Interesting find - Christians please comment

[aadil77]

 

[aadil77]

bump.............

 

[Salahudeen]

jazakallah khair very interesting. Christianity is based upon the interpretation of Paul and his interpretation is based upon visions?

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Aslaamu`Alaaykum bro

Well as far as im aware most christians usually dont rely on the Gospel of Barnabas(the book i believe theyre talking about in the vid) even though its the earliest text,and since it confirms Jesus pbuh isnt God.
I also read that Barnabas was a deciple that lived,walked, ate etc(i dont have refs, i recall reading it from the bible christians read today) with Jesus (pbuh), whereas the other authors Mark,Matthew,Luke and John were not, they didnt live/walk,etc with him.

However, if you listen carefully the guy(narrator) does mention that the virgin birth isnt mentioned in the book, So in conclusion christians follow only a "few" of Jesus Pbuh "real" teachings.

sorry i just had to comment

And Allaah knows best!

Wa`Alaaykum Salaam

Edit: I guess i did mention "I believe" its the Gospel of Barnabas because it sounded similar and ive never heard of the Didache or i didnt listen properly but because it confirms Jesus isnt God i thought it spoke of Gospel of Barnabas. However, it also confirms that Jesus isnt God, and that its one of the early sources. but i may be wrong, feel free to disagree!

 

[PouringRain]

Aadil, you asked for Christians to comment..... I'll bite. I must confess, I am quite ill tonight and have been for two nights now, and I feel especially guilty for not having responded yet to Hiroshi in another thread, when I have already had my response to him since Friday morning, just awaiting my time to sit and write it out.

Aslaamu`Alaaykum bro

Well as far as im aware most christians usually dont rely on the Gospel of Barnabas(the book i believe theyre talking about in the vid)

The book mentioned in the video is actually the Didache. But don't feel too bad for having missed that in the video. I have difficulty maintaining attention to auditory input from videos as well, and most gets tuned out, which is why I normally do not watch any videos at all.

However, if you listen carefully the guy(narrator) does mention that the virgin birth isnt mentioned in the book, So in conclusion christians follow only a "few" of Jesus Pbuh "real" teachings.

sorry i just had to comment

And Allaah knows best!

Wa`Alaaykum Salaam

The virgin birth is one thing that is not completely agreed upon by Christians in the first place. If one examines the original in Isaish, the Hebrew word does not have to mean a virgin (one who has never had sexual intercourse), but could also have other meanings such as a young girl, or even one who conceives at first intercourse. So, the virgin birth is not something that is bedrock of the Christian faith in the first place. (There are many Christians who would strongly disagree with me though. )


Back to the video.... I have not read the Didache, so I can not comment on what it may or may not contain. The video suggests that in the early church there was not a single consensus on many beliefs-- and that is as true then as it is today. I would agree with the video that "the church" suppressed anything that deviated from a set of beliefs that they wanted to promote. And my final comment on the deity of Jesus... I disagree with the editorialized comment by the narrator that without the belief in the deity of Jesus then there would be no Christianity. There are and always have been Christians who do not believe in the deity of Jesus. (Just as there are and always have been non-trinitarian Christians as well.) I would say that the vast majority of Christians subscribe to the belief in the deity of Jesus, and those would say that without it there is no Christianity. But this is not true for ALL Christians. There are those who do not subscribe to that belief, and who have not ceased to be a Christian because of their belief. The basic definition of a Christian is a follower of Christ (and his teachings).

But... things such as the virginity of Mary or the deity of Christ, etc. leads to a larger problem that I won't go into here as it is a bit off-topic. It is a problem that can affect individuals of all religions.

Anyhow, those are my comments on the video.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

The virgin birth is one thing that is not completely agreed upon by Christians in the first place. If one examines the original in Isaish, the Hebrew word does not have to mean a virgin (one who has never had sexual intercourse), but could also have other meanings such as a young girl, or even one who conceives at first intercourse. So, the virgin birth is not something that is bedrock of the Christian faith in the first place. (There are many Christians who would strongly disagree with me though. )

Aaah really, i thought that was one of the "main" cores of Christianity, to believe in the Virgin Birth :-\

However, the "Didache" doesnt seem to fully confirm the whole Islaamic belief, if it doesnt even support the virgin birth!

