Is Europe's future Christian?

[Uthman]

Link: Is Europe's future Christian?

 

[Uthman]

Monday's response:

Grace Davie: Europe has been changed fundamentally by an influx of peoples from around the world. But faith, and Christian faith, remain part of its basic character

 

[Uthman]

Tuesday's Response

 

[KAding]

Only God knows!

 

[KAding]

Some interesting points in both articles, I agree with this in particular (from 'Tuesday response'):

Europeans, moreover, should ensure that there is a place in their societies for those who take faith seriously, whatever that faith might be. These people will still be disproportionately Christian, but in ways rather different from their forebears. Little will be gained, conversely, by denying the realities of the past, by contempt for the seriously religious, and by the (sometimes deliberate) cultivation of ignorance about faiths of any kind.

Non-believers in Europe should be careful not to fall for 'secular fundamentalism', whereby they get all worked up about religious expressions in the form of headscarfs, preaching or even something like homophobia. Live and let live please, in other words don't follow the French example!

 

[Strzelecki]

No, insha'Allah.
Alhamdulillah.

 

[Foxhole]

Some interesting points in both articles, I agree with this in particular (from 'Tuesday response'):



Non-believers in Europe should be careful not to fall for 'secular fundamentalism', whereby they get all worked up about religious expressions in the form of headscarfs, preaching or even something like homophobia. Live and let live please, in other words don't follow the French example!

In other words, they should allow free religious practice, while maintaining secular governing and legal systems. Kind of like in the US.

That might fly with you and me, and probably with many Muslims on this board. But for other Muslims, the goal of establishing and enforcing Islamic law must be pursued, even if peacefully over time, wherever Muslims live. This is a fundamental incompatibility that must be confronted sooner than later, and cannot be talked around.

 

[Amadeus85]

Assuming that majority of europeans stopped practicing about 30 years ago, and christian civilization exists there since more than 1 thousand years I have good reason to claim that it will be either christian or no Europe.

 

[Clover]

I don't think so. I think Muslims will eventually be the norm in Europe, probably not in a decade, but maybe in 2-3 decades. I personally, hope they keep a lot of their basic art ideals, and don't adopt all of the Muslim art. For instance, I am a killer for Gothic style cathedrals, they look amazing to me.

 

[suffiyan007]

is depend on you....! is u wanna make used islam in Europe....but depend on God also...all in His will....the Qadar and Qadha...of Allah.

all had written in Lahuz mahfuz...insyaallah.

 

[Blackpool]

I think Europe will continue to be secularist. Secularism is rising much faster than any religion. As I have stated, there have been a fair few "muslims" that have come over to the UK and drop their religious practices, though they still label themselves "muslims."

 

[Thinker]

Europe is de facto, historically and predominantly culturally Christian but will (IMHO) become increasingly secular. Those that are committed to a religion (as most here are) appear to believe that it is a choice of this religion or that rather than none. It is also a fact that, in the world, religion has had and continues to have a greater influence amongst the uneducated and information deprived populations; the reason for that is obvious. It is also a fact that, in the history of the world, more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. It was that way in Europe 500 years ago and the reason it is not that way now is because of education, access to information and freedom of expression. As long as people are educated and have access to uncensored information and are free to think you will always get the vast majority reverting to the natural inclination of mankind which is to strive towards increasing their material benefits, improving the conditions in which they live and pursuing those things that interest and comfort them. The Taliban know this and that’s why they are destroying schools.

The phenomena we see today in the rise in Islamic fundamentalism will only survive amongst populations deprived of education and freedom.

 

[Zafran]

Europe is de facto, historically and predominantly culturally Christian but will (IMHO) become increasingly secular. Those that are committed to a religion (as most here are) appear to believe that it is a choice of this religion or that rather than none. It is also a fact that, in the world, religion has had and continues to have a greater influence amongst the uneducated and information deprived populations; the reason for that is obvious. It is also a fact that, in the history of the world, more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. It was that way in Europe 500 years ago and the reason it is not that way now is because of education, access to information and freedom of expression. As long as people are educated and have access to uncensored information and are free to think you will always get the vast majority reverting to the natural inclination of mankind which is to strive towards increasing their material benefits, improving the conditions in which they live and pursuing those things that interest and comfort them. The Taliban know this and that’s why they are destroying schools.
The phenomena we see today in the rise in Islamic fundamentalism will only survive amongst populations deprived of education and freedom.

First of all yes europes future is secularsits/ right wing.

and secodanly no the taliban dont care about those things you have stated at all and are not destorying the swat area because they know about what you have stated below -

The Taliban know this and that’s why they are destroying schools.

the reasons are very simple - they think they are right and see the "new" things as destroying what they stand for - preety simple as that. They are also against the occupation fullstop and cant stand the invasions.

education is a broad term - its also a form of indoctrination of whatever system of education it may be eg - Islamic or communist or western or Facist - maybe destroying the schools is a reaction to western occupation and they see it as a negative indoctrination to the people and there pasthun culture.

