Inquiry launched after Islamic group holds segregated lecture

I'm pretty sure that the United States has learned quite well from its history that "separate but equal" does not work, and I don't see any kind of trend starting to reverse that, whether it be in regards to color, gender or age.

not have to socialize with certain people on my lunch break or here on this forum.

And society give you that right. I am not aware of any laws in my country forcing anyone to socialize with anyone they don't want to. Where do you live and are there laws that force you to socialize with people on your lunch break?
 
No need to put here again accusations against the western world and against feminism (or hate against females) but in general females are caring for children - also for those whose are not theirs, not their race or culture.

:D

Little kids are just so cute to us... I mean to sisters.
 
I'm sick of being asked to publically declare to my team at work what my music, movie, and book choices are along with answering questions about my family and personal philosophy.

Where do you work that you are being forced to answer these questions? Or are you merely being asked them? People have a right to ask. You don't have to answer. If they are forcing you to answer such questions then they are doing you wrong and invading your privacy.
 
It was a religious gathering. Every religion has its customs and norms. If someone wants to attend an Islamic lecture they should respect the way it is organised. Would you approve of a guest who wants to follow his own rules inside your home?. It was exclusively designed for people who tolerate Islamic teachings and are willing to actually immerse themselves into Islamic arrangement. Why make such a magnify something so trivial. Reply to titus since I can't qoute at the moment.
 
It was a religious gathering. Every religion has its customs and norms. If someone wants to attend an Islamic lecture they should respect the way it is organised.

From what I gather it was a lecture geared towards non-Muslims since it took place during "Islamic Awareness Week". My assumption from the title is that part of the purpose is to help educate non-Muslims about Islam.

This was also a lecture, not a sermon.

And it was at a University, not at a Masjid.

University policy is that people are not segregated according to race, religion or sex. If that is a problem with any organization that wants to have a meeting that is open to the public then I believe that organization should hold the meeting at a place more hospitable to them.
 
Would you approve of a guest who wants to follow his own rules inside your home?

No, and this Islamic group went into a University expecting just that.
 
Thought I'd clear it up. The remark he made about the bumber sticker was to compare the muslims state to that of the times of segragation between whites and blacks in the US. He said it on purpose and obviously sarcasticly to subtly denote that we muslims are playing victim against non-muslims. I suppose it was a hint of a hidden audacious and unscurpulous expression, wasn't it titus?. Nice try better luck next time though.
You don't need a week to see through this charade =)

:welcome: aboard and don't let it deter you..

:w:
 
the irony is that most attendees would sit in a non segregated lecture hall five days a week.

within there own circles,

and it does not normally lead to any intolerance.



the rules are only as good as the people and nobodies perfect.
 
I don't want to take this thread off topic so I will not be responding to questions regarding my workplace, etc. even though I did bring up the subject in relation to this topic. What I see as part of the problem with Western liberalism such as in the university setting is that while it promotes non-discrimination on an institutional level (i.e. students must be treated equally regardless of race, religion, sex, etc.) which in my opinion is good, it also pushes non-discrimination on an individual level (dictating how individuals may choose to associate with other individuals) which in my opinion is bad.

The university for instance on an institutional level should permit both men and women to enroll in school and take whatever classes they need. Same with Muslim students and non-Muslim students. That is institutional non-discrimination. Western liberalism takes it further attempting to govern how every human should interact with every other human. For instance, in a lunch room or social hall let's say only men want to sit together at a table and ask women to sit elsewhere at their own table or Muslim women want to sit together and not have non-Muslims (male or female) at their table. This is the choice of individuals choosing who they want to socialize/associate with. Western liberalism tries to violate this right as well. So back at the lecture hall, Muslim men and women may try to segregate themselves yet when non-Muslims or misguided Muslims sit next to the opposite gender then those already seated have to ask them to sit elsewhere and if they refuse then they have to re-seat themselves because the other people would not be considerate of spacing.

