Inquiry launched after Islamic group holds segregated lecture

[Pygoscelis]

If a group of muslim women walk into an auditorium and decide to all sit together, as their husbands all sit together in a separate group, are there really any secular people who are going to prevent them from doing so? A group of western women may decide to sit together for a girls night out too... this doesn't seem like much of a religious or cultural issue if that's all it is.

If, on the other hand, signs are posted and people are told where to sit, the men and women away from one another, that is a different story. I think at the core of it is the question of who is telling who where they must sit based on gender? If anybody is doing that, they are in the wrong here.

 

[Karl]

If a group of muslim women walk into an auditorium and decide to all sit together, as their husbands all sit together in a separate group, are there really any secular people who are going to prevent them from doing so? A group of western women may decide to sit together for a girls night out too... this doesn't seem like much of a religious or cultural issue if that's all it is.

If, on the other hand, signs are posted and people are told where to sit, the men and women away from one another, that is a different story. I think at the core of it is the question of who is telling who where they must sit based on gender? If anybody is doing that, they are in the wrong here.

Not when it comes to Muslims, gender segregation is normal. Non Muslim Westerners segregate people by how old they are not gender. Everything is restricted and regulated on how old you are. We have a photo ID with a date of birth on it. Race, sex, class does not matter just your age. We are defined and regulated by our age from cradle to grave. You are either too young or too old. So we have hypocracy from the non Muslims as usual.

 

[faithandpeace]

I generally feel that there is a lack of respect for privacy in Western culture. For instance, even if an Islam lecture at a secular university open to the public permitted people to sit wherever, Muslim men would tend to congregate in one area, and Muslim women in another area. However, if there are a few empty seats here and there you would probably have cases where non-Muslims take seats next to Muslims of the opposite sex when they could have just as easily sat next to Muslims of the same sex or sat in an area with more space as to give people of the opposite sex privacy. I see it even at my workplace. There will be tons of empty seats yet someone of the opposite sex has to sit at the chair directly next to me. The attack on separate seating is done for the same reason as the attack on hijab-wearing women--Western culture does not value women's privacy but just the opposite--women are to continually have their bodies, personalities, and lives forcibly made public against our will. It happens to me all the time at my job. People say I must be shy. I'm not shy at all! I just reserve the right to choose not to publicize details about myself to others when not relevant. Why are people especially men entitled to know anything about me or my life? Back to the topic of the university lecture, it isn't about equality or non-discrimination, it's about invading women's space.

 

[titus]

Non Muslim Westerners segregate people by how old they are not gender.

Really? I don't ever recall attending a lecture and being segregated by age. Or on a bus. Or in a theater. Or in church. I actually cannot think of a single example in my life of seating based on age.

 

[titus]

Back to the topic of the university lecture, it isn't about equality or non-discrimination, it's about invading women's space

If you feel they are invading your space you have the freedom to move to another chair or politely ask the gentleman to sit somewhere else.

You are proposing that society bend over to accommodate you and that should not be how it works, especially when there are ideas that are in conflict. What about the people wanting to attend the lecture with friends of the opposite sex? Why should they be forced to sit apart simply because you don't like it? What if the person giving the lecture is uncomfortable around Muslims, should he be allowed to ban Muslims from attending? It's a slippery slope.

Now if this was a private building I would have no problem with the owner setting his own rules. If they wanted to require segregated sitting and require everyone to wear a beanie and sing "I'm a little teapot" that would be fine with me. But in a publicly funded venue there are different expectations.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I see it even at my workplace. There will be tons of empty seats yet someone of the opposite sex has to sit at the chair directly next to me.

There are other people that would find it cold and distant (if not quite rude) to enter a room and sit far away from the other person who is already there, especially if they avoid eye contact. These people probably see you that way, and are trying to be friendly and bridge the gap.

It happens to me all the time at my job. People say I must be shy.

Yes, they may see you as shy, or cold and distant, or that you don't like them for some reason. And they may feel just as uncomfortable as you do if you give them what they perceive to be the cold shoulder and refuse to interact with them.

I'm not shy at all!

They won't see that. They will read you with the culture they grew up with. The same way you are reading them with the culture you grew up with (or adopted when you became Muslim). They are misjudging you and you are misjudging them.