Your post also seems like something Bush would say "they are against our freedoms" which is well known now that its not realy the case at all.

It is also a fact that, in the history of the world, more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. It was that way in Europe 500 years ago and the reason it is not that way now is because of education, access to information and freedom of expression.

Yes religion as acted as an oppresive agent in many parts of the world including in europe historically but most people have been killed in the name of communism, facism and liberal democracy - the 20th century was a secular atheist century and more people have died in the wars (ww1/ww2) then any wars ever fought - we are talking in a few decades becasue of the ability to kill people easily in the modern era as also created the world as an unsafe and far more dangerous place.

For exmaple in europe jews were persected historically for a long time but you couldnt kill people as systematically and as efficently until the Nazis came who were educated enough to make gas chambers and many other mass crazy ideas - they commited a terrible thing - thanks to modern technology which could not be achieved without "education".

IMO people need to learn some serious morals otherwise we are all in trobule.

 

[Amadeus85]

Europe is de facto, historically and predominantly culturally Christian but will (IMHO) become increasingly secular. Those that are committed to a religion (as most here are) appear to believe that it is a choice of this religion or that rather than none. It is also a fact that, in the world, religion has had and continues to have a greater influence amongst the uneducated and information deprived populations; the reason for that is obvious. It is also a fact that, in the history of the world, more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason.
.

One of my proffesors who teach about medieval, said that in those times, when religion ruled the minds of the people and the kingdoms, during a war some cruel acts sometimes did happen, but never on a mass scale. When people believed in God, they did attack fiercly armed enemies, but didnt attack civilians. After the enlightment we had first concentration camps (in french Wandea during the Revolution), first total war (with attacking civilians as one of ways of fightings) - in American Civil War, in a country built by enlightment rules. Then two children of enlightment and rationalism, communism and german racism created biggest hecatombs ever seen. So if we have a progress, its surely a progress in dehumanization of a person and progress in killing.

 

[Zafran]

One of my proffesors who teach about medieval, said that in those times, when religion ruled the minds of the people and the kingdoms, during a war some cruel acts sometimes did happen, but never on a mass scale. When people believed in God, they did attack fiercly armed enemies, but didnt attack civilians. After the enlightment we had first concentration camps (in french Wandea during the Revolution), first total war (with attacking civilians as one of ways of fightings) - in American Civil War, in a country built by enlightment rules. Then two children of enlightment and rationalism, communism and german racism created biggest hecatombs ever seen. So if we have a progress, its surely a progress in dehumanization of a person and progress in killing.

I agree with you on this - the religous wars were not as nasty and brutal as modern wars - especially when you campare them with the facist, French revolution, 2 world wars etc - holocaust - those were just on a crazy scale

a note on education and religious people in the past were not just uneducated stupid people - even in europe you had people like Thomas Aqunais - and if we go to the medieveal Islamic world eg spain you had people like Ibn Rushd, al Farabi and Zuhr. For the jewish end Momiedes - these were educated religous people.

You also had the code of chivellry in europe and a similar concept in the islamic world.

 

[Yanal]

:salamext:
As the responses are it is hard to tell because the responses depend on the person who is asked,if it does happen if inshAllah it does not,you(all forum members in england) can come here to my house.

:salamext:

 

[Suomipoika]

One of my proffesors who teach about medieval, said that in those times, when religion ruled the minds of the people and the kingdoms, during a war some cruel acts sometimes did happen, but never on a mass scale. When people believed in God, they did attack fiercly armed enemies, but didnt attack civilians. After the enlightment we had first concentration camps (in french Wandea during the Revolution), first total war (with attacking civilians as one of ways of fightings) - in American Civil War, in a country built by enlightment rules. Then two children of enlightment and rationalism, communism and german racism created biggest hecatombs ever seen. So if we have a progress, its surely a progress in dehumanization of a person and progress in killing.

When medieval armies invaded, it usually involved a lot of mass scale raping, pillaging and indiscriminate killing, the first most notable examples that come to my mind being the fall of Constantinople and Jerusalem and the total slaughter of Carthago where it simply ceased to exist after its revolt. The slaughter of Latins by Byzantines, the slaughter of Cyprus by Ottomans.

Slaughtering jews wasn't exactly something Hitler invented, both muslims and christians have proud history of doing that during medieval times. Id suggest reading about Al-Andalus and Southern Spain, before and after Reconquista or what Crusader armies did in France and Germany before going to Jerusalem.

Not to mention after the spread of reformation the various European religious wars where sometimes even hole communities were wiped out of existence simply because of wrong religion.

 

[Zafran]

When medieval armies invaded, it usually involved a lot of mass scale raping, pillaging and indiscriminate killing, the first most notable examples that come to my mind being the fall of Constantinople and Jerusalem and the total slaughter of Carthago where it simply ceased to exist after its revolt. The slaughter of Latins by Byzantines, the slaughter of Cyprus by Ottomans.

