Inexperienced Muslim's Argument against Atheist Professor

[Idris]

The thing about debating an academic is that they are usually well-prepared for it. It is part of what they do. Their minds are usually set in stone too, because no matter how much academics say they are open to new possibilities, the truth is that in most cases they are not open-minded at all. To approach an academic from the standpoint of a person of faith is usually a losing proposition, because the points of reference are alien to the other.

My advice would be to take snakeleg's suggestion and simply smile and wish him the best.

This is what I say to.

 

[Gator]

To the OP -

I would start off by asking is he claiming that since the the Quran has so called inaccuracies (which have nothing to do with morality), that the idea of not killing and giving stuff to the poor is wrong? I think he's actually trying to attack the basic authority of the Quran, but this would put him on the defensive.

Also, if he brings up the inaccuracies I would ask him to quote the specific reference. When he probably can't you can tell him he has no idea about the Quran. That should shut him down that way.

If he can, you may be screwed. Just tell him that is interesting and that you'll research it, but then look up the apologetics for the quote and give the refutation next time you talk. Don't take what he says off the cuff as authoritative in any way and don't try to refute right then if you are not prepared.

It sounds like you have a non-adversarial relationship in general if you've had these multiple talks. I'd say keep talking and at the very least it should bolster your knowledge of Islam.

Those are my thoughts anyway. Good luck.

 

[islamirama]

The thing about debating an academic is that they are usually well-prepared for it. It is part of what they do. Their minds are usually set in stone too, because no matter how much academics say they are open to new possibilities, the truth is that in most cases they are not open-minded at all. To approach an academic from the standpoint of a person of faith is usually a losing proposition, because the points of reference are alien to the other.

My advice would be to take snakeleg's suggestion and simply smile and wish him the best.

I would have to agree with that, unless he's one of those retards that just won't shut up no matter what. Which i think is the case since he's an academic.

in that case just say this....

Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)to these Mushrikun and Kafirun): "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!

"I worship not that which you worship,

"Nor will you worship that which I worship.

"And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

"Nor will you worship that which I worship.

"To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."

Surah Kaffiroun

 

[جوري]

The thing about debating an academic is that they are usually well-prepared for it. It is part of what they do. Their minds are usually set in stone too, because no matter how much academics say they are open to new possibilities, the truth is that in most cases they are not open-minded at all. To approach an academic from the standpoint of a person of faith is usually a losing proposition, because the points of reference are alien to the other.

My advice would be to take snakeleg's suggestion and simply smile and wish him the best.

I second that, though I seldom agree with Keltoi (when it comes to religion or politics) I have great respect for his opinion..


peace!

 

[wilberhum]

First i would report him to the administration,and i would take many students with you for support and backing. He can disagree all he wants but do it in a professional manner, not in an arrogant, ignorant and disrespectful manner.

...

Wow, did you read the first post? Do you not understand?

I always try to debate with my teacher after class

The kid starts it. Why does the teacher not have the right to answer the kid with his honest openion? After all it is after class.


(But your signiture is better)

 

[sudais1]

Atheism has way too much flaws and isn't 100% proved especially in the fossil department.

Ask him to give you concrete proof in every department. Even Darwin said that there were some flaws with his theories. and that's when he loses everything

Then Explain that he has no Idea what the Quran is and misquotes the Quran from Anti Muslim sites. Give him verses from the Quran and explain them to him so his closed mind may open

 

[wilberhum]

Atheism has way too much flaws and isn't 100% proved especially in the fossil department.

Atheism and fossils. Is that like fish and bicycles? What are you on about?

 

[Jayda]

Hey guys like the title says, I always try to debate with my teacher after class on things in philosophy but when we inevitably get into religion, because I cite that as my reasons for not doing things like killing and giving stuff to the poor, he starts off by saying that the Quran has errors like the setting the sun in a certain place, claiming taht Allah says taht all christians are my enemy, saying that the Quran claims that the earth was created before the stars and that the universe was made in six stages and that it was smoke in the begiinning then saying taht these are inaccuracies. He always finishes off by saying that we don't need God to tell us what is right and what isnt ( I tried to tell him taht this was moral relativism, taht those "inaccuracies"" he claims to point out are not what the Quran says) and today told me that in one part of the Quran God says that he would smite anyone who says he doesnt exist and started saying to the sky "God does not exist" then saying that nothing happened. By the way for you christians he claimed Jesus ( he is an ex- christian) was schizophrenic.


