But whether my hypothesis is right or not it would not make Jesus' actions any less odd from my position as an outside observer. It also wouldn't make his granting of forgiveness and his healing of the man's paralysis any less real.

 

[MustafaMc]

Yeah. Many of the things that Jesus is reported to have done seem odd to me from my vantage point today. ... It also wouldn't make his granting of forgiveness and his healing of the man's paralysis any less real.

My point about it being odd and the example of the starving woman was to raise the question as to whether or not the forgiveness portion ever really happened or if Jesus even said those words in any setting. If one were to forgive another of sin, then it makes sense to know what sins are being forgiven along the lines of a Catholic's confession to his priest.

It goes back to your statement, "Islam's only option, it would seem, is to deny that the recorded events ever happened."

 

[Oleander]

So, it seems to me that the healing is proof that not only was Jesus claiming to be God, but that God was in fact backing him up with regard to that assertion.

>>Backing him up?

We agree all other prophet did thier miracle by "backing" of God.

Are they all gods?

We are talking about a man who claim :"NOTHING", I do or I say is on my own.

 

[Grace Seeker]

>>Backing him up?

We agree all other prophet did thier miracle by "backing" of God.

Are they all gods?

We are talking about a man who claim :"NOTHING", I do or I say is on my own.

No, because they never made the claims of offering forgiveness associated with it. While nothing was in Jesus' own power, that is he depended on the presence of God's Spirit, Jesus still dared to make the suggestion that he could forgive sins. Such a claim is something known to Jesus and all present this is reserved to God alone to do. Thus, if he had no authority to do that, then why would the Father grant this miraculous healing that validates his act of in essence claiming to be God?

 

[INsearch]

Arguably the most famous and widely known verse in the whole NT is John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

In what sense of the words was Jesus (as) the "only begotten Son" of God?

beget (begotten inflected form of beget)
1 : to procreate as the father : sire
2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

We know that God did not beget or "sire" Jesus in the way that I did my own son, but the second definition may apply. Could God have produced (or created) Jesus as an "effect" from Himself? As in saying the word, "Be" from whence he "was".

In what sense of the word is Jesus God's "son"?

son
1 a: a human male offspring especially of human beings b: a male adopted child c: a human male descendant
2capitalized : the second person of the Trinity
3: a person closely associated with or deriving from a formative agent (as a nation, school, or race)

The definition 1a and 1c have been excluded from the definition of beget above because we know that God did not copulate with Mary (astaghfir'Allah). I also assume that God did not legally adopt Jesus. Although adoption has some benefit to the adopter and the adoptee, there is still no biological connection between the two and the one is not really the son of the other.

Definition 2 should be excluded because it relies upon a nebulous term, "Trinity" as the essential element and because it is a circular argument.

What about door #3? Could Jesus (as) have derived (or been created from) from a previously existing formative agent, known as God?

...but then again, I have heard Christians say that Jesus (as) was not really the "Son of God", but rather fully God Himself. However, how does one reconcile this with Matthew 3:16-17? After being baptized, Jesus (Son) came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he (Son) saw the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) descending as a dove and lighting on him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens (Father) said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Well Jesus is suppose to be the Son of God but also God himself does that make sense? its the whole idea of the trinity 3 in one. I dont know how to say this but its like... God put himself in Mary:-[ (sorry I dont know how to explain it for Christians you could say it is the mystery of God) and Mary gave birth to Jesus thus making him his Son but also God himself^o) he even sits on the right side of God.... its all really confusing as in Christianity the Trinity is one of the most difficult things to understand. (please dont take me word for word on this tho... I am just giving my own little shot on explaining it lol)

 

[seeker-of-light]

are not we all sons and daughters of allah? we were all created from him and we will all return to him in time.

 

[MustafaMc]

are not we all sons and daughters of allah?

In what sense of the words "sons and daughters" do you mean? My understanding is that this implies some kind of equality with Allah that is not there.

we were all created from him and we will all return to him in time.

Yes, we are His creations and to Him we will return. We were created to worship Allah, as servant to Master.