Is Europe's future Christian?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Uthman
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 56
  • Views Views 6K
Zafran said:
I need example of this - the only thing i can think of is the Almiriovids
Click to expand...

I don't really remember who ruled then, I just remember during the 11th (this might be wrong too) century there were massacres of various sizes in muslim controlled Spain.

I found this from the evil and false wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

No, the scale was nothing like in Christian Europe, and yes, at times they treated Jews better. I don't really see the relevance of these facts tho. The arguement wasn't which ones during Europe's history killed Jews more, Muslims or Christians but that they both did so and indiscriminately.

True but the weapons today do far more damage then they ever did before and even the sort of weapons that are used in modern times in europe are far worser. The nazis, the british bombing of dresden and the communist invasion of Poland and Germnay was realy bad - indiscrimnate killings, concentration camps/ gas chambers - mass rape and pillaging with worse weapons.
Click to expand...

Errr? How does better weaponry change the morality of the issue? How is bombarding city with a catapult morally different than bombarding it with a howitzer? How is the mass rape and pillaging with less worse weapons any more better? Besides the main weapon used in rape, mass or otherwise, hasn't really changed from medieval period.

As a side note I cannot think of a such widespread refrain from rape from large armies from Medieval period as the US and UK army conquering Germany in WW2.
 
It is also a fact that, in the world, religion has had and continues to have a greater influence amongst the uneducated and information deprived populations
Click to expand...

Not really, this is a theory the USSR developed and which has been demolished by the facts on the ground after the wall fell.
 
Slaughtering jews wasn't exactly something Hitler invented, both muslims and christians have proud history of doing that during medieval times.
Click to expand...

Invent whatever lies you want. Fact is that there are examples of Jews praying for Muslim victories in the pre-modern period, so you insinuation of any "pride" about killing of Jews is just slander.
 
Suomipoika said:
I don't really remember who ruled then, I just remember during the 11th (this might be wrong too) century there were massacres of various sizes in muslim controlled Spain.

I found this from the evil and false wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

No, the scale was nothing like in Christian Europe, and yes, at times they treated Jews better. I don't really see the relevance of these facts tho. The arguement wasn't which ones during Europe's history killed Jews more, Muslims or Christians but that they both did so and indiscriminately.
Click to expand...

ah yes good old Bernard Lewis - not realy sure about him anyway.





Errr? How does better weaponry change the morality of the issue? How is bombarding city with a catapult morally different than bombarding it with a howitzer? How is the mass rape and pillaging with less worse weapons any more better? Besides the main weapon used in rape, mass or otherwise, hasn't really changed from medieval period.

As a side note I cannot think of a such widespread refrain from rape from large armies from Medieval period as the US and UK army conquering Germany in WW2.
Click to expand...

well the US army did some horrible things in the Vietnam war - I'm sure we can get loads of example from refrain from rape - it didnt ahppen in every medieval war now did it - which would be realy hard to believe.

Furthermore the damage of a sword, a knife, axe even a bow or realy simple tools - even with a catapult - it was preety much fair game in the past.

Now you have a monoploy of airforce power, nuclear power, mechine guns navy.

I'll give you an example airforce of the US agaisnt the innocent Iraqis with no airforce - massive gap.


it was forbidden to use fire in the early Islamic conquests - today most weapons create fire especially when you take bombs inconsideration.- In reality the age we are living in doesnt realy have no moral grounds whats so ever - they even invented names like "collateral damge" to justify indiscrimnate killing - "friednly fire" to kill your own soldiers accidently atleast there wernt that many "friendly fires" in the past.

The past there was way more balance in warfare - a sword v a sword - today its just monoploy of a few powerhouses huge gap - this age has trangressed many limits that the prevous people wouldnt believe.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Pomak said:
Invent whatever lies you want. Fact is that there are examples of Jews praying for Muslim victories in the pre-modern period, so you insinuation of any "pride" about killing of Jews is just slander.
Click to expand...


salaam - this also true some Jews even prayed for Muslim victories as it was better then the previous regime.
 
