Is god above the laws he creates? Paradox

[snakelegs]

No not even faith can escape logic,

Everything needs logic, its fundamental. If something is to be then its logic is to be. Faith isn't completely blind.

belief requires no logic - it's belief and it is a completely different system than logic.

 

[shible]

I am sorry for not responding at the earliest.

well I was a bit rude on my previous words.

yet i can help anyone who would wish to have an answer for a question at Primary level.

In case if it goes in depth then i am not the right guy since i am still exploring Islam.

You may contact the Appropriate master's in this or you could also browse through a few Lectures and debates of Dr. Zakir Naik or Sheikh Ahmed Hussein Deedat.

since they have discussed many issues in Public before thousands of people.

I am sure you will get your answers

 

[Zone Maker]

What a good refuter you are for pointing that out, especially since the thread you linked to us pretty much reflects what I have described thus far:

Show an evidence to back up your claim that jinns are an outcast race.

PS: Stop generalizing when we talk about bad jinns.

 

[Muezzin]

Kinda just sounds like angsty whining to me, to be honest. Like: 'Wah wah, there is evil and it makes my life hard'.

As Rocky Balboa said 'It ain't about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward'

'ADRIAN!'

 

[AbuAbdallah]

Maybe you should instead look at the first page it will elaborate on the discussion.

Why shouldn't we? If the Jinn can be so easily brushed aside by a creator who claims to be all loving to all his creations and not considering how the Jinn might feel about becoming a byproduct of man then we to can easily one day be brushed away and find out that all of our sacrifices were meaningless

Your complaint was that Jinn were brushed aside, and you were already proved wrong...so what are you trying to prove here exactly???

 

[Umar001]

Religion is very much the same way. Its impossible to have discussion with Zeal or Doctrine.

Well whatever else is the same does not matter, if you cannot discuss then thats cool, no matter if every other guy is the same as that.

You know? Or you believe. It seems here you already have a set belief of god I however have come to realize and question the character of God in his persona; Christianity, Islam, Jewduism.

Your confused again, I was presenting the concept of God in Islam, so according to Islamic belief, we know the above Characteristics. Whether the Islamic belief is true is a different matter. So please try to keep up, similarly, according to the Christian belief we know that God has a Son.

Did I say the belief is true? No. Rather let me repeat myself for you:

If you have problems with the description of God in other places then thats that, but if you specifically want to discuss the description of God in Islam and say He is unfair then I will have to disagree.

Regards,

Eesa.

Value to me is the people I cherish the people who I love and hold dear, thats value. Its seeing the smiles of my brothers there laughter there happiness, its the friendship that I share with others. The connection we have knowing that togther we would go through whatever struggle comes our way. That is what value is and its these people that I would sacrifice my very life to protect.

Why do you cherish and hold those people dear?

Is it? The bible, the quran the testiment they all seem to be in codes as well

Well if you feel they are in codes then how could you understand them or what they claim G-d to be, or do you just not. If you'd like an help decoding them please ask

And to that we hold him as a creator, I did not say he is false, he's very much true. True to himself and to his ambition, but to us? Ive given you the account of what happened and to your religion its held true to the facts and history so what is there then that should contend, its sound judgment. God created Jinn, God Discards Jinn, God creates Man, God breaks his law of worshiping only Allah and commands Shaytan to prostrate to the father of man,God casts out Jinn; Man and Jinn are left to bear the brunt of Gods tantrum.

Well your mistaken. For example, you claim God discards Jinn. Provide evidence, the Qu'ran speaks differently,

72:01
SHAKIR: Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,
72:02
SHAKIR: Guiding to the right way, so we believe in it, and we will not set up any one with our Lord:​

And

72:13
SHAKIR: And that when we heard the guidance, we believed in it; so whoever believes in his Lord, he should neither fear loss nor being overtaken (by disgrace):
72:14
SHAKIR: And that some of us are those who submit, and some of us are the deviators; so whoever submits, these aim at the right way:​

With regards to G-d breaking His law, then you certainly have no knowledge, you see, postration as a sign of respect was allowed.

Furthermore, it is upto mankind to follow the guidance, if they do that then they will have peace in this world and peace in the hereafter. Many feel much more joy in this world than pain, and furthermore the people that feel pain are going to have such joy that they will not regard the pain as anything!!