I just reserve the right to choose not to publicize details about myself to others when not relevant.

You certainly have that right. They can ask you questions. You don't have to answer.

Back to the topic of the university lecture, it isn't about equality or non-discrimination, it's about invading women's space.

We'd need more facts to know for sure what was going on.

It looks like a culture clash to me, which is bound to invite a ton of misconceptions in both directions.

I've always thought it would be interesting to see a strict Muslim (one extreme) debate a nudist (another extreme). There would be so many misconceptions running in both directions. Both would be completely misunderstood and misjudged (muslim women are not oppressed, and nudist women are not hyper-sexualized). I have friends who are one and friends who are the other, but I've never seen them speak to one another.

 

[Berries'forest]

There are other people that would find it cold and distant (if not quite rude) to enter a room and sit far away from the other person who is already there, especially if they avoid eye contact. These people probably see you that way, and are trying to be friendly and bridge the gap.

That's just not very common. There are plenty of people who have social anxiety disorders and would probably fret over the slightest physical contact they come across even if it was accidental. It has nothing to do with being rude. It has everything to do with cherishing one's privacy. Some people are just not that touchy feely type so why is there concern being raised when it's a case of a muslim and not a non-muslim. And the eye contact thing is ultimately cultural there are many existing cultures today that discourage eye contact because it is considered rude and challenging especially if it's directed at elders. Don't you see how japanese people make the slightest eye contact possible (the one's who don't live in western counteries for the most part) that's because it's considered impolite and not acceptable behavior.

I've always thought it would be interesting to see a strict Muslim (one extreme) debate a nudist (another extreme). There would be so many misconceptions running in both directions. I have friends who are one and friends who are the other, but I've never seen them speak to one another.

I wouldn't be too thrilled about that if I were you. There are obvious no misconceptions just very differring positions of disclosing privacy. No wonder your friends don't speak to each other what would be there to speak of. Infact it's probably because your muslim friends don't want to torture their eyes everyday since a nudist doesn't have any problem giving it all out.

 

[Berries'forest]

The sister here who posted the line you are responding to in the quote above was not talking about Malcom X or bumper stickers.

I realize that and I am sorry if you did not understand the meaning of the comment. It was not to troll.

Thought I'd clear it up. The remark he made about the bumber sticker was to compare the muslims state to that of the times of segragation between whites and blacks in the US. He said it on purpose and obviously sarcasticly to subtly denote that we muslims are playing victim against non-muslims. I suppose it was a hint of a hidden audacious and unscurpulous expression, wasn't it titus?. Nice try better luck next time though.

 

[sister herb]

I wonder did they give same lecture to both males and females? If yes, then who cares if there were just one gender at the same time listening it?

^o)

 

[titus]

You pretty much got it right Berries, although I would dispute the unscrupulous part. Probably too subtle or esoteric for most here though.

 

[Berries'forest]

I wonder did they give same lecture to both males and females? If yes, then who cares if there were just one gender at the same time listening it?

^o)

It wouldn't have ended up like that had it not been because of the irrational fear they have of Islam. What possible harm could ever come out from people choosing to sit with people of their own gender?. Is it really about emancipating , liberating and breaking the "shackles" on women's hands and feet or are we getting at something else here as it's been hinted (out of all the other synanmous concepts surprisingly nudism is the one mentioned, and my oh I wonder why). If there should be any serious measures taken they should be made to ensure decreasing the amount of teen pregnancies transpiring out of unregulated public schools. Give up the facade it's already known that not even the most extreme off the wing lefty women are as 'liberalised' as they seem to be depicted though they only seem to be portaryed as body adverts for the most part. Liberalism= Nudity+invasion of privacy. It's pretty proportionate too since the more you show of your body the more respect and irresistable flowery platitudes a woman is showered by the community in which she resides. They're only enraged when she refuses to give them what they want. Unfortunate but true. I remember three years back reading a news report where a european female candidate running for office of MP had to expose all of her body parts in attempt to excite her supporters and gain more votes; and in public. Wow!. Yet she never made any remark about feeling enslaved or dehumanized despite the fact knowing that there would be no other way for her to gain popularity to win a political position besides appealing the sick tastes of the crowds by coming out completely bare. We've never witnessed a case where a man had to through these measures to gain votes , just a long speech with a dominating attitude what's really required. Yeah and they were saying?. There was also a study that was made by a radical feminist instituition I think either very early on this year or late 2012 that said the more sucess a woman acheives academically and professionally the less likable she becomes amongst both her male and female counterparts. While men on the other hand the more successfull they were the more they are adored and celebrated and this is all happening in yours truly liberal America where men and women like to deceive themselves into thinking that they are equal but ofcourse with varying positions. It would be easier if they just came out and said it instead of hiding behind faulty allegations. It seems women are more encouraged to work for VS rather than run for office or any other position of empowerment lest if she does otherwise she will be taunted by state funded newspapers and magazines hyping about her hairstyle or what she was wearing for the congress metting she had attended.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I could easily go off on some equally aggressive tirade against conservatism, full of misconceptions and references to radial organizations, but I'd know it for what it was. I consider myself lucky to be able to see both sides of these issues and not to be overly polarized. I am well to the left of centre (a far right atheist, or christian, would probably not be here talking to muslims), but I can see where the right comes from and they often make some good arguments that most on the left fail to understand. Jonathan Heidt's book "The Righteous Mind" is a very good look at this, if anybody is interested.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777