Slaughtering jews wasn't exactly something Hitler invented, both muslims and christians have proud history of doing that during medieval times. Id suggest reading about Al-Andalus and Southern Spain, before and after Reconquista or what Crusader armies did in France and Germany before going to Jerusalem.

Not to mention after the spread of reformation the various European religious wars where sometimes even hole communities were wiped out of existence simply because of wrong religion.

Thats all great - i also believe you exageeratted the Al - Andlaus - there were periods of hostilty but the Jews were treaty relatively well in Mulsim lands oddly - this is even admitted by the Jewsih people themselves. Do you know where the Jews ran after the Reconquista? - the idea of mass pogroms were common in christain medieval europe thats well known. There was occasional distrust with other religions in muslim lands but only in certian periods.

Furthermore you also have non religous age which is the 21st century which has killed many people quickly and more faster then ever seen before. thanks to new innovative mass murdering weapons - Just in few decades 90 million (2 wars) were killed thanks to nationalism, Facism, communism and liberal democracy and there new toys - I'm sure we can add up the deaths the rapes, indiscrimante killing and pillaging too.

Just like to add there is no comparision with the recent wars and the wars of the past - the scale of mass murder now and in the modern period in general is unreal.

 

[Suomipoika]

Thats all great - i also believe you exageeratted the Al - Andlaus - there were periods of hostilty but the Jews were treaty relatively well in Mulsim lands oddly - this is even admitted by the Jewsih people themselves. Do you know where the Jews ran after the Reconquista? - the idea of mass pogroms were common in christain medieval europe thats well known. There was occasional distrust with other religions in muslim lands but only in certian periods.

I do know where many Jews ran after the Spanish Inquisition, however where Jews ran for their lives hardly changes the fact that during the Muslim rule in southern Spain there were slaughtering of Jews where sometimes quite large number of Jewish families were killed. That may be relatively well treatment compared to Christians, but Id hardly call that lack of mass action against civilians by the religious medieval people.

Furthermore you also have non religous age which is the 21st century which has killed many people quickly and more faster then ever seen before. thanks to new innovative mass murdering weapons - Just in few decades 90 million (2 wars) were killed thanks to nationalism, Facism, communism and liberal democracy and there new toys - I'm sure we can add up the deaths the rapes, indiscrimante killing and pillaging too.

Just like to add there is no comparision with the recent wars and the wars of the past - the scale of mass murder now and in the modern period in general is unreal.

Perhaps because there was not so much people back then than there is in modern period? When the medieval chivalry code honoring knights went to slaughter hole cities, they didn't stop because they were more kind and moral but because at 6 000 rather than at 6 000 000 they had ran out of people to kill. 90 million dead people in Medieval period would have meant very empty Europe.

But I'm not arguing that people or modern wars are in anyway better than when they were more guided by religion. I just wanted to point out the falsehood of this romantic notion that people were somehow better and less bloodthirsty than today when religion ruled the minds of people and kingdoms.

 

[Zafran]

[

QUOTE=Suomipoika;1162581]I do know where many Jews ran after the Spanish Inquisition, however where Jews ran for their lives hardly changes the fact that during the Muslim rule in southern Spain there were slaughtering of Jews where sometimes quite large number of Jewish families were killed. That may be relatively well treatment compared to Christians, but Id hardly call that lack of mass action against civilians by the religious medieval people.

I need example of this - the only thing i can think of is the Almiriovids - which is only a small part of Al Andlanus history - Al Andlaus is even used as dialogue between muslims, Jews and christains in europe. Jews even had an intellectual growth under the muslims. What ever it must have been nothing at a scale of pograms is europe.

Perhaps because there was not so much people back then than there is in modern period? When the medieval chivalry code honoring knights went to slaughter hole cities, they didn't stop because they were more kind and moral but because at 6 000 rather than at 6 000 000 they had ran out of people to kill. 90 million dead people in Medieval period would have meant very empty Europe.

True but the weapons today do far more damage then they ever did before and even the sort of weapons that are used in modern times in europe are far worser. The nazis, the british bombing of dresden and the communist invasion of Poland and Germnay was realy bad - indiscrimnate killings, concentration camps/ gas chambers - mass rape and pillaging with worse weapons.

But I'm not arguing that people or modern wars are in anyway better than when they were more guided by religion. I just wanted to point out the falsehood of this romantic notion that people were somehow better and less bloodthirsty than today when religion ruled the minds of people and kingdoms.

I would rater say that its people that actually create the problems expecailly when the morals are forgotton - furthermore there were good times in history under religion too it wasnt all "dark age" - nobody was painting a romantic pitcure just that religion isnt all bad atleast in certain times it wasnt - anything can be used for horror by humans however.