Is Hijaab a TORTURE !!
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Khattab
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Thats another discussion, if they dont want to live by there book then it is there choice, but this is Islam many women if not most women who wear the hijab do so of there own will because they choose to follow Islam, it has been ordered by Allah (SWT) and as muslims we must follow the way of the Quran and Sunnah.
Also can a nun be a nun without covering up, her head etc, coming from a christian background i think you will have a better insight into this than me?
Also can a nun be a nun without covering up, her head etc, coming from a christian background i think you will have a better insight into this than me?
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Umm Yoosuf
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Root whats a woman getting raped by her husband got to do with Islam?
Do you think Islam allows it?
If you haven't forgotten I am a Muslim woman and i where the Hijaab on my own accord. I reject what the West is propagating to me.
That makesme oppressed does it?
Do you think Islam allows it?
If you haven't forgotten I am a Muslim woman and i where the Hijaab on my own accord. I reject what the West is propagating to me.
That makesme oppressed does it?
Umm Yoosuf
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It excuse me!?!
The USA doesn't have capital punishment?
Sheikh Haroon
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Peace Root.
Thank you for your response. I believe that it would greatly aid your deduction skills, were you to read and understand my post. No offense intended.
So you are telling me that your laws are not based on interpretation? Do you not interpret what you think is the most moral code? What your human instincts tell you? What you conscious tells you? Do you not interpret that to form your laws? Or perhaps they are divinely inspired to you. They must be interpreted; from all people - to fulfill the peoples' each and every sensual desire. That is interpretation, not Islam.
I urge you not to take example from the majority of the Muslims, they dont know their right hands from their left.
Regards
Thank you for your response. I believe that it would greatly aid your deduction skills, were you to read and understand my post. No offense intended.
Interpretation? Once again, your ignorance. We follow the Prophet, whose example was perfect, and his rightfully guided companions. Just look at the man, Muhammad (pbuh). He brought Arabia, a country which the superpowers didnt even look at because of how low it was, to the pinnacle of power in that age. If it werent for disunity, Islam would still be the superpower. Now i ask you, if it wasnt because of the truth that he preached, why was he accepted by so many? The Arabs are a more hardy folk than the whites. They stick to their traditions and cultures. They are not people to give in to new ideas. Yet practically all of them accepted this faith, why?
So you are telling me that your laws are not based on interpretation? Do you not interpret what you think is the most moral code? What your human instincts tell you? What you conscious tells you? Do you not interpret that to form your laws? Or perhaps they are divinely inspired to you. They must be interpreted; from all people - to fulfill the peoples' each and every sensual desire. That is interpretation, not Islam.
Ho ho, so because the thought is there, it is acceptable? Why give an incentive? That is my question to you, why take the chance? Let them think, they will always think, but you should take all precautions.
An example of not understanding my words? When did i say that blasphemy was a natural human instinct?
Whoever said that the Taliban, or any other regime for that matter, were fulfilling the laws of Islam correctly?
I can, yes, but since it is you who is trying to use them to make a point, ill let you have that honour.
At the present time, there is no such thing as an Islamic Republic. Therefore, your point collapsed before it started.
Islam does protect women. Dont judge Islam by the people who claim to be following it. If you have a beautiful, brand new, perfectly working car, and a rubbish driver, and the driver crashes, where does the blame lie? The car or the driver? The driver! Why? Because he didnt use it correctly. Same with Islam.
I urge you not to take example from the majority of the Muslims, they dont know their right hands from their left.
Regards
root
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Ok, this debate is getting too big for me to be able to manage. Can I break it down a little. I really object to the notion that Islam keeps the same statistics to rape and sexual harrassment. I know you said that I should look and I did and I cannot find them. (Because they don't exist)!!!!!
I found this though: Along with the names of 800 women currently in Pakistani jails that were dumb enough to cry rape when not in a Western country.
I still don't see how the mans "Guilt" is proven if not by 4 Muslim men who witnesses the "penetration"
How can the notion of "Rape" in the West v "Rape" in Islam be comparible for obviously they are not.
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Root
I found this though: Along with the names of 800 women currently in Pakistani jails that were dumb enough to cry rape when not in a Western country.
I still don't see how the mans "Guilt" is proven if not by 4 Muslim men who witnesses the "penetration"
How can the notion of "Rape" in the West v "Rape" in Islam be comparible for obviously they are not.
Regards
Root
root
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I don't think it is off-Topic. Since, if the "Rapist" be it Husband, friend or complete stranger. (and statistically you are at a far greater risk of rape from the people you actually know than a complete stranger).
before we can deal with the islamic sense of "protecting" a womens rights & freedom including being free from sexual harassment, I need to get a sense of how it is dealt with under an islamic law.
before we can deal with the islamic sense of "protecting" a womens rights & freedom including being free from sexual harassment, I need to get a sense of how it is dealt with under an islamic law.
