Is god above the laws he creates? Paradox

[Kyubi]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

 

[Umar001]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

From what I understand of your post your saying that Allah has allowed shaytan to cause strige and torment upon us on the whims of a request.
You call such happening the end of reason and logic of faith, rather, maybe your logic ended but sound logic remains.

If I place a test, and throw some red herrings in a test does that mean that the person taking the test is to be doomed? No, rather if he tries and studies, if he asks me for help then I will help him to revise and thus he can know the red herrings in the test. Thus he is not doomed, rather it is upto his choice to ask for help and to study, if he does this then all is well. If he is too arrogant to ask then he will fail.

And to Allah is the best of examples.

 

[NoName55]

^^:bravo:

 

[Woodrow]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

Interesting thought. I believe that some of us have had that same thought at one time. I know I have had. I can only speak for myself in answering. First to do so I realized I only have very little knowledge of the nature of Allah(swt) But some of what I know is the He is all Powerful and all Just. I also know he is all merciful and all fair to all of His Creation. I also know that there are matters in this universe that really are not of my concern and I have no power over. My final conclusion was "Why should I even have any concern over this?"

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

You know Allah(swt) has also made one of my favorite fruits, Prickly pear cactus. They are delicious and I can not get enough or them. Yet, He covered this delicious fruit with some very vicious spines. I also ge myself pretty well stuck when I gather it. But, you know what I do not curse the spines I give thanks for the fruit. I also used to be a bee hunter and gather wild honey in the woods. I always got stung. But, that honey was well worth the stings. Life is life. There are thorns and stings, they are not pleasant. But, the overall picture needs to be looked at not just any single aspect. i do not see where Allah(swt) created these things to torment us, I see them as a challenge to what are the real values in this world. What is the real fruit we need to find? I look at the joy of freedom of choice and because of the ever presence of shaytan, I know what other choices I have, I know what I can choose and pleasures and my way of life. I know I am not a blind robot that has no option to obey. Because of shaytan, I know that my love for AllaH(SWT) has to be genuine, because I know I have other paths I could follow if I so desired.

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

Odd. I look at it as Allah(swt) showing us love and giving us all of the tools we need to keep it from being a competition, but rather giving us absolute freedom to know what is available, understand the consequences and make our own choices. It is as if he has given us a raod map of the universe and we are free to travel upon it. Since it is a map we are the travelers and while the map will show us the location of all the destinations, it is up to us to select the destination we want and then stay on the best path to get to our desired destination.

 

[AbuAbdallah]

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

What is the purpose of life? "And I have not created the jinns and humans except that they worship me"
The purpose is to worship God all of our lives, the test is when we face trials and when the Shaytan tries to take us off of the straight path.

brushed off the jinn as a failed race

This statement is incorrect, there are kaafir jin and muslim jin.

 

[Kyubi]

If I place a test, and throw some red herrings in a test does that mean that the person taking the test is to be doomed? No, rather if he tries and studies, if he asks me for help then I will help him to revise and thus he can know the red herrings in the test. Thus he is not doomed, rather it is upto his choice to ask for help and to study, if he does this then all is well. If he is too arrogant to ask then he will fail.

Except this isn't some test where all you have to lose is a bad score and a flunking grade this is life this is existence. If someone can just "throw red herrings" in the way of people's very life's as if there existence is a contrived and insignificant, meaningless other then to suffer and please some higher being in knowledge that he succeeded in creating a race in his own image. It doesn't make sense how people can throw away each other's value, the value of there life the value of there own brothers and sisters there mother and father the people they cherish into a fire for some zeal or doctrine that may or may not be true. And please don't answer with "only through god can we find value" perplexing questions isn't the same as answering them.

With all do respect that creeps me out and in no way am I insulting anything it is the very truth of the matter its why I have to some degree lost my faith in Islam and in religion in general. How the creator can just treat us mankind or Jinn as if were sheep insignificant like meaningless insects. If a creator is that devoid of love and compassion for to ever see something from our point of view from our circumstance what our choices are and how we feel is beyond him.

Interesting thought. I believe that some of us have had that same thought at one time. I know I have had. I can only speak for myself in answering. First to do so I realized I only have very little knowledge of the nature of Allah(swt) But some of what I know is the He is all Powerful and all Just. I also know he is all merciful and all fair to all of His Creation. I also know that there are matters in this universe that really are not of my concern and I have no power over. My final conclusion was "Why should I even have any concern over this?"