{The most miserable man in the world of those meant for Paradise will be dipped once in Paradise. Then he will be asked, “Son of Adam, did you ever face any misery? Did you ever experience any hardship?” So he will say, “No, by God, O Lord! I never faced any misery, and I never experienced any hardship.”} Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2807​

Anyhow the topic is more than amazing, seems like you have a personal grudge and want to take it out on God.

 

[NoName55]

belief requires no logic - it's belief and it is a completely different system than logic.

If you mean in matters pertaining to Islaam, then I beg to differ. Without logic it will be blind faith that would lead to blind taqleed, and taqleedy I can never be!

 

[snakelegs]

If you mean in matters pertaining to Islaam, then I beg to differ. Without logic it will be blind faith that would lead to blind taqleed, and taqleedy I can never be!

i understand what you are saying, but as a person of no religion, i view all religions as belief systems which may or may not be true.
once you adopt the islamic beliefs, (which are true for you), then it is quite possible to use your intellect and logic in the pursuit of better and deeper understanding the religion - and here is where taqleed would be frowned upon. one of the things i like about islam, is that it encourages learning.

 

[Allah-creation]

you say you cherish your family and friends, yet you are not greatful to god for creating them.

 

[Kyubi]

First lets get all the flame baiting out of the way;

Kinda just sounds like angsty whining to me, to blah blah etc etc...

There's no need to throw around insults, I can just as easily as yourself bicker and say "All of you muslims sound like 15 year old high school girls going through there period, calm down! Gosh!" But that would do nothing but make me look like an idiot I just hope you would follow suit if your going to take in this discussion.

Now on to more reputable members.

Show an evidence to back up your claim that jinns are an outcast race.

The knowledge of jinns is orthodox, as they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

Iam sorry I thought you were a Muslim. Well In any case you can look in the Quran find out for yourself or ask around everyone here knows the fundamental story of Jinn and their contrived place in the universe.
The knowledge of jinn’s is orthodox, they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

In Surah Al-Araf: it has been expressly stated that man was created out of clay and jinn out of fire.

In Surah Al Hijr: 27, it has been said that the jinn had been created before man. The same thing is testified by the story of Adam and Iblis, which has been told at seven different places in the Qur'an, and at every place it confirms that Iblis was already there at the creation of man. Moreover, in surah Al-Kahf: 50, it has been stated that Iblis belonged to the jinn.

Al-Baqarah: 50 show that Allah has entrusted man with the vicegerency (spelling?) of the earth and that God has decreed man was superior to the jinn. Although the jinn also have been given certain extraordinary powers and abilities an example of which is found in An-Naml 39, yet the animals likewise have been given some powers greater than man.


From these details, it becomes abundantly clear that the jinn have their own objective existence and are a concealed creation of an entirely different species from man. And because of their mysterious qualities, ignorant people have formed exaggerated notions and concepts about them. Such as possession. So no iam afraid man's insanity is his own.

Your confused again, I was presenting the concept of God in Islam, so according to Islamic belief, we know the above Characteristics. Whether the Islamic belief is true is a different matter. So please try to keep up, similarly, according to the Christian belief we know that God has a Son.

Did I say the belief is true? No. Rather let me repeat myself for you:

Sorry but I think your confused, I said God's persona, not what his context is in each religion. And again no you don't know, you believe. Whether islam is true or not is irralavent in this case. Its a question of faith, what is faith. Figure out what your talking about and Contemplate that.

Why do you cherish and hold those people dear?

While its understandable that such things are beyond you people, I have hope. Read again

Well if you feel they are in codes then how could you understand them or what they claim G-d to be, or do you just not. If you'd like an help decoding them please ask

Iam quiet fine, thank you though.

Many feel much more joy in this world than pain, and furthermore the people that feel pain are going to have such joy that they will not regard the pain as anything!!

Everyone feels pain and everyone suffers one loss or onther. We are all stricken with a grief that pierces our hearts like an infliction. Its this world that was created for us, its our punishment for such a petty crime as taking a fruit. God may not have wanted us to remain in paradise as was said God is Omniscience and placed the forbidden fruit not to tempt us but to convict us of the so called crime he knew would happen. But in this life at least there are family and friends those people you love, try as we like we can never be free of the pain but the people you cherish can sometimes take some of that anguish away.

With regards to G-d breaking His law, then you certainly have no knowledge, you see, postration as a sign of respect was allowed.

