Intercession

[POBook]

Salam Abu Zakariya,

No, I am not saying that justice is to punish someone who is innocent. Justice is administering what must be administered. If you steal something and you are caught, you will have justice administered to you. This justice may be a fine or it may be imprisonment. Grace is the acceptance of punishment by someone who is innocent. If you saw the person steal something, and you saw that person arrested, and you were there when the judge administered the justice of two years in prison for stealing, and then YOU stepped up to the judge and told him you, as an innocent person, would serve the time of justice for the thief, you would then be showing GRACE toward the thief. The judge would then have to decide whether to be MERCIFUL to the thief or not. To be merciful toward the thief, the judge would allow you to pay the price of imprisonment on behalf of the thief.

The guilty person was not punished. He received MERCY. The innocent person was punished. JUSTICE was fulfilled. The innocent person's willingness to stand in the thief's place was GRACE.

Thank you again for your feedback. I hope this make's it more clear.

 

[POBook]

Salam Alaikum,

I hope you are doing better. I realize that I may be repeating myself on some issues, particularly John 14:6. So one more time on this verse of Scripture. What if the prophets disagree in their teachings? Who is right? Who then is the truth? To you what did Jesus mean when He said, "I am the Truth; I am the Life"?

"As I mentioned earlier every action is judged on intention."
What happens if someone tries very hard not to steal but he ends up stealing. If he is caught, is the judge going to say, "Look, I know you tried very hard not steal but did anyway. But because you tried, you are free to go." I know this example sounds crazy. But most people do not want to do what's wrong in GOD's eyes, but because of the sinful nature, we do wrong. So, is GOD going to say, "Look, I know you tried hard not to sin, but you did anyway. But because you tried, you are free to go"?

The parable you shared about the 2 men giving charity is very similar to a parable Jesus told about rich Pharisees giving lots of money to make a name for themselves and a poor woman giving all she had with pure motives and intentions. Jesus she she gave much more than they did. These parables, I think, do not address the issues of justice and mercy as much as they address the issue of pure intentions of the heart.

"All that being said if it was a crime I did against myself then yes God would forgive me."

What would happen if it was a crime you committed against God?

"Best to my understanding you believe God is here to serve you."
GOD did more than simply serve me. GOD gave His life for me...for me to have Life...life to the full here on this earth and life for eternity when my body dies. Because I belong to GOD, He is not here to serve me. I have given my life to Him to serve Him. But, as a born-again believer, I am more than simply a servant of GOD. I am a child of GOD. He loved me enough to adopt me into His family. There is no gap between GOD and myself. Out of love for me, He holds me in His arms like a father holds and loves his own child. Does this mean I can treat GOD like children often treat their parents? NO! I want to honor God with every area of my life--with words, with thoughts, with motives, and with actions. But when I fail, GOD is not going to disown me. I am His child. He might need to discipline me...to teach me...but through His love for me, He will keep me.

I know we have different beliefs, so thank you for your willingness to dialogue in a respectful way. I hope I do the same.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

POBook

You are setting limits to God.
If there is a sin where a person goes against the commands of God, it is up to Him wether He wants to punish that person or not.

I do not see the justice in punishing someone that doesn't deserve punishment.
You are basically saying that

1. God punished someone innocent (i.e. His son and also Himself, since both are one and the same)
2. God punished himself and died on the cross for the sins of the world (which is, mind you, a pagan concept. there was actually a god called Mithras that was born on the 25th of December, called the son of God, that reportedly died for the sins of the world. other deities that did the same were called "the lamb(s) of God")

If you ask me, this goes against reason.
It is not befitting for God to kill himself. It is not befitting for Him to die.

It is shocking to me that you keep talking about justice and then say that this, i.e. punishing someone innocent instead of the guilty one, is justice.
Killing someone innocent isn't justice.

So here we have to concepts.

The Christian: God can't just let the sinners slide. He has to punish their evil. But, in His grace, he punishes Himself instead and kills His son/Himself.

The Islamic: When a sinner repents, He is forgiven by the grace of God. No innocent person has to be killed for this to be possible.

 

[POBook]

Salam Abu Zakariya

Thank you for your response.

If there is a sin where a person goes against the commands of God, it is up to Him wether He wants to punish that person or not.

I agree with you. GOD is totally Sovereign. But will GOD punish one person and not another for the same sin they may have committed with the same motives? Surely GOD is consistent by nature.

I do not see the justice in punishing someone that doesn't deserve punishment.

Once again, you are right in this. But, do you have the right to punish yourself, as much as you don't deserve punishment, for the wrong someone else may have committed against you? Us people sinned against GOD. Instead of punishing us for our sin, He took our punishment on Himself. He thus earned the right to forgive the people who sinned against Him. GOD is merciful. He is also just. To combine mercy and justice, GOD Himself paid the price for our sin. We can simply accept this or reject it.
You are basically saying that

It is not befitting for God to kill himself. It is not befitting for Him to die.