Why shouldn't we? If the Jinn can be so easily brushed aside by a creator who claims to be all loving to all his creations and not considering how the Jinn might feel about becoming a byproduct of man then we to can easily one day be brushed away and find out that all of our sacrifices were meaningless. Consider why would Shaytan "rebel" against Allah was he that stupid? Did he throw away everything he had achieved just because of his pride, I don’t think that’s it, I think he realized just how pointless it was to continue devoid worship without love. See it from his perspective he and his race just suffered divine retribution, granted it was due to there own misdeeds much like us but to make things worse he and his race now were brushed aside by the creator they did so rever who now considers them nothing but a failure and if that wasn't enough now he's forced to bow and prostrate himself and devalue the very meaning of his existence. His reaction must have been more emotional when shaytan said he was better maybe he way trying to desperately hold on to what value was left in him. It could be he was heartbroken in the fire of the situation. Can a Jinn be heartbroken? I know what you would say why should we care but at the least it means something to me.

The simple question if god had ordered you to behead your own son or brother or mother the people you love and cherish like he did so command Abraham? This is an important question for me as its why I lost my faith and the answer for me is a dead No!

 

[Umar001]

Kyubi, english is not my mother tongue, please try and construct your points clearly for me.

Except this isn't some test where all you have to lose is a bad score and a flunking grade this is life this is existence. If someone can just "throw red herrings" in the way of people's very life's as if there existence is a contrived and insignificant, meaningless other then to suffer and please some higher being in knowledge that he succeeded in creating a race in his own image.

This is where your seemingly confused. I don't even know where to beging.

It doesn't seem like you make a point to be answered or a point which entails discussion, 'as if there existance is a contrived and insignificant, meaningless other then to suffer and please some higher being..' It seems that you have yourself come to this conclusion. So I don't see where the discussion can go.

I will say that, there are tests, and that there is help to pass those tests, and it is simple, you don't seem to take the teachings of the Qu'ran. You have a presumption that is not established.

We want to discuss this God, well let us see what He is like,

We know that

Allah bears no burden more than it can bare.

We also know that if a person keeps patient then Allah will make ways for him out of places he didnt even think of.

We know that Allah guides those who want to be guided,

That He responds to prayers,

That He multiplies the right answers/good deeds of the people and gives them good deeds if they were gonna do something bad but didnt.​

Furthermore, your logic is not that great, let us think of it this way, God gives us tools, then he lets us use them and then gives us rewards for what good we do. So we are being paid while in reality we had no right to be paid. That is Mercy.

It doesn't make sense how people can throw away each other's value, the value of there life the value of there own brothers and sisters there mother and father the people they cherish into a fire for some zeal or doctrine that may or may not be true. And please don't answer with "only through god can we find value" perplexing questions isn't the same as answering them.

Let me ask you then, what is value, how can we define value, the value of something?

With all do respect that creeps me out and in no way am I insulting anything it is the very truth of the matter its why I have to some degree lost my faith in Islam and in religion in general. How the creator can just treat us mankind or Jinn as if were sheep insignificant like meaningless insects. If a creator is that devoid of love and compassion for to ever see something from our point of view from our circumstance what our choices are and how we feel is beyond him.

The above like most this seems like its in codes. I don't know what logic your using but it is shameballs. We have a Creator, He gives us our memory and then rewards us for memorising Qu'ran, He gives us money and then rewards us for giving charity, He gives us our minds and then rewards us for using it, He gives us our families and the rewards us for being kind to them and respecting them. And that is not Mercy? He rejoices at our repentance and listens to our prayers, being closer to us then our veins, yet this is not the care of someone?

The list could go on and on. If you have problems with the description of God in other places then thats that, but if you specifically want to discuss the description of God in Islam and say He is unfair then I will have to disagree.

Regards,

Eesa.

 

[Talha777]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

Good evening, Mr. Kyubi,

I will humbly attempt to answer your question.