What ends up happening is what I like to call forced interactions or forced association. People have the right to associate or not associate with those they choose. In my own experience and observation, people who attempt to live by a stricter set of standards and values in their own lives take their association with others more seriously because their time, space, and consciousness is being taken increasingly more seriously by them and therefore they will become more selective in who they associate with and who they don't. It would be reasonable for instance to expect that observant Muslims who abstain from eating pork and drinking alcohol and take their relationship with Allah (swt) seriously would not want to hang out with friends who drink and drug regularly to the level of intoxication, and who live a lifestyle and hold beliefs that have viritually nothing in common with them.

Western liberalism in my opinion such as this university incident uses the concept of "equality" to actually create "sameness" which is done by reducing people to the lowest common denominator so that all people are essentially the same. That lowest common denominator is basically to lack any kind of self-chosen values and standards. If a person has no values or standards, they can be easily molded or controlled by the university's or company's standards and values as they are essentially an empty vessel waiting to be filled by the institution's cup of values and standards. Anytime someone makes a decision about their lives that is based on a conscious choice of personal values and standards such as not drinking, not eating certain foods, not sitting with and socializing with the opposite sex, etc. then they are seen as setting themselves apart (i.e. discriminating against) from others who do not hold or act on those values.

And that is what this university situation is all about. Nobody is allowed to act upon any personal values or standards they hold even amongst themselves if they go against the "university values." The same goes for workplaces. The same corporations that love to throw around how "multi-cultural" they are in reality are opposed to any cultures that don't neatly fit into the "company culture." So at the end of the day, universities and workplaces love to have on their books that they have students/workers who are Muslim, Jewish, or Sikh as long as they are "token" Muslims, Jews, or Sikhs who practice a watered-down version of their religion enough so that they "fit into" the university/company "culture." When someone is an observant Muslim, Orthodox Jew, or serious Sikh who just wants to get an education/get a paycheck without giving up his or her identity and culture or being molded/assimilated into the Western liberal system, they are now considered to be a problem by the powers of that institution.

Proof of my points can be seen in the any number of cases of discrimination against Muslims by universities and workplaces often having to do with personal decisions those Muslims make such as wearing hijab or not shaking hands with the opposite sex yet those personal decisions never had any affect on their ability to do their job or study in the first place! I can sum it all up by saying that these schools and workplaces that do this do not want truly independent students or workers who are self-driven and self-governing, they want robots who can be easily manipulated and controlled for the purpose of making a profit.

Astaghfirullah for making such a long post but insha'Allah my point comes across clearly.
 
The university you went to must have been very different than the one I went to. During lunch at my university there were many self-segregated tables, and my university had no rules saying that people had to mix even if they didn't want to. In fact such a rule would have been seen as inhibiting freedom of choice and extremely unpopular.
 
I don't want to take this thread off topic so I will not be responding to questions regarding my workplace, etc. even though I did bring up the subject in relation to this topic. What I see as part of the problem with Western liberalism such as in the university setting is that while it promotes non-discrimination on an institutional level (i.e. students must be treated equally regardless of race, religion, sex, etc.) which in my opinion is good, it also pushes non-discrimination on an individual level (dictating how individuals may choose to associate with other individuals) which in my opinion is bad.

The university for instance on an institutional level should permit both men and women to enroll in school and take whatever classes they need. Same with Muslim students and non-Muslim students. That is institutional non-discrimination. Western liberalism takes it further attempting to govern how every human should interact with every other human. For instance, in a lunch room or social hall let's say only men want to sit together at a table and ask women to sit elsewhere at their own table or Muslim women want to sit together and not have non-Muslims (male or female) at their table. This is the choice of individuals choosing who they want to socialize/associate with. Western liberalism tries to violate this right as well. So back at the lecture hall, Muslim men and women may try to segregate themselves yet when non-Muslims or misguided Muslims sit next to the opposite gender then those already seated have to ask them to sit elsewhere and if they refuse then they have to re-seat themselves because the other people would not be considerate of spacing.

What ends up happening is what I like to call forced interactions or forced association. People have the right to associate or not associate with those they choose. In my own experience and observation, people who attempt to live by a stricter set of standards and values in their own lives take their association with others more seriously because their time, space, and consciousness is being taken increasingly more seriously by them and therefore they will become more selective in who they associate with and who they don't. It would be reasonable for instance to expect that observant Muslims who abstain from eating pork and drinking alcohol and take their relationship with Allah (swt) seriously would not want to hang out with friends who drink and drug regularly to the level of intoxication, and who live a lifestyle and hold beliefs that have viritually nothing in common with them.