Zafran said:
ah yes good old Bernard Lewis - not realy sure about him anyway.
Click to expand...

Attack the messenger, not the message? Well, there are plenty of other historians/authors listed there.

Furthermore the damage of a sword, a knife, axe even a bow or realy simple tools - even with a catapult - it was preety much fair game in the past.
Click to expand...

How is killing a child with a bomb from airplane worse than killing him with a catapult stone? How is that fair game?

this age has trangressed many limits that the prevous people wouldnt believe.
Click to expand...

I know, I can only wonder how the face of a medieval knight would look like when getting from his own side a life long prison sentence for raping and killing some peasant girl.

Pomak said:
Invent whatever lies you want. Fact is that there are examples of Jews praying for Muslim victories in the pre-modern period, so you insinuation of any "pride" about killing of Jews is just slander.
Click to expand...

With so much history, one doesn't really exclude the other.
 
Is Europe's future Christian?

in a nutshell NO!

it will be a battle between secularism and Islam!

:w:
 
Suomipoika said:
Attack the messenger, not the message? Well, there are plenty of other historians/authors listed there.
Click to expand...


Ok - i'll check there bias.


How is killing a child with a bomb from airplane worse than killing him with a catapult stone? How is that fair game?
Click to expand...

and airplane is far less accurate and kills more people and is used for that killing people - how many people can a catpult kill - they were actually used to destroy walls.

Fair game? a sword vs sword is fair game - is bombming any army that has no airforce fair game? or having nukes and threatning to use them on non nuclear states fair game? or a nation with a navy going agiant a nation with no navy? theres a huge gap now in the world it wasnt like that in the middle ages it was preety fair army vs army - now you have bombs vs humans. The gap is huge and unfair in battle.



I know, I can only wonder how the face of a medieval knight would look like when getting from his own side a life long prison sentence for raping and killing some peasant girl.
Click to expand...

many people have raped and killed and gotton away it just because we have no clue if they did it or not - even war crimianls that lie about going to war in the US have gotton away with war crimes.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Zafran said:
education is a broad term - its also a form of indoctrination of whatever system of education it may be eg - Islamic or communist or western or Facist - maybe destroying the schools is a reaction to western occupation and they see it as a negative indoctrination to the people and there pasthun culture.

Your post also seems like something Bush would say "they are against our freedoms" which is well known now that its not realy the case at all.
Click to expand...

Where did George Bush come into this?

Of course education can and is used as a form of indoctrination - I saw a news clip some time back of young children in Gaza being taught maths "if there were ten Israeli soldiers and three were killed by mujahadeen how many would be left?" And, I cringe at the thought of the curriculum set by the Taliban.

I was careful to include together with education "access to uncensored information and are free to think."

Students in China are being educated but from what I see on the news they do not have full access to uncensored information and are not free to discuss what they think.

As long as people have access to uncensored news and are free to discuss their beliefs and ideas and have been received sufficiently education to do that, sense will prevail and we will reach a consensus.
 
I doubt Europe will become anymore Christian than it is, unless the RCC organized some sort of spiritual thing for it, which I doubt it will do.
 
Of course education can and is used as a form of indoctrination - I saw a news clip some time back of young children in Gaza being taught maths "if there were ten Israeli soldiers and three were killed by mujahadeen how many would be left?" And, I cringe at the thought of the curriculum set by the Taliban.
Click to expand...

Let me guess you saw that on sky news:rollseyes or one of the mainstream media channels where they dont show you both sides of the stories right?
Is that uncensored and objective news or a form of indoctirination in its own right?


As long as people have access to uncensored news and are free to discuss their beliefs and ideas and have been received sufficiently education to do that, sense will prevail and we will reach a consensus.
Click to expand...