 

[tango92]

why do christians deliberatley ignore the way of life of jesus and follow paul instead?
clearly, even if you read the red letter bible, you wont get any of this.

was jesus decieving his disciples when he told them to worship "the father in heaven" and did not even attach any form of goodness to himself?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't know why the YouTube Video is titled "An Old Bible Found in Palestine Confirms the Quran"? What is shown in the video is NOT a Bible. It is an important Christian book that many suspect actually was written before the documents that became collated and known as the New Testament, but it is not a Bible. To call it an old Bible is false reporting. It also does not confirm the Quran. It was principally a book of worship and ethical instruction used by the early church. There was a time when, though we knew about its existence, that no copies could be located. Then, in 1873, a copy was found.

The early church did keep it and use it among a collection of writings, most of which where eventually incorporated into the canon of scripture. But others, such as the Shepherd of Hermas and the Letter of Barnabas (not to be confused with the alleged Gospel of Barnabas) were not canonized. Remember to make something a part of the canon was to say that is was a rule for faith and practice. And despite the value of it for informing the church with regard to patterns of worship, the church didn't want to say that only the pattern which was expressed by the Didache was valid and even more significantly there were questions about its authorship. Though tradition claimed it to be the teaching of Jesus' disciples, much as the book of Acts was a historical record of their activity, the church was never confident enough of that tradition to declare the Didache on par with the rest of scripture. That in no way diminishes its present historical value for us in the church, and since you have shown interest in it, and it is a relatively small document, I post it in its entirety for you to read for yourself:

The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles,
Commonly Called the Didache
THE TEXT​

The Lord's Teaching to the Heathen by the Twelve Apostles:
1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death; and between the two ways there is a great difference.
2Now, this is the way of life: "First, you must love God who made you, and second, your neighbor as yourself." And whatever you want people to refrain from doing to you, you must not do to them.
3What these maxims teach is this: "Bless those who curse you," and "pray for your enemies." Moreover, fast "for those who persecute you." For "what credit is it to you if you love those who love you? Is that not the way the heathen act?" But "you must love those who hate you," and then you will make no enemies.  
4"Abstain from carnal passions." If someone strikes you "on the right cheek, turn to him the other too, and you will be perfect." If someone "forces you to go one mile with him, go along with him for two"; if someone robs you "of your overcoat, give him your suit as well." If someone deprives you of "your property, do not ask for it back." (You could not get it back anyway!)  
5"Give to everybody who begs from you, and ask for no return." For the Father wants his own gifts to be universally shared. Happy is the man who gives as the commandment bids him, for he is guiltless! But alas for the man who receives! If he receives because he is in need, he will be guiltless. But if he is not in need he will have to stand trial why he received and for what purpose. He will be thrown into prison and have his action investigated; and "he will not get out until he has paid back the last cent."
6 Indeed, there is a further saying that relates to this: "Let your donation sweat in your hands until you know to whom to give it."

2 The second commandment of the Teaching:  
2"Do not murder; do not commit adultery"; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; "do not steal"; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a new-born infant. "Do not covet your neighbor's property;  
3do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness;" do not slander; do not bear grudges.
4Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is "a deadly snare."
5Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action.  
6 Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor.  
7 Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.

3 My child, flee from all wickedness and from everything of that sort.  
2Do not be irritable, for anger leads to murder. Do not be jealous or contentious or impetuous, for all this breeds murder.
3My child, do not be lustful, for lust leads to fornication. Do not use foul language or leer, for all this breeds adultery.
4My child, do not be a diviner, for that leads to idolatry. Do not be an enchanter or an astrologer or a magician. Moreover, have no wish to observe or heed such practices, for all this breeds idolatry.
5My child, do not be a liar, for lying leads to theft. Do not be avaricious or vain, for all this breeds thievery.
6My child, do not be a grumbler, for grumbling leads to blasphemy. Do not be stubborn or evil-minded, for all this breeds blasphemy.
7But be humble since "the humble will inherit the earth."
8 Be patient, merciful, harmless, quiet, and good; and always "have respect for the teaching" you have been given. Do not put on airs or give yourself up to presumptuousness. Do not associate with the high and mighty; but be with the upright and humble. Accept whatever happens to you as good, in the realization that nothing occurs apart from God.