Once again, you are very right. It is not befitting for God to do this. However, He loves us sooo much, Abu Zakariya, that He was willing to leave His high place of Honor and come to this earth in the form of a humble servant and be willing to go through the pain, suffering, and shame that us people had earned through our sin. This was the greatest act of mercy and justice ever expressed by anyone. It was the greatest act of love. Would you be willing to die for your worst enemy?

Killing someone innocent isn't justice.

I agree with you. Killing and innocent person is not justice. Once again, however, if you personally are willing to pay the price for the wrong someone did to you, you have the right to do this.

The Christian: God can't just let the sinners slide. He has to punish their evil. But, in His grace, he punishes Himself instead and kills His son/Himself.

The Islamic: When a sinner repents, He is forgiven by the grace of God. No innocent person has to be killed for this to be possible.

We have to decide: Is GOD merciful:? ? Is GOD just:? ? Is He both:? ? If He is only merciful, then it is OK to sin and do things wrong. He is merciful so we will not be punished. If He is only just, then all of us will be punished because all of us have sinned against GOD, intentionally or unintentionally. If He is both merciful and just, how do we put these two characteristics together. For me, GOD fulfilled mercy and justice by coming to this earth and out of love for me, paid the price of death for my sin.

Thank you again for your dialogue. My desire is to respect you and your faith. I also want to share my faith in a respectful manner.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

POBook

Thank you for the replies.
I admit, I didn't fully understand this concept before, but you explained it patiently and in a nice manner.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

For instance:

Once again, you are very right. It is not befitting for God to do this. However, He loves us sooo much, Abu Zakariya, that He was willing to leave His high place of Honor and come to this earth in the form of a humble servant and be willing to go through the pain, suffering, and shame that us people had earned through our sin. This was the greatest act of mercy and justice ever expressed by anyone. It was the greatest act of love. Would you be willing to die for your worst enemy?

Reading this makes me scared, almost.
I feel undeserving of being Gods slave, even. For Him to even create us, guide us, give us an opportunity to even pray to Him and follow His blessed path is such a mercy, that I can't even begin to describe.
For me to hear someone saying that God became a man, that He ate food, went to the bathroom, died, etc. is shocking. I don't mean to offend you, I swear to God I don't, but this is how I feel upon hearing these sort of things.

And they say: "The Most Beneficent (God) has begotten a son!
Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.
Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, that they ascribe a son to the Most Beneficent.
But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent that He should beget a son.
There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent as a slave.
Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting.
And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection (without any helper, or protector or defender).
Verily, those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, the Most Beneficent will bestow love for them (in the hearts of the believers).
So We have made this (the Qur'ân) easy in your own tongue, only that you may give glad tidings to the pious and righteous persons, and warn with it the most quarrelsome people.

The above verse tells you how I feel upon hearing this.

I agree with you. Killing and innocent person is not justice. Once again, however, if you personally are willing to pay the price for the wrong someone did to you, you have the right to do this.

Don't I have the right to forgive?

Again, I fail to see the justice in punishing someone innocent.

Either you punish the one guilty of the crime, or you forgive him. You don't punish an innocent person.

No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden.

and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted

There's probably a difference when it comes to God rewarding an act within Islam and Christianty.
In islam, God will reward the one that intends to do good as if he performed the act itself. This isn't justice per se, is it? He didn't perform the good deed.
As for someone that actually does a good deed, he will be rewarded tenfold. This isn't justice either, really? It would be 100% just to reward the person in accordance with the deed, not 10 times as much.

This is because of God's mercy. His mercy pervails over His anger. If someone performs an evil deed, He is angry. However, his infinite mercy makes Him forgive the sinner that repents to God.

Again, I think we have to agree to disagree.

 

[POBook]

Dear Abu Zakariya,

I say “Dear” because I want you to know that I love you. Please don’t get me wrong—I am married to a truly wonderful woman and I have two lovely daughters. You are dear to me because you are a Muslim and I can tell that you expressed yourself honestly and openly. I respect this very much.

“Again, I fail to see the justice in punishing someone innocent. Either you punish the one guilty of the crime, or you forgive him. You don't punish an innocent person.”

May I try to explain this again. I agree with you. There is no justice in punishing an innocent person for a guilty person’s crimes. We have no right to punish an innocent person for a guilty person’s crimes. But if YOU establish a law that has certain consequences in the failure of keeping that law, and somebody else breaks the law YOU established, do YOU not have the right and choice to fulfill the consequences of YOUR law that somebody else broke? Do YOU not have the right to pay the price for what someone did to YOU. You cannot get someone else to pay the price for a law you made that another person broke. But YOU have the right and the choice to pay the price on behalf of the guilty person who broke YOUR law. Please keep this in mind for now.