No the first thing they have to learn is solid morals so they dont use things to harm people for no reason and establish what they want in life. You just gave me a stroy which i can easily guess is not from "uncensored news" yet you believe its going to solve the problem in the other side of the world??

discussing different beliefs and ideas isnt going to solve anything - it may even divide the people never mind forming a consensus which is another indoctrinating tool - most of the time people conform to the majoirty culture anyway.
 
Thinker said:
Where did George Bush come into this?

Of course education can and is used as a form of indoctrination - I saw a news clip some time back of young children in Gaza being taught maths "if there were ten Israeli soldiers and three were killed by mujahadeen how many would be left?" And, I cringe at the thought of the curriculum set by the Taliban.

I was careful to include together with education "access to uncensored information and are free to think."

Students in China are being educated but from what I see on the news they do not have full access to uncensored information and are not free to discuss what they think.

As long as people have access to uncensored news and are free to discuss their beliefs and ideas and have been received sufficiently education to do that, sense will prevail and we will reach a consensus.
Click to expand...


People in the west have all kinds of free access to all sorts of information, yet the majority would rather yield in to what the repuke con news forcibly indoctrinates them into believing, they have more books, but the books go unread.. I think some of the most ignorant people I have encountered were the westerners who have never taken a trip outside their zone...

If someone had a desire to be a free thinker they'd do so in spite of their circumstance, I rather hazard ask why, with all the resources available to westerners they still lag behind in so many ways, moral, social, political...

when folks don't have enough resources, you feel sorry for them and you try to establish whatever means to help them get their hands on what they need, however, when everything is available, what then remains an excuse, for hatred, insolence, ignorance and indoctrination.

I attended junior high school here, high school, undergraduate and graduate school, the students who did consistently well, were the foreign kids, whether oriental, middle eastern or Indian, it wasn't the guy from Alabama or the gal from queens NY.

I think rather than focusing on the curriculum of the taliban (if one in fact exists) it is better to focus on the home front.. the west has been whittling itself away trying to reform the world to what it deems appropriate and has been rather neglectful to its.. the decadent happy few westerners are a handful in comparison and I hazard ask how many if at all after one too many ponzi schemes.. pls come take a look at inner city kids in NY or any other U.S city, and judge better whether that money needs to be spend on wars and foreign reformation or educating some of these gangsters and future snipers, to whom the money of hard working individuals gets funneled whether to foster their life in prison, or life outside of prison.

all the best
 
I think that Europe A.D 2050 will look very close to nowadays Israel. Similar big minorities, militarization of the streets and cities, leaving behind the democratic standards, religious and national radicalism on both sides, ongoing fear and feeling of danger.
 
Last edited:
Amadeus85 said:
I think that Europe A.D 2050 will look very close to nowadays Israel. Similar big minorities, militarization of the streets and cities, leaving behind the democratic standards, religious and national radicalism on both sides, ongoing fear and feeling of danger.
Click to expand...

You mean Palestine right? - If its going to be anything like that region then dont worry Isreal has the tanks, war heads and missles and also has the abilty to control resources comming in and out of the area.

So the majority will still rule even if it means by militery - furthermore you gave a bad analogy about palestine and Isreal - as the whole region has had a unstable history starting from the British conquest after the defeat of the Ottomans ironically - very different then europe even being remotely like it.

Your also forgetting one very simple thing that the most secularised muslim country in the world is also close to europe - Turkey.
 
Last edited:
Zafran said:
discussing different beliefs and ideas isnt going to solve anything
Click to expand...

I have just watched two TV programmes (Aljazeera and Panorama) on Iran. It is illegal for Iranians to have satellite TV yet at least 30% of the population break the law to get access to international news, the state TV did not broadcast ‘Obama’s message to the Muslim World’ and the state has ‘filters’ on the internet. This is an example of the point I have tried to make, the state fears the possibility of the people having access to all the information on which they might decide who/what is right and who/what is wrong. How can anyone give a good reasoned argument supporting such censorship?
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top