4 My child, day and night "you should remember him who preaches God's word to you," and honor him as you would the Lord. For where the Lord's nature is discussed, there the Lord is.  
2Every day you should seek the company of saints to enjoy their refreshing conversation.  
3You must not start a schism, but reconcile those at strife. "Your judgments must be fair." You must not play favorites when reproving transgressions.  
4You must not be of two minds about your decision.
5Do not be one who holds his hand out to take, but shuts it when it comes to giving.  
6If your labor has brought you earnings, pay a ransom for your sins.  
7Do not hesitate to give and do not give with a bad grace; for you will discover who He is that pays you back a reward with a good grace.  
8Do not turn your back on the needy, but share everything with your brother and call nothing your own. For if you have what is eternal in common, how much more should you have what is transient!
9Do not neglect your responsibility to your son or your daughter, but from their youth you shall teach them to revere God.  
10Do not be harsh in giving orders to your slaves and slave girls. They hope in the same God as you, and the result may be that they cease to revere the God over you both. For when he comes to call us, he will not respect our station, but will call those whom the Spirit has made ready.  
11You slaves, for your part, must obey your masters with reverence and fear, as if they represented God.
12You must hate all hypocrisy and everything which fails to please the Lord.  
13You must not forsake "the Lord's commandments," but "observe" the ones you have been given, "neither adding nor subtracting anything."
14At the church meeting you must confess your sins, and not approach prayer with a bad conscience. That is the way of life.

5 But the way of death is this: First of all, it is wicked and thoroughly blasphemous: murders, adulteries, lusts, fornications, thefts, idolatries, magic arts, sorceries, robberies, false witness, hypocrisies, duplicity, deceit, arrogance, malice, stubbornness, greediness, filthy talk, jealousy, audacity, haughtiness, boastfulness.
2Those who persecute good people, who hate truth, who love lies, who are ignorant of the reward of uprightness, who do not "abide by goodness" or justice, and are on the alert not for goodness but for evil: gentleness and patience are remote from them. "They love vanity," "look for profit," have no pity for the poor, do not exert themselves for the oppressed, ignore their Maker, "murder children," corrupt God's image, turn their backs on the needy, oppress the afflicted, defend the rich, unjustly condemn the poor, and are thoroughly wicked. My children, may you be saved from all this!


6 See "that no one leads you astray" from this way of the teaching, since such a one's teaching is godless.
2If you can bear the Lord's full yoke, you will be perfect. But if you cannot, then do what you can.
3Now about food: undertake what you can. But keep strictly away from what is offered to idols, for that implies worshiping dead gods.

7 Now about baptism: this is how to baptize. Give public instruction on all these points, and then "baptize" in running water, "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
2If you do not have running water, baptize in some other.  
3If you cannot in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, then pour water on the head three times "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
4Before the baptism, moreover, the one who baptizes and the one being baptized must fast, and any others who can. And you must tell the one being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.

8 Your fasts must not be identical with those of the hypocrites. They fast on Mondays and Thursdays; but you should fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.
2You must not pray like the hypocrites, but "pray as follows" as the Lord bid us in his gospel:
"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name; your Kingdom come; your will be done on earth as it is in heaven; give us today our bread for the morrow; and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but save us from the evil one, for yours is the power and the glory forever."
3You should pray in this way three times a day.


9 Now about the Eucharist: This is how to give thanks:  
2First in connection with the cup:
"We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David, your child, which you have revealed through Jesus, your child. To you be glory forever."
3Then in connection with the piece [broken off the loaf]:
"We thank you, our Father, for the life and knowledge which you have revealed through Jesus, your child. To you be glory forever.
4"As this piece [of bread] was scattered over the hills and then was brought together and made one, so let your Church be brought together from the ends of the earth into your Kingdom. For yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever."
5You must not let anyone eat or drink of your Eucharist except those baptized in the Lord's name. For in reference to this the Lord said, "Do not give what is sacred to dogs."

10 After you have finished your meal, say grace in this way:
2"We thank you, holy Father, for your sacred name which you have lodged in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you have revealed through Jesus, your child. To you be glory forever.
3"Almighty Master, 'you have created everything' for the sake of your name, and have given men food and drink to enjoy that they may thank you. But to us you have given spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Jesus, your child.
4"Above all, we thank you that you are mighty. To you be glory forever.
5"Remember, Lord, your Church, to save it from all evil and to make it perfect by your love. Make it holy, 'and gather' it 'together from the four winds' into your Kingdom which you have made ready for it. For yours is the power and the glory forever."
6"Let Grace come and let this world pass away."
"Hosanna to the God of David!"
"If anyone is holy, let him come. If not, let him repent."
"Our Lord, come!"
"Amen."
7In the case of prophets, however, you should let them give thanks in their own way.

