Interesting find - Christians please comment

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then surely god has left no real way to identify the truth.

This is an interesting idea and one establishes the truth by collecting 'facts' hopefully in a scientific manner and in that sense I mean they can be checked and re-checked. However, when it comes to let's call them spiritual truths it is unlikely there are material artefact we can use. So I might simple ask when you apply the truth in your life does it work - is your life better, are you more loving and tolerant, are you more disposed to helping others etc. Just a thought
 
That's an interesting conclusion. Not one I would have arrived at, but you do help me to understand Islamic thinking better. I won't argue with you, I just appreciate the insight you have provided.

hmm that was just my personal opinion, i stress you do not judge all muslims from my own viewpoint

many (if not the majority) of muslims simply hear the message and revert
 
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i cba to quote, so this is a reply to both grace seeker and hugo

i withdraw my previous statement of saying God has left no real way to identify the truth, it was said in haste

this thread is far too off-topic now, which was probably mostly my fault. i hope we can continue this discussion in a future thread after ive had time to think.....
 
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then surely god has left no real way to identify the truth.
This is how true believers know the Truth, and thus "identify" the Truth ...

“But now I (Jesus) go away to Him (Father God) who sent Me …
It is to your advantage that I go away;
for if I do not go away, the Helper (the Holy Spirit) will not come to you;
but if I depart, I will send Him to you.“ (John 16:5--7)

“And I will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you (as the Holy Spirit).
… And We (God) will come to him (the believer) and make Our home with him.
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things
that I said to you.” (John 14:16--26)
The Greek word here for "another" is "allos" meaning "another of the same kind".
 
You must be reading different verses to me, as they say nothing of the sort. The entity concerned is clearly not a human being.

BTW according to the Oxford Greek dictionary, not to mention a couple of online ones referring specifically to Koine (NT) Greek, the meaning of ἄλλος is no more than just 'another' or 'other'. I'm struggling to think of an instance of when the English 'another' could mean anything other than "another of the same kind" anyway; surely to be 'another', a second entity has to be of the same kind of thing as the first? I'm no Greek scholar though - perhaps there is something contextual that suggests a particular emphasis of meaning.
 
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You must be reading different verses to me, as they say nothing of the sort. The entity concerned is clearly not a human being

I'm struggling to think of an instance of when the English 'another' could mean anything other than "another of the same kind" anyway

Jesus pbuh was a human being wasn't he?
so another helper must also have been a human being , right?

He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things
that I said to you.”

And prophet Muhammad SAW confirmed jesus pbuh and the injeel conveyed by Jesus pbuh, so this "another" helper must have been prophet Muhammad SAW.
 
You must be reading different verses to me, as they say nothing of the sort. The entity concerned is clearly not a human being

I'm struggling to think of an instance of when the English 'another' could mean anything other than "another of the same kind" anyway

Jesus pbuh was a human being wasn't he?
so another helper must also have been a human being , right?

He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things
that I said to you.”

And prophet Muhammad SAW confirmed jesus pbuh and the injeel conveyed by Jesus pbuh, so this "another" helper must have been prophet Muhammad SAW.
 
You must be reading different verses to me, as they say nothing of the sort. The entity concerned is clearly not a human being.

BTW according to the Oxford Greek dictionary, not to mention a couple of online ones referring specifically to Koine (NT) Greek, the meaning of ἄλλος is no more than just 'another' or 'other'. I'm struggling to think of an instance of when the English 'another' could mean anything other than "another of the same kind" anyway; surely to be 'another', a second entity has to be of the same kind of thing as the first? I'm no Greek scholar though - perhaps there is something contextual that suggests a particular emphasis of meaning.


Trumble, though you're right on the above, there is more to it than just what the word allos means. Take a look at ALL the things that we are told are going to be true with regard to this HELPER.

14:17 "The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him."
(I can see how a Muslim might think this is true of Muhammad.)
14:17 "But you know him..."
(As this is spoken to the disciples, there was no way for them to know Muhammad who would not be born for another 600 years.)
14:17 "...for he lives with you and will be in you."
(I've heard no Muslim ever assert that Muhammad lives with us and in us.)
14:26 "But the Counselor [or "Helper" if you prefer that translation], the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name..."
(Muhammad is not sent in Jesus' name. Prophets are not sent in the name of other propehts, but in Allah's name. Also, if Muhammad were to be sent in "the FATHER'S name", would it not imply that Allah is a Father and has a son? That would be shirk.)
14:26 "...will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
(I can see how a Muslim would think this is true of Muhammad.)
16:7 "Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."
(Is Muhammad sent by Jesus? I thought he was sent by Allah. This can only be true if Jesus is Allah. For Christians there is not contradiction between 14:26 and 16:7 because of our understanding of the Trinity. Somehow I don't expect Muslims to accept this to be describing either the sending of Muhammad nor the nature of the relationship between Jesus and Allah. But if it doesn't, then it can't be describing Muhammad as the Helper either.)
16:8 "When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment..."
(I can see how Muslims would think this is true of Muhammad."
16:9 "... in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me [i.e., Jesus]"
(I have a much harder time seeing how any Muslim would think that Muhammad came to call people to believe in Jesus, in his message perhaps, but to believe in Jesus personally seems a bit of a stretch.)
16:10 "...in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer"
(As long as Muslims don't mind Muhammad being connected to an understanding of Allah as "the Father", I don't suppose there is anything unIslamic about Muhammad convicting people with regard to righteousness.)
16:11 "...and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned."
(I can see how Muslims would think this is true of Muhammad.)
16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."
(I can see how Muslims would think this is true of Muhammad.)
16:13 "He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
(I can see how Muslims would think this is true of Muhammad.)
16:14 "He will bring glory to me."
(I cannot conceive of any Muslim suggesting that Muhammad came to bring glory to anyone but Allah. Unless Muslims are willing to confess Jesus and Allah as one, I would suggest that Muhammad is NOT the Helper.)
16:15 "the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."
(The Christian understanding of this verse is that the Spirit interprets and applies the character of Jesus to the disciples and by so doing makes him central to their thinking. The Spirit makes God a reality to people. Though Muhammad makes Allah a reality to people, it hardly seems that he does so in the same way that the Spirit is described as doing so in this verse.)
Taken as a whole, the Helper (in my opinion the Holy Spirit) serves to confirm what Jesus has shared with his disciples. He does not add anything new to the teachings of Jesus. His mission is to enable people to see the validity of what Jesus taught and to help them appropriate Jesus' message as their own. All this might be understood by Muslims to be true of Muhammad, for they would assert that Jesus and Muhammad had the same message. But the Holy Spirit does one thing more that Muhammad cannot do, the Spirit becomes a source of divine power living within the individual to assist them to live as Jesus lived. The Sunnah of the Prophet might be a model of how to live the life of Islam, but it does not actually empower you or internally assist you in the same way that the Helper does. In other words, Muhammad (p) does fit some things, but he doesn't fit them all, so he must be excluded from being the Helper that Jesus is referencing. Given that, the question of the exact meaning of the word allos becomes moot.
 