S_87
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well then you are totally misintrepreting..so get proper evidences please. and pakistan aint a shariah ruled country either
did you know a woman can KILL a man for rape?
here goes...
A woman who is being forced to commit zinaa [unlawful sexual activity] is obliged to defend herself and should not give in even if she kills the one who wants to do that to her. This self-defence is waajib (obligatory), and she is not at fault if she kills the one who wants to force her into zinaa. Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever is killed defending his property is a shaheed (martyr), whoever is killed defending himself is a shaheed, whoever is killed defending his religion is a shaheed, and whoever is killed defending his family is a shaheed.” In the commentary on this hadeeth it says: “whoever is killed defending his family is a shaheed” refers to the one who defends the honour of his wife and female relatives.
If a man is obliged to defend his wife and fight off the one who wants to rape her – even if this leads to his own death – then this obligation applies even more to the woman herself, who must defend herself and not give in to the aggressor who wants to violate her honour, even if she is killed, because if she is killed she will also be a shaheedah, just as her husband will be a shaheed if he was killed defending her honour. Shahaadah (martyrdom, the status of shaheed) is a high status which is only achieved by the one who dies in the way of obedience to Allaah and that which He loves, which indicates that Allaah loves this kind of defence, a man’s fighting to defend his wife’s honour and a woman’s fighting to defend herself. But if she is unable to defend herself, and the evil aggressor overpowers her and rapes her by force, then she should not be subjected to any punishment (hadd or ta’zeer); rather, the punishment should be carried out on the evil aggressor.
It says in al-Mughni by Ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali: “Concerning a woman who was pursued by a man, and she killed him to protect herself, Ahmad said: ‘If she knew that he wanted [to rape] her, and she killed him to protect herself, then she is not at fault.’ Ahmad mentioned the hadeeth which al-Zuhri reported from al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad, from ‘Ubayd ibn ‘Umayr, in which it said that a man had visitors from [the tribe of] Hudhayl, and he wanted [to rape] a woman, so she threw a rock at him and killed him. ‘Umar said, ‘By Allaah, there is no diyah for him ever’ i.e., she did not have to pay the ‘blood money’ for him. If it is permissible to defend one's money, which one can give away, then a woman defending and protecting herself and her honour which cannot be given away, is clearly more permissible than a man defending his money. If this is clear, then she is obliged to defend herself if she can, because letting someone overpower her [rape her] is haraam, and by not defending herself, she lets him overpower her.” [al-Mughni, 8/331]
And Allaah knows best. Al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah, 5/42-43.
Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Turuq al-Hukmiyyah, 18: “(Section) … A woman who had committed zinaa was brought to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him), and he asked her about it and she admitted it, so he commanded that she should be stoned. ‘Ali said: ‘Maybe she had a reason.’ So he said to her, ‘What made you do that?’ She said, ‘I had a partner who shared livestock with me; his camels had water and milk, and mine had none. I got thirsty, so I asked him to give me something to drink, but he refused unless I let him have his way with me. I refused three times, but I was so thirsty that I thought I was going to die, so I gave him what he wanted, and he gave me something to drink.’ ‘Ali said: ‘Allaahu akbar! “… But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Baqarah 2:173 – interpretation of the meaning].’”
In Sunan al-Bayhaqi it says: “From Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sulami, who said: ‘A woman was brought to ‘Umar who had been extremely thirsty, and had passed by a shepherd and asked him to give her something to drink; he had refused to give her something to drink unless she let him have his way with her. [‘Umar] consulted with the people as to whether he should have her stoned. ‘Ali said, ‘She was forced to do it. I think you should let her go.’ So he did so. I say: this is what should be done. If a woman is in desperate need of food and drink from a man, which he will not give her unless she lets him have his way with her, and she is scared that she will die without them, so she lets him have his way with her, then she is not to be punished. If it were asked, is it permissible for her in this situation to let him have his way with her, or does she have to suffer [her hunger and thirst] with patience, even if she dies? The answer is that her case is like that of a woman who is forced to commit zinaa, to whom it is said, ‘Either you let me have my way with you, or I will kill you.’ The woman who is forced to do this should not be punished; she can save herself from being killed in this manner, but if she bears it (i.e., being killed) with sabr (patience), this is better for her. (But she does not have to put up with with being killed). And Allaah knows best.”
Sheikh muhammed Saleh munajid, islamqa.com
did you know a woman can KILL a man for rape?
here goes...