I understand that Islam has a major problem when it comes to referring to Jesus as the “Son of God”. I really want to respect your concern over this. Please allow me, however, to explain the meaning of this. GOD did not have a son in the sense that women and men produce a children. GOD is Spirit. As GOD looked down on the human race, He saw a part of His creation filled with evil and sin. As the Righteous and Holy GOD, He could have punished us immediately for our sin. However, how could He punish a people He loved? As I look at the picture you have of that wonderful little boy, I assume is your son, I wonder to myself how we can punish children like this if they do wrong? Yet we punish and discipline those we truly love—for what is right and what is to their own benefit in the long run. You see, Abu Zakariya, GOD truly loves us…more than anyone can imagine or understand. While He loves us, He is also Righteous, Pure, and Holy. As He looked down on these people who had sinned against Him, He understood His own Sovereignty and Righteousness. These people needed to be punished for their sin. At the same time, how was he going to give punishment to these people He truly loved? There was only one way to fulfill His justice and His mercy. It is like He said, “I will go down there and pay the price for their sin”. God had no right to punish anyone else for sins we had committed against Him. But he did have the right and the choice to take our punishment on Himself so that we did not have to face the punishment. This was a mighty act of love for us; A mighty act of grace on His part. That’s what so many people cannot fathom—How and why would the Mighty, Holy, and Righteous Creator of this Universe come to this earth, dwell among us and go through the pain and suffering of crucifixion. How did He do it? He did it by coming to this world in the form of a perfect human being—Jesus Christ. Why did He do it? He did it because He loves us…He truly loves us.

It’s like a judge, Abu Zakariya, who hands out a sentence to a criminal. Once the sentence is handed out, the judge, no one else, steps down from his bench and comes to the criminal and takes the sentence away, telling the criminal he will serve this sentence. Is this not justice and mercy; love and grace? What would you think if a judge handed you a prison sentence and the judge then came to you and told you that because he loves you, he will serve the sentence on your behalf? Either you could simply humble yourself and accept his offer, or in pride you could reject his offer.

I hope this helps you understand better what we believe as Christians. GOD is GOD and He is a GOD of love who found a way to express His love toward His people who had sinned against Him. Yes, GOD is also Mercy. But He is also Justice. To ignore justice, is to say that it is OK to sin and that GOD does not mind sin. The opposite of mercy is justice. If God is Merciful, which He is, then he must be Just, which He is. Either He is both or He is none. He cannot be one without the other.

Again, I desire to respect you. So I hope I share with you my faith and belief in a respectful way.

Peace to you

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Part of this definition contains the principle of "pity".

That is related to God's rahmat to disbelievers. But for believers it includes the other things mentioned.

Regards

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Dear POBook

I appreciate your posts. I really do. You are respectful and patient and I thank you for that. You have also opened my eyes and explained this issue to me so I can understand it simply.
The problem is that I can't agree.
I think I have explained my position on this. I don't even dare to think of God, the Perfect, in a situation like that; suffering, eating food, dying etc.
It goes against my nature, it's as simple as that.
Again, this is what I feel upon hearing those things:

Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.
Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, that they ascribe a son to the Most Beneficent.

It goes against my nature to believe that God had begotten a son (because that is something that we humans do, God is above these things), not to mention things like eating, visiting the bathroom and dying.
From what I understand also, Jesus wasn't created according to Christiand belief, he was begotten.

But if YOU establish a law that has certain consequences in the failure of keeping that law, and somebody else breaks the law YOU established, do YOU not have the right and choice to fulfill the consequences of YOUR law that somebody else broke?

Well, according to islam, there are consequences, but not the same as in the Christian belief. The consequences are as follows: someone that sins is punished, unless he/she repents.

Again, this along with the islamic belief that God is generous when it comes to rewarding His servants (so if someone performs one good deed, he isn't rewarded in accordance with the deed, he is rewarded even more) isn't necesseraly just, is it? But this is God's mercy.

I don't see why the consequence of sin has to be punishment, period. I find it more in accordance with my nature that God forgives instead of punishing Himself in someones place.

Again, I think we have to agree to disagree. We both understand each other (I think), but we can't seem to settle on this issue.
But here comes the great thing with living in a free society. We may keep our beliefs and respect each other despite our differences.

By the way, the little kid on the pic isn't my child, hehe. I'm pretty much a kid myself (I'm 16). It was just a cute picture I found and had to share with others. It was to cute not too. =)

 

[POBook]

I thank you all for your feedback and your perspectives on this issue of intercession. I hope we can coninue discussing other issues, despite our differences.

 

[akulion]

oh i just wanted to give this verse which I had mentioned earlier

I found it today and remembered this thread so I thought I would include it

19: 87
None shall have the power of intercession but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Gracious.