By whose creed? Yours. Don't be foolish; excuses can be made for just about everything especially religion. That’s why this stigma is held on long as it has. Every time there's a challenge religion will simply opt for the thousand different possible answers there are. Example; how can it be Monotheism if you believe Jesus was the Son of God? The answer: "Because Jesus is God2!" :mmokay:

So then now Shaitan is forced to show respect, you cant force respect even if he did neel it will be nothing more then a mummers farse. God should have known that.

Anyhow the topic is more than amazing, seems like you have a personal grudge and want to take it out on God.

Iam not going to even answer that.

you say you cherish your family and friends, yet you are not greatful to god for creating them.

Who said I wasn't grateful.

 

[Allah-creation]

Hatered and disapprovel of god's actions is your way of being greatful. You seem to feel sorrow for jinns, than you must know that the muslims among jinn will enter paradise.

 

[Umar001]

The knowledge of jinns is orthodox, as they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

So Jinns are another creation who have also the ability to believe in God and be good or bad and have been craeted to worship God just like humans, according to Islam.

Sorry but I think your confused, I said God's persona, not what his context is in each religion. And again no you don't know, you believe. Whether islam is true or not is irralavent in this case. Its a question of faith, what is faith. Figure out what your talking about and Contemplate that.

Lets look at this, we are discussing God's persona, different religions say God is different in some ways. So I said let us look at the Islamic view of God, so then I said we know in islamic belief God is such and such.. whether God is really like that is not the dicussion but rather we are just using the Islamic view of God.

While its understandable that such things are beyond you people, I have hope. Read again

Break it down to me! since it is understandable that such a thing is beyond my people then I dont think its worth reading again, just explain it to me.

By whose creed? Yours. Don't be foolish; excuses can be made for just about everything especially religion. That’s why this stigma is held on long as it has. Every time there's a challenge religion will simply opt for the thousand different possible answers there are. Example; how can it be Monotheism if you believe Jesus was the Son of God? The answer: "Because Jesus is God2!" :mmokay:

Your not being logical, you see, how do I derive at the opinion that postrating is not an act of worship, why dont you ask me that instead of just saying it is my creed?

You can throw a smokescreen by saying 'Everytime there's a challange religion will simply opt for the thousand different..' or you can be objective and see for yourself if such a view is possible to be held.

If a christian told me Jesus is God i'd say show me that in the Bible. I hope that's not an ability you lack.

 

[Zone Maker]

The knowledge of jinns is orthodox, as they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

Iam sorry I thought you were a Muslim. Well In any case you can look in the Quran find out for yourself or ask around everyone here knows the fundamental story of Jinn and their contrived place in the universe.
The knowledge of jinn’s is orthodox, they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

In Surah Al-Araf: it has been expressly stated that man was created out of clay and jinn out of fire.

In Surah Al Hijr: 27, it has been said that the jinn had been created before man. The same thing is testified by the story of Adam and Iblis, which has been told at seven different places in the Qur'an, and at every place it confirms that Iblis was already there at the creation of man. Moreover, in surah Al-Kahf: 50, it has been stated that Iblis belonged to the jinn.

Believe it or not I am a Muslim.

It seems you are the one who is confused.
The jinn were created before man so what????????????
Did you know that Hitler belonged to the human race?When Iblis is a sinner and an outcast you made the whole jinn race the same thing what kind of logic are you using here.
Why don’t you use the same logic on human stories mentioned on Quran.

Al-Baqarah: 50 show that Allah has entrusted man with the vicegerency (spelling?) of the earth and that God has decreed man was superior to the jinn. Although the jinn also have been given certain extraordinary powers and abilities an example of which is found in An-Naml 39, yet the animals likewise have been given some powers greater than man.

The first is superior which makes the others automatically an outcast. Why don’t you have some pity on angels too?
So you see things only in black and white.

From these details, it becomes abundantly clear that the jinn have their own objective existence and are a concealed creation of an entirely different species from man. And because of their mysterious qualities, ignorant people have formed exaggerated notions and concepts about them. Such as possession. So no iam afraid man's insanity is his own.

So let's see the conclusion is: being different from humans, having special powers and because one bad jinn of the whole race disobeyed Allah the race is now an outcast.
Oh boy it seems I have to study formal logic again.
Do you really think you have proved your point?
And please try to answer the verses mentioned by Al-Habeshi.

 

[Kyubi]

Hatered and disapprovel of god's actions is your way of being greatful. You seem to feel sorrow for jinns, than you must know that the muslims among jinn will enter paradise.

What Hatred? Disapproval maybe. Grateful for this world for the pain the strife the misery we will have to endure for the enjoyment of the heavens, yes Iam certainty grateful. But I wish for more, I know there is better then this.