11 Now, you should welcome anyone who comes your way and teaches you all we have been saying.  
2 But if the teacher proves himself a renegade and by teaching otherwise contradicts all this, pay no attention to him. But if his teaching furthers the Lord's righteousness and knowledge, welcome him as the Lord.
3Now about the apostles and prophets: Act in line with the gospel precept.
4Welcome every apostle on arriving, as if he were the Lord.  
5But he must not stay beyond one day. In case of necessity, however, the next day too. If he stays three days, he is a false prophet.  
6On departing, an apostle must not accept anything save sufficient food to carry him till his next lodging. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet.
7While a prophet is making ecstatic utterances, you must not test or examine him. For "every sin will be forgiven," but this sin "will not be forgiven."  
8However, not everybody making ecstatic utterances is a prophet, but only if he behaves like the Lord. It is by their conduct that the false prophet and the [true] prophet can be distinguished.  
9For instance, if a prophet marks out a table in the Spirit, he must not eat from it. If he does, he is a false prophet.  
10Again, every prophet who teaches the truth but fails to practice what he preaches is a false prophet.  
11But every attested and genuine prophet who acts with a view to symbolizing the mystery of the Church, and does not teach you to do all he does, must not be judged by you. His judgment rests with God. For the ancient prophets too acted in this way.  
12But if someone says in the Spirit, "Give me money, or something else," you must not heed him. However, if he tells you to give for others in need, no one must condemn him.

12 Everyone "who comes" to you "in the name of the Lord" must be welcomed. Afterward, when you have tested him, you will find out about him, for you have insight into right and wrong.  
2If it is a traveler who arrives, help him all you can. But he must not stay with you more than two days, or, if necessary, three.  
3If he wants to settle with you and is an artisan, he must work for his living.  
4If, however, he has no trade, use your judgment in taking steps for him to live with you as a Christian without being idle.  
5If he refuses to do this, he is trading on Christ. You must be on your guard against such people.

13 Every genuine prophet who wants to settle with you "has a right to his support."  
2Similarly, a genuine teacher himself, just like a "workman, has a right to his support."
3Hence take all the first fruits of vintage and harvest, and of cattle and sheep, and give these first fruits to the prophets. For they are your high priests.  
4If, however, you have no prophet, give them to the poor.  
5If you make bread, take the first fruits and give in accordance with the precept.  
6Similarly, when you open a jar of wine or oil, take the first fruits and give them to the prophets.  
7Indeed, of money, clothes, and of all your possessions, take such first fruits as you think right, and give in accordance with the precept.

14 On every Lord's Day—his special day —come together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.  
2Anyone at variance with his neighbor must not join you, until they are reconciled, lest your sacrifice be defiled.  
3For it was of this sacrifice that the Lord said, "Always and everywhere offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is marveled at by the nations."

15 You must, then, elect for yourselves bishops and deacons who are a credit to the Lord, men who are gentle, generous, faithful, and well tried. For their ministry to you is identical with that of the prophets and teachers.  
2You must not, therefore, despise them, for along with the prophets and teachers they enjoy a place of honor among you.
3Furthermore, do not reprove each other angrily, but quietly, as you find it in the gospel. Moreover, if anyone has wronged his neighbor, nobody must speak to him, and he must not hear a word from you, until he repents.  
4Say your prayers, give your charity, and do everything just as you find it in the gospel of our Lord.

16 "Watch" over your life: do not let "your lamps" go out, and do not keep "your loins ungirded"; but "be ready," for "you do not know the hour when our Lord is coming."  
2Meet together frequently in your search for what is good for your souls, since "a lifetime of faith will be of no advantage" to you unless you prove perfect at the very last.  
3For in the final days multitudes of false prophets and seducers will appear.  
4Sheep will turn into wolves, and love into hatred. For with the increase of iniquity men will hate, persecute, and betray each other. And then the world deceiver will appear in the guise of God's Son. He will work "signs and wonders" and the earth will fall into his hands and he will commit outrages such as have never occurred before.  
5Then mankind will come to the fiery trial "and many will fall away" and perish, "but those who persevere" in their faith "will be saved" by the Curse himself.*
6Then "there will appear the signs" of the Truth: first the sign of stretched-out [hands] in heaven,** then the sign of "a trumpet's blast," and thirdly the resurrection of the dead, though not of all the dead,  
7but as it has been said: "The Lord will come and all his saints with him. Then the world will see the Lord coming on the clouds of the sky."