Western liberalism in my opinion such as this university incident uses the concept of "equality" to actually create "sameness" which is done by reducing people to the lowest common denominator so that all people are essentially the same. That lowest common denominator is basically to lack any kind of self-chosen values and standards. If a person has no values or standards, they can be easily molded or controlled by the university's or company's standards and values as they are essentially an empty vessel waiting to be filled by the institution's cup of values and standards. Anytime someone makes a decision about their lives that is based on a conscious choice of personal values and standards such as not drinking, not eating certain foods, not sitting with and socializing with the opposite sex, etc. then they are seen as setting themselves apart (i.e. discriminating against) from others who do not hold or act on those values.

And that is what this university situation is all about. Nobody is allowed to act upon any personal values or standards they hold even amongst themselves if they go against the "university values." The same goes for workplaces. The same corporations that love to throw around how "multi-cultural" they are in reality are opposed to any cultures that don't neatly fit into the "company culture." So at the end of the day, universities and workplaces love to have on their books that they have students/workers who are Muslim, Jewish, or Sikh as long as they are "token" Muslims, Jews, or Sikhs who practice a watered-down version of their religion enough so that they "fit into" the university/company "culture." When someone is an observant Muslim, Orthodox Jew, or serious Sikh who just wants to get an education/get a paycheck without giving up his or her identity and culture or being molded/assimilated into the Western liberal system, they are now considered to be a problem by the powers of that institution.

Proof of my points can be seen in the any number of cases of discrimination against Muslims by universities and workplaces often having to do with personal decisions those Muslims make such as wearing hijab or not shaking hands with the opposite sex yet those personal decisions never had any affect on their ability to do their job or study in the first place! I can sum it all up by saying that these schools and workplaces that do this do not want truly independent students or workers who are self-driven and self-governing, they want robots who can be easily manipulated and controlled for the purpose of making a profit.

Astaghfirullah for making such a long post but insha'Allah my point comes across clearly.


?

and who is it that controls the robots?


if you look at the quran, there is something along the lines of..

they will ask you about alcohol and gambling.

the rest of that verse shows the answer and the approach to the answer.


history changes gradually and so do the laws.


im sorry if you think its not relevant to the thread.


as for discrimination, as long as they dont change your heart.. so that it feels like your asked the same questions each day.

that is the trick of the shaytaan.


people are still people.
 
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For instance, in a lunch room or social hall let's say only men want to sit together at a table and ask women to sit elsewhere at their own table or Muslim women want to sit together and not have non-Muslims (male or female) at their table. This is the choice of individuals choosing who they want to socialize/associate with. Western liberalism tries to violate this right as well. So back at the lecture hall, Muslim men and women may try to segregate themselves yet when non-Muslims or misguided Muslims sit next to the opposite gender then those already seated have to ask them to sit elsewhere and if they refuse then they have to re-seat themselves because the other people would not be considerate of spacing.

This reminds me of white people asking black people to sit at the back of the bus.

You should have your rights to privacy and to your cultural practices, but only so long as they do not interfere with the rights of others. You cross the line if you demand special treatment or if you ask to do things others would not be allowed to do for good reason. Refusing to shake hands or wearing a head covering should be fine, for muslims, for germaphobes, for anybody. Wearing a mask may not be ok, if there are valid security concerns, and no exception should be made just because somebody says it is part of their religion.
 
No, and this Islamic group went into a University expecting just that.

As for your first post sure I guess. Do you slways do that?. You know taking texts and teisting them into your side of the arguement?. I see your point but still they should be allowed to demonstrate their religion without having to forsake some of it's corner stone tenets. What's the point of goinv to an Islamic lecture that is seized and regulated by non islamic system. You only get half of what you want to know and never get to experience it in an empirical way.
 