A woman who is being forced to commit zinaa [unlawful sexual activity] is obliged to defend herself and should not give in even if she kills the one who wants to do that to her. This self-defence is waajib (obligatory), and she is not at fault if she kills the one who wants to force her into zinaa. Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever is killed defending his property is a shaheed (martyr), whoever is killed defending himself is a shaheed, whoever is killed defending his religion is a shaheed, and whoever is killed defending his family is a shaheed.” In the commentary on this hadeeth it says: “whoever is killed defending his family is a shaheed” refers to the one who defends the honour of his wife and female relatives.
If a man is obliged to defend his wife and fight off the one who wants to rape her – even if this leads to his own death – then this obligation applies even more to the woman herself, who must defend herself and not give in to the aggressor who wants to violate her honour, even if she is killed, because if she is killed she will also be a shaheedah, just as her husband will be a shaheed if he was killed defending her honour. Shahaadah (martyrdom, the status of shaheed) is a high status which is only achieved by the one who dies in the way of obedience to Allaah and that which He loves, which indicates that Allaah loves this kind of defence, a man’s fighting to defend his wife’s honour and a woman’s fighting to defend herself. But if she is unable to defend herself, and the evil aggressor overpowers her and rapes her by force, then she should not be subjected to any punishment (hadd or ta’zeer); rather, the punishment should be carried out on the evil aggressor.
It says in al-Mughni by Ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali: “Concerning a woman who was pursued by a man, and she killed him to protect herself, Ahmad said: ‘If she knew that he wanted [to rape] her, and she killed him to protect herself, then she is not at fault.’ Ahmad mentioned the hadeeth which al-Zuhri reported from al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad, from ‘Ubayd ibn ‘Umayr, in which it said that a man had visitors from [the tribe of] Hudhayl, and he wanted [to rape] a woman, so she threw a rock at him and killed him. ‘Umar said, ‘By Allaah, there is no diyah for him ever’ i.e., she did not have to pay the ‘blood money’ for him. If it is permissible to defend one's money, which one can give away, then a woman defending and protecting herself and her honour which cannot be given away, is clearly more permissible than a man defending his money. If this is clear, then she is obliged to defend herself if she can, because letting someone overpower her [rape her] is haraam, and by not defending herself, she lets him overpower her.” [al-Mughni, 8/331]
And Allaah knows best. Al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah, 5/42-43.
Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Turuq al-Hukmiyyah, 18: “(Section) … A woman who had committed zinaa was brought to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him), and he asked her about it and she admitted it, so he commanded that she should be stoned. ‘Ali said: ‘Maybe she had a reason.’ So he said to her, ‘What made you do that?’ She said, ‘I had a partner who shared livestock with me; his camels had water and milk, and mine had none. I got thirsty, so I asked him to give me something to drink, but he refused unless I let him have his way with me. I refused three times, but I was so thirsty that I thought I was going to die, so I gave him what he wanted, and he gave me something to drink.’ ‘Ali said: ‘Allaahu akbar! “… But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Baqarah 2:173 – interpretation of the meaning].’”
In Sunan al-Bayhaqi it says: “From Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sulami, who said: ‘A woman was brought to ‘Umar who had been extremely thirsty, and had passed by a shepherd and asked him to give her something to drink; he had refused to give her something to drink unless she let him have his way with her. [‘Umar] consulted with the people as to whether he should have her stoned. ‘Ali said, ‘She was forced to do it. I think you should let her go.’ So he did so. I say: this is what should be done. If a woman is in desperate need of food and drink from a man, which he will not give her unless she lets him have his way with her, and she is scared that she will die without them, so she lets him have his way with her, then she is not to be punished. If it were asked, is it permissible for her in this situation to let him have his way with her, or does she have to suffer [her hunger and thirst] with patience, even if she dies? The answer is that her case is like that of a woman who is forced to commit zinaa, to whom it is said, ‘Either you let me have my way with you, or I will kill you.’ The woman who is forced to do this should not be punished; she can save herself from being killed in this manner, but if she bears it (i.e., being killed) with sabr (patience), this is better for her. (But she does not have to put up with with being killed). And Allaah knows best.”
Sheikh muhammed Saleh munajid, islamqa.com
root
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I think the world is full enough already with vigilantise.
HHmmm, an Islamic Republic being rejected, this can only mean that a "shariah" ruled country would be classed as an Islmic state. is this correct, if it is how does "Shariah" law differ to Pakistan law to rape in it's necessity of proof against an "alleged rapist", and would the accused be brought to justice for rape.
Regards
Root
Ansar Al-'Adl
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DNA evidence. Whatever solidifes the deal.
This is very different from zinaa where 4 witnesses are needed because that prevents it from becoming a societal issue. If there were 4 witnesses it is proof that the issue was not kept private but was spread into society, and then it must be punished.