First of all, Allah Tala is All-Knowing, He knows our actions and even the thoughts within our mind. He knows what has happened in the past and what will happen in the future. Allah Tala created Iblis knowing full well he will try to lead mankind astray. In fact, all of this is the plan of Allah. You should read the Holy Quran and understand the theme and message of Islam. This following verse is very important:

وَلاَ يَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ أَنَّمَا نُمْلِي لَهُمْ خَيْرٌ لِّأَنفُسِهِمْ إِنَّمَا نُمْلِي لَهُمْ لِيَزْدَادُواْ إِثْمًا وَلَهْمُ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ

Let not the Unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment. [Quran 3:178]

So the granting of respite to the disbelievers, including Satan, is part of the plan of Allah. This is so that when Allah descends His wrath upon the disbelievers, it has a great inspiration effect for the Believers who can take an important object lesson and also be assured that no matter how high man can go in life, ultimately, Allah can shatter all of our accomplishment and utterly destroy us. This is to show us that we should never be proud of ourselves in what we have accomplished. We should constantly be grateful to Allah and be humble before Him. We should attribute all of our blessings to Allah alone, He alone is our King, and He alone is worthy of our worship.

We human beings are not Angels. Unlike them, we have free will. This means that we have the freedom to obey or disobey Allah. So if we obey Him, than we are definitely deserving of a reward and higher rank than Angels (Which is why Allah commanded them to prostrate before Adam (alaihi salam)). Similarly, if we disobey Allah, it is because Satan has tempted us (not compelled us), and therefore we are deserving of punishment.

The simple question if god had ordered you to behead your own son or brother or mother the people you love and cherish like he did so command Abraham? This is an important question for me as its why I lost my faith and the answer for me is a dead No!

A true Believer is willing to sacrifice the lives of his children and other loved ones, including his own life, for the sake of Allah. Allah Tala commanded Hazrat Nabi Ibrahim (alaihi salam) to sacrifice his first son for the sake for Allah. Hazrat Nabi Ibrahim (alaihi salam) was a man of exceptional piety and possessed an exalted status among mankind. Being a man of firm faith and conviction in Allah, he put his trust in the Almighty and did not even question his Master. He unhesitatingly was willing to sacrifice his only son. This is an object lesson to all. We should all strive to have the faith of Hazrat Nabi Ibrahim (alaihi salam) and be willing to sacrifice anything and everything, including our very own lives, for His sake and His cause.

 

[Alexius]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a Jinn? I've been studying Islam for a longtime, but I still don't know what a Jinn is...

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:-[

 

[Kyubi]

It doesn't seem like you make a point to be answered or a point which entails discussion, 'as if there existance is a contrived and insignificant, meaningless other then to suffer and please some higher being..' It seems that you have yourself come to this conclusion. So I don't see where the discussion can go.

Religion is very much the same way. Its impossible to have discussion with Zeal or Doctrine.

We know that

Allah bears no burden more than it can bare.

We also know that if a person keeps patient then Allah will make ways for him out of places he didnt even think of.

We know that Allah guides those who want to be guided,

That He responds to prayers,

That He multiplies the right answers/good deeds of the people and gives them good deeds if they were gonna do something bad but didnt.

You know? Or you believe. It seems here you already have a set belief of god I however have come to realize and question the character of God in his persona; Christianity, Islam, Jewduism.

Let me ask you then, what is value, how can we define value, the value of something?

Value to me is the people I cherish the people who I love and hold dear, thats value. Its seeing the smiles of my brothers there laughter there happiness, its the friendship that I share with others. The connection we have knowing that togther we would go through whatever struggle comes our way. That is what value is and its these people that I would sacrifice my very life to protect.

The above like most this seems like its in codes.

Is it? The bible, the quran the testiment they all seem to be in codes as well

We have a Creator, He gives us our memory and then rewards us for memorising Qu'ran, He gives us money and then rewards us etc etc

And to that we hold him as a creator, I did not say he is false, he's very much true. True to himself and to his ambition, but to us? Ive given you the account of what happened and to your religion its held true to the facts and history so what is there then that should contend, its sound judgment. God created Jinn, God Discards Jinn, God creates Man, God breaks his law of worshiping only Allah and commands Shaytan to prostrate to the father of man,God casts out Jinn; Man and Jinn are left to bear the brunt of Gods tantrum.

 

[Kyubi]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a Jinn?

It’s a discarded being. A creation left Roth and snuffed of whatever value they possessed. In essence they are Devils but not in the way they are in Christianity. In Islam these "Devils" are an outcast race of creatures made of fire and other elements.