 

[sister herb]

I wonder if people who wanted to make inquiry just over reacted about the situation? Was that so important of they minds?

^o)

 

[Pygoscelis]

I agree. It really does look like over reaction.

 

[Berries'forest]

I could easily go off on some equally aggressive tirade against conservatism, full of misconceptions and references to radial organizations, but I'd know it for what it was. I consider myself lucky to be able to see both sides of these issues and not to be overly polarized. I am well to the left of centre (a far right muslim, or christian, would probably not be here talking to muslims), but I can see where the right comes from and they often make some good arguments that most on the left fail to understand. Jonathan Heidt's book "The Righteous Mind" is a very good look at this, if anybody is interested.

I wasn't aiming it directly at you. I was just exposing the real disillusionment of western countries being praised as saviors of women rights and liberties. Eventhough issues like these are gathered as collective they really aren't most are revolving around it's centre. The the perimeter surrounding it is very very broad. No harm done though, hopefully.

 

[titus]

It wouldn't have ended up like that had it not been because of the irrational fear they have of Islam. What possible harm could ever come out from people choosing to sit with their people of their own gender?

I don't think it was about not giving people the choice to sit with people of their own gender. It was the fear they were telling people that they had to.

 

[Karl]

Really? I don't ever recall attending a lecture and being segregated by age. Or on a bus. Or in a theater. Or in church. I actually cannot think of a single example in my life of seating based on age.

Some of the airlines segregate by age and gender. Men can not sit next to a child unless he is a relative or minder.
This was a cause of complaint in the news.

 

[titus]

Yes, I remember reading about that a while ago that for unattended minors they prefer that women sit next to the children. That is much different than segregation of the population based on age or gender.

 

[Karl]

Yes, I remember reading about that a while ago that for unattended minors they prefer that women sit next to the children. That is much different than segregation of the population based on age or gender.

Things have to start somewhere, this is just the beginning. I would not be suprised going by current trends in the West that majors and minors will be segregated. As the feminist mindset is that all majors (especially men) are "sexual predators" and all minors are all butter wouldn't melt in their mouth innocents.
It is very similer to the "white people are pure and good and the black people are dirty and evil" mindset that proliferated in the past. But the bigotry has shifted to age and gender instead.

 

[faithandpeace]

The fact is that I have a right to privacy and freedom of association. I do not have to socialize with certain people on my lunch break or here on this forum. I reserve the right to my own personal space, time, and privacy and to only associate with those whom I choose to such as people with similar values and interests. Western liberalism aims to destroy this by creating a culture with absolutely no standards thereby expecting all people to associate with everyone at the lowest common denominator and making everything public. Schools and workplaces constantly pry into people's private lives and force social interactions that aren't even relevant to the educational experience or work environmemt. I'm sick of being asked to publically declare to my team at work what my music, movie, and book choices are along with answering questions about my family and personal philosophy. Why? I don't owe anyone my personal and private life and don't have to socialize with those whom I choose not to! That is my right as a female, as a Muslimah, and as a human being!