If there are plenty of empty seats then it is rude to take the seat directly next to someone without asking if it is ok to sit there. Your point about wearing masks seems to be a reference to niqab. Our clothing choices are not "masks" or "costumes." Sisters have a right to wear niqab if they choose to and can remove it temporarily in front of a female security guard if they need to be identified. I will defend sisters' rights to personal privacy and to personal space in a university setting.
 
you're speaking to someone who makes sodomy akin to religion, and dignity akin to indignation.
Some things are neither worth explaining nor indulging!

:w:
 
It is not as if the organization running the event was forcing other events to follow their beliefs and customs. It is like allowing Chinese folk to have a banquet in your buidling and then being outraged for them serving Chinese food instead of all-American food. If the Universey truly stood for protecting people's rights and freedoms and diversity, then they should expect and respect that some events may be run differently according to the differences of those that organize and run them as well as many attending them. To force every event to conform to the same customs is not respecting the diversty of customs and diversty of people sharing them and letting others experience them. It is not opening the door to more tolerance and diversity but closing the door on them.
 
The problem is that it is diversity in name only. It goes only as far as labels go. A person can "identify" as whatever minority group and they are less likely to run into issues. It is when their customs based on that identity fail to assimilate that the trouble starts. They say it is diversity yet everyone is essentially supposed to think and act the same. It wouldn't surprise me if universities start using homosexuality to discriminate against Muslims by saying that Islam is "intolerant" and that Muslim Student Associations are promoting "bigotry" and therefore are not in line with "university values." The real goal of course is to ban Islam or any other spirituality/religion/tradition/path outside of a watered down secularized assimilated version of it. Secularism and consumerism have become the new religion.
 
Couldn't they just work something out like the Males of one side and the females on the other? Or females behind and males it the front? I think not so long ago a lecture took place at UCL and the same problem happened, now that specific group is other religious groups are banned from hosting anymore events there.

We really need to work around these things.
 
If there are plenty of empty seats then it is rude to take the seat directly next to someone without asking if it is ok to sit there.

I agree... to a point. It depends on the situation. If you walk into an auditorium and there is a group of strangers sitting there and there is a ton of other seats, I would agree it is rude to go sit directly next to them. On the other hand should a man and his wife (or a brother and sister, or opposite gender friends) have to split up and sit apart from each other just because you don't want to sit next to men and your muslim brothers don't want to sit next to women? That would be both rude and unfair. Perhaps a better solution would be a muslim section (within which the men and women can voluntarily split) and a non-muslim section (where couples can sit together).

Your point about wearing masks seems to be a reference to niqab. Our clothing choices are not "masks" or "costumes."

A face covering is a mask, no matter how you want to label it or what motivation you have for wearing it. Surgical masks, ski masks, entertainment masks, are all masks.

Sisters have a right to wear niqab if they choose to and can remove it temporarily in front of a female security guard if they need to be identified.

They should have no more right than anybody else to cover their face. I agree that people should be allowed to wear masks where they want to, so long as they are not in security sensitive places. That applies to all. There should not be special rules for religious people.

And if we are to pay security guards (and engage in some discrimination rules requiring female ones to be available at all times despite how many female applicants are available for the jobs in proportion to male ones) to look under the masks that is a decision to be made by business owners or whoever is running the venue. It may make good business sense, but it should never be required of them, and they certainly shouldn't be required to pay any added costs for doing it.

I will defend sisters' rights to personal privacy and to personal space in a university setting.

I will defend everyone's rights. You have a right to privacy, but it needs to be weighed against the rights of others, be those rights regarding security, freedom of movement, freedom of expression, etc. I will be your ally in terms of fighting islamophobia, but I will stand against you should you seek to curtail the rights of others solely for your own religious reasons.
 
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It wouldn't surprise me if universities start using homosexuality to discriminate against Muslims by saying that Islam is "intolerant" and that Muslim Student Associations are promoting "bigotry" and therefore are not in line with "university values."

I haven't heard of any Muslim Student Associations promoting bigotry or attacking homosexuals. Does this happen? I have heard of some Christian groups doing this. The muslim groups over here seem much better behaved. Perhaps it is because they lack the power the Christian groups have. Or perhaps it is because they can relate to the homosexual groups in terms of having hate directed at them. Muslims and homosexuals in America strangely sometimes wind up as reluctant allies, as radical Christian groups take aim at both of them.
 

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