I know I am rambling alittle but I know in my heart that he is wrong but I really need help in responding to this stuff, especially the "we dont need God" part

Thanks brothers and sisters!

hola,

lol don't take it too much to heart, you are describing every one of my professors from college. i think sometimes academic people can become too lost in their thoughts...

he's using a logical fallacy called 'begging the question' when he asks you that. it's when you assume your conclusion (what he ultimately wants to prove) through one of the premises (one of the axioms accepted as true, from which a conclusion is derived). premises do not have to be outwardly stated, sometimes they are 'assumed' or implied. a classic example of this logical fallacy is "we must do something to curb violence on campus!" ... which ultimately seeks to establish that it is a fact there is violence on campus... simply by stating that there is violence on campus in the implied premise.

it's fact by fiat

when he says "we don't need God to tell us what is right or wrong" he is (from the start) assuming but not proving that God is something created out of necessity, rather than something which already exists and already sets the rules regardless of our thoughts on the matter, which is your point.

you could just as easily respond to him "since He is God we have no choice but to assent to what He says is right and wrong" you would both be employing the logical fallacy in the same manner... making you equally unvalid.

next time you have the debate just remind him it's a logical fallacy... it's a strong point because it doesn't hurt your argument that morality founded upon a divine authority is superior to morality founded upon agreement, and it weakens (in my opinion destroys) his argument about 'needing God' by exposing it as nothing more than a restatement of his proposition, as opposed to a genuine logical conclusion.

Que Dios te bendiga

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey guys like the title says, I always try to debate with my teacher after class on things in philosophy but when we inevitably get into religion, because I cite that as my reasons for not doing things like killing and giving stuff to the poor, he starts off by saying that the Quran has errors

If you think you won't have the answers, i think its better you study the religion abit more in depth first insha Allah. May Allah help you and us all, ameen.

like the setting the sun in a certain place,

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people...

[Qur'an - Surah Al Kahf 18 : 86]

http://quranicrealm.com/quran.php?q=18


​

This is what alot of anti Islamic people use to attack Islam, claiming that the sun sets when science proves otherwise. There is no error in the Qur'an, its simply a figure of speech. The same way we know today that the sun does not set, yet people still use the word 'sunset' and 'sunrise.' There is no error, but those who hate Islam will do anything to try to discredit it, even though their own cultural or linguistic figure of speech is similar.

claiming taht Allah says taht all christians are my enemy,

Nope, not all non muslims are enemies;


At the time of the Messenger of Allah, there were some christians who gave refuge to Muslims in Abysinnia [ethiopia] so the following verse was revealed;

..you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.

[Qur'an 5:82]


​

Anyway, this verse is important also;

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

[Qur'an 60:8]
​

saying that the Quran claims that the earth was created before the stars and that the universe was made in six stages and that it was smoke in the begiinning then saying taht these are inaccuracies.

These links are all relevant insha Allah;

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-c.htm

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=829&main_cat_id=31

today told me that in one part of the Quran God says that he would smite anyone who says he doesnt exist and started saying to the sky "God does not exist" then saying that nothing happened.

Allah doesn't simply destroy a people because they deny His existence, rather He gives them trials in this life so they may return to Him, since humans are by nature dependant upon a greater power.

And verily, We will make them taste of the near torment (i.e. the torment in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the supreme torment (in the Hereafter), in order that they may (repent and) return (i.e. accept Islam).

[Qur'an 32: 21]


​

However, if they die being ungrateful to Allah as disbelievers - they will face the severe punishment since this life is a mixture of both good and evil, whereas the hereafter is of either pure good reward or total punishment. We pray to Allah to make us of the successful and not of the losers.

Here's a good article aswell;

Happiness In Islam
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=35&sub_cat_id=869

Thanks brothers and sisters!

I know i havn't been able to address all the questions, but i think it's important you only debate once you're more knowledgable of Islam in depth.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

got it, I didn't want to get into the religion thing but for certain questions I had to cite islam as my reason for my beliefs and it continues from there. Thanks for the help, It seems that all he does is distort the verses to try and make a point, but I couldnt help myself when I saw that he rolled his eyes whenever he mentioned Allah, makes me angry but whatever, time to do research! :shade:

 

[جوري]

got it, I didn't want to get into the religion thing but for certain questions I had to cite islam as my reason for my beliefs and it continues from there. Thanks for the help, It seems that all he does is distort the verses to try and make a point, but I couldnt help myself when I saw that he rolled his eyes whenever he mentioned Allah, makes me angry but whatever, time to do research! :shade:

you know learning in a hostile environment is not conducive to learning, if you truly feel he is crossing the lines, you may file a grievance with the dean's office, it wouldn't be the first case of its kind.. it happens all the time. Professors are people to and subject to their own emotions, but their prejudices shouldn't preclude them from sticking to the schedule alloted for your class and not straying from it for personal reasons.

If he is inciting a provocation even in body language you should unquestionably bring it to the attention of his superiors and take it from there, if he intentionally distorts then you should correct him with proper knowledge, I am sure there is an MSA in your area? a Muslim student association? you can have meetings about this and hopefully can reach some resolution. He should leave his ignorance to jihad blog or the antimuslim blog but this has no room in academia!