 

[Zone Maker]

It’s a discarded being. A creation left Roth and snuffed of whatever value they possessed. In essence they are Devils but not in the way they are in Christianity. In Islam these "Devils" are an outcast race of creatures made of fire and other elements.

Shows how little you know about Islam

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/36455-jinn.html

 

[Kyubi]

Shows how little you know about Islam

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...6455-jinn.html

What a good refuter you are for pointing that out, especially since the thread you linked to us pretty much reflects what I have described thus far:

And the Jinn He did create of a smokeless flame of fire
There is no doubt that the Jinn were created before mankind
This verse clearly states that the Jinn were created before mankind
If one is mentioning the evil ones that antagonise humans they are called Shaitan etc etc...

Alexius would you like more information in detail? Whatever the case always remember draw your own conclusion believe in god but most of all believe in yourself

 

[AbuAbdallah]

"It’s a discarded being. A creation left Roth and snuffed of whatever value they possessed. In essence they are Devils but not in the way they are in Christianity. In Islam these "Devils" are an outcast race of creatures made of fire and other elements."

Jinns are beings made from fire. They are unseen to humans. Some are Muslim while others are kaafirs. They speak different languages. Some will go to heaven some will go to hell.

 

[Kyubi]

Jinns are beings made from fire. They are unseen to humans. Some are Muslim while others are kaafirs. They speak different languages. Some will go to heaven some will go to hell.

pretty much reflects what I have described thus far

But of course I can understand that you would miss the point, its not hard for you to just label them in what is a constrained doctrine. Jinn are more then just the monsters or demons religion tends to paint them as. So its sad because Jinn are either "evil demons" or creatures to "marry" to most deluded people.

 

[snakelegs]

And so ends reason and the logic of faith.

faith requires no logic.

 

[Kyubi]

No not even faith can escape logic,

Everything needs logic, its fundamental. If something is to be then its logic is to be. Faith isn't completely blind.

 

[shible]

No not even faith can escape logic,

Everything needs logic, its fundamental. If something is to be then its logic is to be. Faith isn't completely blind.

yes i agree the part that everything needs a logic.

but have you ever had any idea where this sense of reasoning came to you.

do u have a logic to explain your sense of reasoning.

do u think that those who did great research in Islam not even had a slightest idea or not even had a thought like what you had. if there were just one or two people then i would claim you are right for some extent.

But you know for about 1000 years there where many researchers who tried to prove the thought that what Islam say's is incorrect

But do you know what happened indeed they all realized that they were only experiencing the Darkness in this world and also submitted that Islam is the Light and the Only cure.

Haven't you noticed it.

If the question was to discover Islam then i am sure that your heart and Brain can realize the true answers.

If the question was just to Provoke or Drag Islam then i am sorry My friend not even the Best evidence in the world can clear your Doubts

But instead it would be the wish of our Creator to decide your Fate

It's not like that but instead they

 

[AbuAbdallah]

But of course I can understand that you would miss the point, its not hard for you to just label them in what is a constrained doctrine. Jinn are more then just the monsters or demons religion tends to paint them as. So its sad because Jinn are either "evil demons" or creatures to "marry" to most deluded people.

What is your point? Are you upset that Allah created some jinn as evil beings?

 

[Kyubi]

do u have a logic to explain your sense of reasoning.

I already have in ABC fashion look at what ive said thus far and then contemplate, already then you would be using reason.

do u think that those who did great research in Islam not even had a slightest idea or not even had a thought like what you had. if there were just one or two people then i would claim you are right for some extent.

But you know for about 1000 years there where many researchers who tried to prove the thought that what Islam say's is incorrect

Your getting out of context, is your question; Can man go through a thousand years of blindness?

But do you know what happened indeed they all realized that they were only experiencing the Darkness in this world and also submitted that Islam is the Light and the Only cure.

Must you drag me in this debate

Are you talking about conversion? I acknowledge it is a natural phenomenon of religion. Any one can see the "light" that’s the purpose of doctrine.

What is your point? Are you upset that Allah created some jinn as evil beings?

Maybe you should instead look at the first page it will elaborate on the discussion.

But instead it would be the wish of our Creator to decide your Fate

I am indeed frightened. And that was not sarcasm but more reason to logic. You can’t force love or submission through fear only drive it away and bring loath instead.