Iranians fired up over election

[The_Prince]

OK, delete Hamas. How about the Shi'a who walks into the Sunni market and blows him/herself up? Show me where you have cried over that.

there is a recent thread on the taliban where i speak against them for killing other Muslims, and you wont find any statement from me that supports such suicide bombings whether from a shia against a sunni or a sunni against a shia.

and with all that i have indeed spoken against the civil war violence in Iraq.

 

[Tony]

I'm very sad to Muslims acting in such a manor. The underlined problem in Iran is Greed. One man refuses to let go of his power. This is not Islam. As a convert, my Muslim brothers and sisters are setting such a bad example. They’re more worried about power money other then what needs to be addressed, the religion. When are we going to learn??? Its disheartening to see the last perfected religion Allah has given us, the human race has tainted it too. I'm spiritually confused.

as far as I can see only one man got politics and religion absolutely right, may Allah make us all to be like Rasulullah, Ameen

 

[Grace Seeker]

people who are in the majority, living under occupation, with NO COUNTRY, and rise up to fight their occupiers for freedom is not bullying or intimidating to simply get their way, its them fighting for their freedom and right to live in their homes. but graceseeker u just exposed yourself, because from your latest comment it shows how you downgrade the Palestinian suffering and what their really going through with your shallow comparison, therein again highlighting the western hypocrisy.

As you said about those who support Mousavi -- they lost. Well, the folks in Gaza did too. 40 years ago they attacked Israel and they lost. Israel made peace with it's neighbors and that peace included these territories where the Palestinians live. I don't have to agree that it was fair, but it is what it is and was decided between sovereign nations of whom these Palestinians should have been represented by their leadership. I don't think that the Egyptians or the Jordanians really cared much about what happened to them, but you can't blame Israel for that, they were the party that was attacked. Lots to blame Israel for since then, but if we are simply going to use the prinicipal you suggested -- "the protesters lost a vote, didnt get power, so now they want to bully everyone else to get their way" -- the hypocrisy is to think that the Palestinians are doing anything different than these protestors in Iran. Seems to me that you are exposing your own hypocrisy as much as anything you accuse me of.

 

[alcurad]

actions of certain governments shouldn't be generalized, most people usually have very little say in such matters.
this thread took a downward spiral recently, we all would benefit from civilized disagreement, otherwise the prophet says:
مَن كانَ يُؤمنُ باللهِ والَيومِ الآخِر فليَـقُل خَيراً أوِليَصْمُت

Let The Believer In Allah And Day Of Judgment Either Speak Good Or Keep Silent.

not that truth shouldn't be spoken, and wrong-doing not condemned.

 

[The_Prince]

As you said about those who support Mousavi -- they lost. Well, the folks in Gaza did too. 40 years ago they attacked Israel and they lost. Israel made peace with it's neighbors and that peace included these territories where the Palestinians live. I don't have to agree that it was fair, but it is what it is and was decided between sovereign nations of whom these Palestinians should have been represented by their leadership. I don't think that the Egyptians or the Jordanians really cared much about what happened to them, but you can't blame Israel for that, they were the party that was attacked. Lots to blame Israel for since then, but if we are simply going to use the prinicipal you suggested -- "the protesters lost a vote, didnt get power, so now they want to bully everyone else to get their way" -- the hypocrisy is to think that the Palestinians are doing anything different than these protestors in Iran. Seems to me that you are exposing your own hypocrisy as much as anything you accuse me of.

zzz again your comparisons are fruitless. as for history, go check history, the zionists attacked first, killing and stealing land while kicking people out, so even at that front your wrong, your basically wrong on every point, each one, .