* - An obscure reference, but possibly meaning the Christ who suffered the death of one accursed (Gal. 3:13; Barn. 7:9). Cf. two other titles for the Christ: Grace (ch. 10:6) and Truth (v. 6).
** - Another obscure reference, possibly to the belief that the Christ would appear on a glorified cross. Cf Barn. 12:2–4.


(source -- "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, Commonly Called the Didache" in Early Christian Fathers, by Cyril C. Richardson, available for reading on Christian Classics Ethereal Library)

 

 

[Grace Seeker]

**edit**
Sorry, double post.

 

[tango92]

even more significantly there were questions about its authorship

.

yet you have no problem accepting a bible which also has questionable authorship. oh well is an everyday thing now, christian hipocrisy.....

 

[Grace Seeker]

.

yet you have no problem accepting a bible which also has questionable authorship. oh well is an everyday thing now, christian hipocrisy.....

I have no problem accepting the Bible. Had I been part of the Council of Trent I probably would have moved to have the Didache included, and not the 2nd and 3rd letters of John -- not because of authorship, of that I am confident, but because I'm not sure of their value for faith and practice. And as far as your assertion of questionable authorship, two points:
1) I agree that there is much of the Bible for whom we will never know the author. Judges was written by an unknown prophet. Who wrote Chronicles? How much of Isaiah was written by the prophet himself, and how much by his disciples? Even in the NT Hebrews has an unknown author. Other books are known. I don't find the arguments of those who dispute the authorship of Paul's letters valid. And those none of the gospels have their authorship attested within the text itself, I am satisfied with the external testimony that identifies them to us as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
2) I personally don't have to know the author to find that a book speaks to me about God. I have met none of these authors. It is enough for me that generations before me have found that God spoke to them through these texts.

 

[tango92]

I have no problem accepting the Bible. Had I been part of the Council of Trent I probably would have moved to have the Didache included, and not the 2nd and 3rd letters of John -- not because of authorship, of that I am confident, but because I'm not sure of their value for faith and practice. And as far as your assertion of questionable authorship, two points:
1) I agree that there is much of the Bible for whom we will never know the author. Judges was written by an unknown prophet. Who wrote Chronicles? How much of Isaiah was written by the prophet himself, and how much by his disciples? Even in the NT Hebrews has an unknown author. Other books are known. I don't find the arguments of those who dispute the authorship of Paul's letters valid. And those none of the gospels have their authorship attested within the text itself, I am satisfied with the external testimony that identifies them to us as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
2) I personally don't have to know the author to find that a book speaks to me about God. I have met none of these authors. It is enough for me that generations before me have found that God spoke to them through these texts.

blind faith. in other words. can you really follow anything for whom God has sent no authority? the quran also has plenty of value for faith and worship, why not accept it?

many works throughout humanity have guided people to god, all have their differences. Will god accept you follow whatever your heart wishes?

i believe many christians hold this view that god personally guides and acts through them, rather arrogant. especially as none have seen miracles.

 

[Grace Seeker]

especially as none have seen miracles.

Where did you come up with that? There is not a church I have been in where people haven't testified to miracles they themselves have experienced. Some probably aren't, but others seem to be fully credible. I have seen holes in hearts healed, bones in legs grow. My own father was declared dead last year, but is alive today and healthier than he had been for the last couple of years. And some things that can in a sense be explained as coincidence or exceptional skill seem no less miraculous that God might bring them about in the way that he did. Surely in a previous age, these things would have been called miracles. So, I disagree that none have seen miracles. Plenty have, if only they would open their eyes to what God is doing everyday.

blind faith. in other words.

Perhaps. It certainly is faith, though I don't think it is blind I go in with my eyes open to what I know and what I accept on faith. You wouldn't call your faith in the mircale of the Qur'an "blind faith" would you. Yet it certainly is faith, for neither you nor anyone else was present when Muhammad supposedly received the Qur'an. And even if you had been, would you have been able to hear the recitation? And if you had, how would you have known the identity of the speaker, that message the speaker delivered was actually from God, or that the speaker delivered it accurately and faithfully? At some point there is an element of faith in each of our traditions.