 

[NoName55]

if you are inexperienced and do not have much knowledge, i would recommend not debating with him on the subject of religion. why not something like "i'm glad to hear that you are reading the qur'an. i pray that Allah will guide you."

exactly! thankyou

 

[BlackMamba]

A good site that refutes what kuffar say about the Quran is this http://answering-christianity.com/ac.htm
A also, y do atheists even come to this forum, wat is there to acomplish here. its a muslim forum. and it doesnt seem like there learning or even trying to learn anything anyway.

 

[Gator]

A good site that refutes what kuffar say about the Quran is this http://answering-christianity.com/ac.htm
A also, y do atheists even come to this forum, wat is there to acomplish here. its a muslim forum. and it doesnt seem like there learning or even trying to learn anything anyway.

Actually, speaking for myself, I've learned quite a lot about Islam and the many differnet ways its interpreted amongst its believers. I've also gotten a better insight into the people behind the faith and the varying lines of thought that lead people to what they believe.

I'm always interested in the specific ways how people can see the same thing and come up with utterly different conclusions.

Thanks.

 

[ranma1/2]

thanks for responding bro, you can see the trouble I feel in debating with him yet I don't know where to begin.... I feel a need to defend the truth

i think "speaking as an atheists"
that if you are going to claim it is the inerrant word you will have to back that up. He im sure might be reffering to the sun setting in water.

I think your best bet would be to show how you can decide between what is supposed to be story or allegory and what should be litteral. You should also back it up with evidence. the simple god says so wont fly with non muslims.

 

[Woodrow]

Posting links to anti Islamic sites is not acceptable. Personal arguments are not acceptable. This thread is no longer acceptable in this condition. Now let us get back to the topic.

 

[jouju]

bro/sis...personally i think u shudnt argue wen u don hav the ilm....y nt ask someone who's more knowledgable to do it coz u myt find urself in an unpleasant situation...he's definitely going to misqoute islamic verses to suit himself and his fantasies
jus giv him a translation of suratul ikhlaas n suratul alaq

 

[Whatsthepoint]

he's definitely going to misqoute islamic verses to suit himself and his fantasies

I don't think the professor has misquoted the Quran. The problem lies in his (mis)interpretation of the verses.

 

[Woodrow]

Everybody has a desire to refute lies, errors, misconceptions. The problem is too often people jump into a refutation unprepared and poorly qualified.

People have an inner feeling that if they can prove somebody, with opposing views, is wrong that makes their own view correct by default.


Picture this scenario Person A and person B both see a car. Person A says the car is blue Person B says the car is yellow. Person A "proves" the car is not Yellow. Does that make Person A correct? No, it only proves it is not yellow, the car might be Red or any other color.

In a refutation, it is useless to try to prove the other person is wrong. It is impossible to prove anything is wrong or non-existent. You need to prove you are correct, then leave it up to the person to either accept or reject what you say.


Somethings that are fast paths to loose a debate.

1. Getting angry

2. Getting side tracked into thinking you need to prove the other person is wrong. That is one of the oldest ploys experienced debaters use to make a novice look ridiculous.

3. Offering proof without indisputable verification.

4. Lack of knowledge about the other persons view. You need to be knowledgeable in the other persons beliefs and know in advance what that person will use as counter refutations also an understanding as to why they think you are wrong.




With that said, it is best to avoid refuting a statement, unless you are very knowledgeable in your own position and are aware of the probable reason your opponent will not believe you.

 

[Trumble]

lol don't take it too much to heart, you are describing every one of my professors from college. i think sometimes academic people can become too lost in their thoughts...

Not so much "lost in their thoughts" as confusion regarding their motives. Remember that for philosophy academics when talking to students it is the debate itself that is of principal importance, not the topic being discussed. They are not so much teaching you ideas as trying to teach you how to set about judging, arguing and formulating ideas of your own. And debate for them is fun... the fact your Prof chooses to debate with you may well be indicative he regards you as a particularly promising student, so be careful when talking abour 'disrespect'.

In other words he is most likely not testing your religion, he is testing you. Not your faith, but your academic competence in making an argument. I disagree with the

First i would report him to the administration,and i would take many students with you for support and backing. He can disagree all he wants but do it in a professional manner, not in an arrogant, ignorant and disrespectful manner.

... approach. In philosophy class the professor should have no 'respect' for positions that the student is incapable of supporting by argument, be they religious or not. There is no 'get out of jail free card' for religious faiths, nor should there be. He is teaching you how to argue not whether one religion is 'right' and another 'wrong' and more than one philosopher is 'right' and another 'wrong'.

As others have said, the best option is to learn more about your subject before you debate it. Don't expect it to be easy. Unless you have ambitions of getting a DPhil yourself one day your professor will usually make mincemeat of your opinion on whatever subject it may happen to be. I know, I've been there. Most claimed 'refutations', particularly those on religious rather than philosophical sites are weak or can be easily countered, so don't expect easy answers. But the point is you will be making some progress, and even if you still can't best the Prof in debate on any subject you'll be able to best your fellow students and most other people! Just don't make the other common mistake, confusing winning a philosophical debate with necessarily being 'right' or 'proving' anything...