 

[ragdollcat1982]

As you said about those who support Mousavi -- they lost. Well, the folks in Gaza did too. 40 years ago they attacked Israel and they lost. Israel made peace with it's neighbors and that peace included these territories where the Palestinians live. I don't have to agree that it was fair, but it is what it is and was decided between sovereign nations of whom these Palestinians should have been represented by their leadership. I don't think that the Egyptians or the Jordanians really cared much about what happened to them, but you can't blame Israel for that, they were the party that was attacked. Lots to blame Israel for since then, but if we are simply going to use the prinicipal you suggested -- "the protesters lost a vote, didnt get power, so now they want to bully everyone else to get their way" -- the hypocrisy is to think that the Palestinians are doing anything different than these protestors in Iran. Seems to me that you are exposing your own hypocrisy as much as anything you accuse me of.

eygpt made peace with Israel. As far as Iran goes things are going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[The_Prince]

eygpt made peace with Israel. As far as Iran goes things are going to get worse before it gets better.

yes, thanks to you.

 

[Zafran]

As you said about those who support Mousavi -- they lost. Well, the folks in Gaza did too. 40 years ago they attacked Israel and they lost. Israel made peace with it's neighbors and that peace included these territories where the Palestinians live. I don't have to agree that it was fair, but it is what it is and was decided between sovereign nations of whom these Palestinians should have been represented by their leadership. I don't think that the Egyptians or the Jordanians really cared much about what happened to them, but you can't blame Israel for that, they were the party that was attacked. Lots to blame Israel for since then, but if we are simply going to use the prinicipal you suggested -- "the protesters lost a vote, didnt get power, so now they want to bully everyone else to get their way" -- the hypocrisy is to think that the Palestinians are doing anything different than these protestors in Iran. Seems to me that you are exposing your own hypocrisy as much as anything you accuse me of.

No idea what book you read that but Isreal stole land in 1948 - thats why there is a problem right now called the right to return problem. The only thing the palestianins have done wrong is suicide bombing - other then they havent gained anything from it.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

yes, thanks to you.

how do you know?

 

[Grace Seeker]

zzz again your comparisons are fruitless. as for history, go check history, the zionists attacked first, killing and stealing land while kicking people out, so even at that front your wrong, your basically wrong on every point, each one, .

I suppose each person reads history differently depending on where one stands to view it from. I see a lot of similarity between the Palestinians and the protestors in Iran. I think both groups are in the right to express their disastifaction with the continuance of the status quo. But if you are going to say that having lost or won is sufficient grounds for determining who is right, then both Israel and Ahmedinajab one and the Palestinians and Mousavi's supporters can protest all they want, but they certainly shouldn't incite violence just because they lost. Get over it. Get on with your lives.

That you can't see the similarity and how your argument for one can also be applied to the other is, I suspect, because you support one and not the other. And that your support of their agenda is what determines your evaluation of the "rightness" of the various causes shows that you are less than an unbiased observer when you label others as hyprocrits and fail to see same presence in your own writings. Move on, you're becoming a one note singer.

 

[Grace Seeker]

No idea what book you read that but Isreal stole land in 1948 - thats why there is a problem right now called the right to return problem. The only thing the palestianins have done wrong is suicide bombing - other then they havent gained anything from it.

Gaza belonged to Egypt, not the Palestinians, when Egypt attacked Israel in 1967. Egypt lost. That land was then transferred to Israel. Israel has been wrong in the way they treated the Palestinians who should not have been removed from the places they lived within Israel, but as far as Gaza and the West Bank go, there is no right to a Palestinian state based on history. (Unless one is going to argue ancient biblical history, which I don't suggest is a legitimate source of determining modern states -- neither Israel nor Palestiine.) The right is found not in history but in the reality of the people to some degree of self determination and their own sense of nationhood, because they deserve a place to call their own just as much as the Jews do. And I support that, just not the way they are going about it.

 

[north_malaysian]

it started as Mousavi-Karroubi vs Ahmadinejad, now it became Rafsanjani-Montazeri-Sanei-Khatami vs Ali Khamenei....

whatsoever... killing protesters is not Islamic... that's why the world is so upset about Iran...

 

[Grace Seeker]

there is a recent thread on the taliban where i speak against them for killing other Muslims, and you wont find any statement from me that supports such suicide bombings whether from a shia against a sunni or a sunni against a shia.

and with all that i have indeed spoken against the civil war violence in Iraq.