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Jesus pbuh was a human being wasn't he?
so another helper must also have been a human being , right?

Wrong. There is no logical, syntactic or semantic reason to favour a particular characteristic over any other. To be 'another helper', an entity needs only be a helper. No other common property is needed, be it type of entity, species, eye colour or shoe size. Your argument could equally well be applied to "Jesus had a small birthmark on his nose so another helper must also have a small birthmark on his nose"!
 
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Wrong. There is no logical, syntactic or semantic reason to favour a particular characteristic over any other. To be 'another helper', an entity needs only be a helper. No other common property is needed, be it type of entity, species, eye colour or shoe size. Your argument could equally well be applied to "Jesus had a small birthmark on his nose so another helper must also have a small birthmark on his nose"!

Can you tell me how prophet Muhammad does not fit the description in those verses?

Or are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?
 
16:14 "He will bring glory to me."
(I cannot conceive of any Muslim suggesting that Muhammad came to bring glory to anyone but Allah. Unless Muslims are willing to confess Jesus and Allah as one, I would suggest that Muhammad is NOT the Helper.)


Glorify also means to honor someone So, How does Muhammad honor Jesus ?

By affirming that he was indeed a legitimate Son of Mary and that he is company of the righteous and that their religion is one

"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one


Volume 4, Book 55, Number 644 :
Narrated by 'Ubada
The Prophet said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is Allah's Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few." (Junada, the sub-narrator said, " 'Ubada added, 'Such a person can enter Paradise through any of its eight gates he likes.")

And this honor was required as Bible and Talmud had belittled Jesus in their scriptures


The Jewish Satanic Talmud writes

Sanhedrin, 67a ~ Jesus is referred to as the illegitimate son of Pandira, a Roman soldier.
Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus’ mother was a *****

Pandira is a Roman soldier alleged by the jews to have raped Mary to produce her illegitimate offsping { May God forbid}May He forgive us for even reproucing such blasphemies.)

Sanhedrin, 107b. ~ Seduced, corrupted and destroyed Israel
Sanhedrin 43a ~ Says Jesus practiced sorcery.

And The christians also reduced God to level of a human being by saying God begot son when God cannot create "Uncreated Gods"

And they said : Most Gracious has begotten a son!

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
[89] Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
[90] As if the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin.
[91] That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
[92] For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son
[93] Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.Quran 19.88..93 ( Surat Maryam , verses 88 .. 93)


And also Bible exposes Jesus as not a righteous person

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/is_the_biblical_jesus_such_a_great_person_​
 
I would like to remind everyone that the passage in John is ultimately irrelevant to Muslims since it is not one of our own texts and was not al-Injeel. And all the Koran says is that at some point Jesus (P) mentioned that someone named Ahmad would come after him. It doesn't even say whether this statement had ever been written down anywhere before.
 
GraceSeeker said:
I personally don't have to know the author to find that a book speaks to me about God. I have met none of these authors. It is enough for me that generations before me have found that God spoke to them through these texts.

And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! we follow what we found our fathers upon. What! and though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way? (Koran 2:170, Shakir)
 
I would like to remind everyone that the passage in John is ultimately irrelevant to Muslims since it is not one of our own texts and was not al-Injeel. And all the Koran says is that at some point Jesus (P) mentioned that someone named Ahmad would come after him. It doesn't even say whether this statement had ever been written down anywhere before.

Just a point for clarity here - how do you know it is not al-Injeel?
 
just a side note... i didnt get to watch the video..
but MOST mainstream ... valid christian religions... DO believe that Jesus was the son of Mary who was a virgin.

another side note... i always thought it neat that the same angel went to mary as who went to Mohammed (pbuh ) w/ the Koran.

I don't think that makes anything invalid I just think its beautiful... ( here's serena being aspy again ) virgin birth for christians - Koran for muslims... both something that had never existed before.
Salaam
to all
Serena
 
Just a point for clarity here - how do you know it is not al-Injeel?

al injeel was revealed to Jesus a.s., and not to some unknown person in the 2nd century, whom later day christians named "john"
 

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