 

[tango92]

Where did you come up with that? There is not a church I have been in where people haven't testified to miracles they themselves have experienced. Some probably aren't, but others seem to be fully credible. I have seen holes in hearts healed, bones in legs grow. My own father was declared dead last year, but is alive today and healthier than he had been for the last couple of years. And some things that can in a sense be explained as coincidence or exceptional skill seem no less miraculous that God might bring them about in the way that he did. Surely in a previous age, these things would have been called miracles. So, I disagree that none have seen miracles. Plenty have, if only they would open their eyes to what God is doing everyday.

if that is the case every person on earth will have experienced a miracle at some point in their lives. therefore we cannot consider such things testimony of gods approval of a person or of their religion. isnt childbirth in that sense a miracle? 2 microscopic entities forming a being, wasnt hitler born this way?

a true miracle is something which does not occur within the confines of nature. an example is a vrigin birth, or giving life to the (long time) dead which is something God gave to Jesus pbuh authorising him as a prophet and rightly guided. can christians show any such thing today?

and be4 u ask the quran is the miracle of the muslims but that is a different thread...

 

[PouringRain]

Aaah really, i thought that was one of the "main" cores of Christianity, to believe in the Virgin Birth :-\

For the most part it is. I probably did not explain very well what I was trying to say. The account in the gospels tells of a virgin named Mary (who has never known a man) and she conceives Jesus through supernatural means by way of God's spirit. So, on one hand, the concept of a virgin conception is certainly there within Christianity. The OT citation comes from Isaiah, where it is told that a "virgin" will conceive and bring forth a child. In Isaiah, the word for "virgin" can also mean other things, and does not necessarily mean a woman who has never known a man. For this reason, it is not essential that she be a virgin as we understand the word to mean. While Christians, for the most part, understand the account in the NT to mean a virgin as someone who is untouched by a man, this interpretation is not something that is set in stone and immovable. God can accomplish his plans by any means he chooses and in not limited to playing by the rules of our limited understandings and limited linguistic expressions.

In short, the vast majority of Christians subscribe to the virgin conception (as we understand the word virgin to mean), but if it were not found to be true then the Christian faith would not fall apart, because it is not built upon that understanding (and alternate explanations are plausible given differences in interpretation of words contained in scripture). This is why I say it is not a bedrock of the faith.... because without it and the faith still stands. (Although there are those who will disagree with me.)

 

[Grace Seeker]

a true miracle is something which does not occur within the confines of nature. an example is a vrigin birth, or giving life to the (long time) dead which is something God gave to Jesus pbuh authorising him as a prophet and rightly guided. can christians show any such thing today?

I told you. I have seen holes in a child's heart (not an infant, a 10-year old) heal themselves and the legs of an adult that were two inches different have the shorter one grow two inches longer. Both without any medical assistance. These things do not happen within the confines of nature. But THE miracle which we Christians have, ought to be obvious to you -- the Resurrection.



BTW, though you didn't ask, I don't think that God confines his miracles to only Christians or as a means of identifying his prophets.

 

[tango92]

BTW, though you didn't ask, I don't think that God confines his miracles to only Christians or as a means of identifying his prophets.

then surely god has left no real way to identify the truth.

 

[Hugo]

blind faith. in other words. can you really follow anything for whom God has sent no authority? the quran also has plenty of value for faith and worship, why not accept it?

Your premise assumes God exits so logically it cannot be shown to be true or false. However, can you list what you would regard as authorities and amongst those authorities are there any material ones?

 

[tango92]

Your premise assumes God exits so logically it cannot be shown to be true or false. However, can you list what you would regard as authorities and amongst those authorities are there any material ones?

God gives authority by miracles

 

[Hugo]

God gives authority by miracles

Well I know that the Bible quotes many miracles and they have to be seen as that. The trouble is that there is a logical fallacy here and its a very simple one. Suppose I say that a particular person's odd behaviour is due to demon possession. Well indeed that might be the true explanation but there is no way I can show it to be true or false and it is obvious there may be many other perfectly reasonable explanations of the odd behaviours. The same applies if you claim a miracle, there is no way you can prove that it was from god or not. In medical science for examples, it is known that about 1% of people with just get better for no medical reason.

The other issues of course is that if you see something unusual you don't automatically see them as miracles do you. The point is that whatever test you invent for check if its a miracles must apply to any supposed event one cannot pick and choose. So if you say the Qu'ran is a miracle and tell me how I can test it then the same tests can be applied to any book .