Prince, with all of the different ways I've challenged most of your recent posts, I need to take the time to also acknowledge these efforts you mention. Most of us in the west feel the same when either our political leaders or media commentators act or speak in ways that we see are inconsistent with working for peace that we all want. The problem is that each of us has a different blind spot, mine is on issue A, while yours is on issue B, while God looks down on both of us and wonders how it could be that we focus more on showing the other person their blind spots than doing something to fix our own. Thank-you for taking steps to do something about it and living out your convictions by working for peace in these ways.

 

[Zafran]

Gaza belonged to Egypt, not the Palestinians, when Egypt attacked Israel in 1967. Egypt lost. That land was then transferred to Israel. Israel has been wrong in the way they treated the Palestinians who should not have been removed from the places they lived within Israel, but as far as Gaza and the West Bank go, there is no right to a Palestinian state based on history. (Unless one is going to argue ancient biblical history, which I don't suggest is a legitimate source of determining modern states -- neither Israel nor Palestiine.) The right is found not in history but in the reality of the people to some degree of self determination and their own sense of nationhood, because they deserve a place to call their own just as much as the Jews do. And I support that, just not the way they are going about it.

Thats not true at all - there is something called the two state settlemet issue backed by the international community - under international law - History does not decide anything - its the international law that is the basis for peace. Which states

-All of Gaza
- All of West bank
- East Jerusalem as capital

All these Belong to the palestinains under international law - which would create a palestinain state side by side with the Isreali state - Do you know who has been voting against this solution for the past 30 years???

 

[alcurad]

this is an internal dispute, I don't believe it's anything like Palestine/Israel. unless of course, a one state solution is implemented.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thats not true at all - there is something called the two state settlemet issue backed by the international community - under international law - History does not decide anything - its the international law that is the basis for peace. Which states

-All of Gaza
- All of West bank
- East Jerusalem as capital

All these Belong to the palestinains under international law - which would create a palestinain state side by side with the Isreali state - Do you know who has been voting against this solution for the past 30 years???

I actutally think we are in agreement. We both agree that Palestinians have deserve their own homeland. Yet neither of us uses history to justify it. I said, "there is no right to a Palestinian state based on history." You said, "History does not decide anything." So, it seems we agree that while the Palestinians should have their own country that we don't turn to history to make that determination. Rather, we turn some place else for that justification.

You anchor that in international law. I concur with that international consensus because of what I call a moral law of right of self-determination that has been previously ignored with regard to Palestinians from the end of WW1till today.

 

[Zafran]

I actutally think we are in agreement. We both agree that Palestinians have deserve their own homeland. Yet neither of us uses history to justify it. I said, "there is no right to a Palestinian state based on history." You said, "History does not decide anything." So, it seems we agree that while the Palestinians should have their own country that we don't turn to history to make that determination. Rather, we turn some place else for that justification.

You anchor that in international law. I concur with that international consensus because of what I call a moral law of right of self-determination that has been previously ignored with regard to Palestinians from the end of WW1till today.

ok - but do you know whos been stopping this two state peace plan made by the international community under intrernational law for over 30 years? its the US and Isreal with Americas Veto - but im sure you knew that being an american.

ps - history doesnt solve the problem - I mean we can argue all day about who was there first and on and on but we wont get anyway constructively - however there is a law which should be followed and upheld. However so far the law is being...... lets just say destroyed by Veto of the US. Maybe the Obama can change things.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I actutally think we are in agreement. We both agree that Palestinians have deserve their own homeland. Yet neither of us uses history to justify it. I said, "there is no right to a Palestinian state based on history." You said, "History does not decide anything." So, it seems we agree that while the Palestinians should have their own country that we don't turn to history to make that determination. Rather, we turn some place else for that justification.

You anchor that in international law. I concur with that international consensus because of what I call a moral law of right of self-determination that has been previously ignored with regard to Palestinians from the end of WW1till today.

Of course they have a historic right to live there. Arabs have occupied the land for at least 1400 years.

 

[Amadeus85]

The bad thing was that some people died and got hurt. Without that these protests would have been stopped some time ago. But now, since the blood has been shed, everything gets at the higher level of the seriousness.

 

[north_malaysian]

why we're talking about Palestine in Iran thread? this is Iranians vs Iranians, not Jews vs Arabs...