Realize whether he (God) set out to create the universe as a "testing" ground for who will enter heaven or not has become irrelevant. This world has become more then that, we have become more then what we were from initial creation. We have a free will- and if you use static logic you will realize that with free will comes Change. When we developed the love and compassion for the ones we cherish is when we broke free of the shell that bound us to his (god) purpose. We are the arbiters of our own destiny and this is now our world and our lives, the reins of fate belong to us.

The fact that there are people like me who would leave the flock of sheep in search of there own purpose is a testament to mans superior free will and why we deserve to be a free race and why we do not belong bound to the heavens.

So Jinns are another creation who have also the ability to believe in God and be good or bad and have been craeted to worship God just like humans, according to Islam.

And like the few I to believe in Allah and worshiped God. We worship god because we fear him, and the sad fact is the only reason any man worships Allah is because we fear him or fear worse.

Lets look at this, we are discussing God's persona, different religions say God is different in some ways. So I said let us look at the Islamic view of God, so then I said we know in islamic belief God is such and such.. whether God is really like that is not the dicussion but rather we are just using the Islamic view of God.

And which is irrelevant again to the point in case I was simply mentioning to you that you believed not knew.

Your not being logical, you see, how do I derive at the opinion that postrating is not an act of worship, why dont you ask me that instead of just saying it is my creed?

I did, and I can do without the "your confused, you not being logical, your a homosapian etc etc"

You can throw a smokescreen by saying 'Everytime there's a challange religion will simply opt for the thousand different..' or you can be objective and see for yourself if such a view is possible to be held.

It wasn't a smokescreen but in fact the "Objective" point in the case. Was your answer that "prostrating is a sign of respect" a "smokescreen"? Do you know this for certain have you learned or read somewhere where I can see this for myself?

a christian told me Jesus is God i'd say show me that in the Bible. I hope that's not an ability you lack.

I have plenty of times, but the question is often dodged for what I have already mentioned the thousand different possible answers or excuses.

The fact of the matter is the question in the first post is yet unanswered.

 

[Allah-creation]

Kyubi, you remind me of Iblis. You believe there is no god but Allah, but you disapprove his action. God's action are sometiems beyond our reasoning, those who challenge it are among the ignorant, like Iblis. Yes, there are hardship in this world, but can you live without air, food, water. I believe the blessing exceeds the hardships.

 

[Kyubi]

Because I disapprove of Allah's action I am like Azazeel, nonsense if it was I in Iblis's position I would have just simply Kneeled to Adam and pleased god rather then be righteous and not commit to sin. Because that’s what’s more important isn't it, pleasing god.

 

[Kyubi]

Because I disapprove of Allah's action I am like Azazeel, nonsense if it was I in Iblis's position I would have just simply kneeled to Adam and pleased god rather then be righteous and not commit to sin. Because that’s what’s more important isn't it, pleasing god.

 

[Muezzin]

First lets get all the flame baiting out of the way;

There's no need to throw around insults, I can just as easily as yourself bicker and say "All of you muslims sound like 15 year old high school girls going through there period, calm down! Gosh!" But that would do nothing but make me look like an idiot I just hope you would follow suit if your going to take in this discussion.

Now on to more reputable members.

Easy, tiger. Sorry if that offended you.

And you mean "their" not "there". And "you're", not "your". And you probably need an "and" or a period/full stop after "idiot". Happens to the best of us, mate.

I do think you're getting a bit ad hominem though. The point I was ironically trying to make is that there is no use in simply complaining about hardship, which is how I interpreted your post. You just have to move on and roll with the punches as it were. Of course, I could have just misinterpreted your post.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Because I disapprove of Allah's action I am like Azazeel, nonsense if it was I in Iblis's position I would have just simply kneeled to Adam and pleased god rather then be righteous and not commit to sin. Because that’s what’s more important isn't it, pleasing god.

God created us and gave us sense of being, the feeling of being alive and many things more. He even created the air molecules so that we can breathe in that sweet oxygen. How else can we ever repay those debts? He didn't even ask for our money, but rather it is He who provided us with our lot.

For the Muslims, obeying & pleasing God is the only natural way of showing our gratitude to our Creator.

 

[Allah-creation]

The real sin is disobeying Allah, it is Allah who decide what is sin or good deed. Don't forget that it was Allah who made the law that prostrating to anyother being except Allah is a sin. Therefor, it is only Allah who can change that law.