Rape is different because it is a personal crime against a person. Therefore it is dealt with as any crime should be, and that includes collection of evidence and a fair hearing before convicting the accused.
This is very different from zinaa where 4 witnesses are needed because that prevents it from becoming a societal issue. If there were 4 witnesses it is proof that the issue was not kept private but was spread into society, and then it must be punished.
Rape is different because it is a personal crime against a person. Therefore it is dealt with as any crime should be, and that includes collection of evidence and a fair hearing before convicting the accused.
Ansar Al-'Adl
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Its not an issue of vigilante justice, its an issue of inalienable rights.root said:
root
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Ok. I understand that, but how do you know if someone was killed because of an attempted rape or murdered out of cold blood. It does look like a rarther grey area.
Please explain. I am not entirely sure I understand that.
What do you mean the issue was not kept quite. 4 Muslim witnesses who witnessed "penetration", unless someone is gang raped and they all confess what do you mean?
Again I am lost here.
S_87
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root..here are ayahs from the Holy Quran on this..
The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime, but if married persons commit it (illegal sex), the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh’s Law). (24/2)
Narrated Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه: Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم judged that the unmarried person who was guilty of illegal sexual intercourse be exiled for one year and receive the legal punishment (i.e., be flogged with one hundred stripes). (Sahih Al-Bukhâri, Vol.8, Hadith No. 819)
Narrated Jâbir bin ‘Abdullâh Al-Ansâri رضي الله عنهما: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and he bore witness four times against himself. Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person. (Sahih Al Bukhari, Vol.8, Hadith No.805).
And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). (24/4)
And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allâh that he is one of those who speak the truth.
And the fifth (testimony should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her).
But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie.
. And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (her husband) speaks the truth.
(24/6-9)
The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime, but if married persons commit it (illegal sex), the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh’s Law). (24/2)
Narrated Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه: Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم judged that the unmarried person who was guilty of illegal sexual intercourse be exiled for one year and receive the legal punishment (i.e., be flogged with one hundred stripes). (Sahih Al-Bukhâri, Vol.8, Hadith No. 819)
Narrated Jâbir bin ‘Abdullâh Al-Ansâri رضي الله عنهما: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and he bore witness four times against himself. Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person. (Sahih Al Bukhari, Vol.8, Hadith No.805).
And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). (24/4)
And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allâh that he is one of those who speak the truth.
And the fifth (testimony should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her).
But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie.
. And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (her husband) speaks the truth.
(24/6-9)
root
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Please correct me if I am wrong but the above is relevent to "adultery" and not rape.
Again, this is adultery & not rape. Besides which the perpetrator is confessing.
How would an "Islamic State" fully implementing shaier rule law over rape? since an Islamic republic seems to be rejected by it's governing of rape allegations.
regards
Root
Sheikh Haroon
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Peace root.
Stopped dialoguing with me have you?
Regards
Stopped dialoguing with me have you?
Regards
Sheikh Haroon
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Peace Root.
Unless i misunderstand your stance, you are asking regarding rape? Well, this is not a sex offense, it is a violent crime, and requires thorough investigation. It can be punishable by the death sentence, if proven. Ultimately, however, the deed is between the person and God Almighty, who will serve justice when the person meets Him.
You have to remember something. True Muslims (submitters to the will of God - install this to understand that it is not meant as an elevation) do not need punishments, nor do they need trials, nor lashes, nor anything like that. These laws are installed to protect society as a whole, to serve society, and strengthen it. Islam has been incredible lenient (if that is the correct word) on fornicators and adulterers. You must have FOUR witnesses, who actually see the penetration, to testify. Now, consider the logic. If there is a naked man on top of a naked woman, what would they be doing? It is pretty self explanatory, right? This law has been installed so that innocent would not be held liable, or even given a dirty look as punishment. The guilty shall always be guilty, and ultimately it will be God who delivers their sentence. However, Islam is there to protect the people, the sincere people, and it shows mercy and forgiveness above punishment. There isnt one case when someone asked forgiveness from the Prophet (pbuh) and he didnt grant it.
I am pleased that we are dialoguing in such an honourable and amicable way. Keep it up, my friend.
Warm Regards
Unless i misunderstand your stance, you are asking regarding rape? Well, this is not a sex offense, it is a violent crime, and requires thorough investigation. It can be punishable by the death sentence, if proven. Ultimately, however, the deed is between the person and God Almighty, who will serve justice when the person meets Him.
You have to remember something. True Muslims (submitters to the will of God - install this to understand that it is not meant as an elevation) do not need punishments, nor do they need trials, nor lashes, nor anything like that. These laws are installed to protect society as a whole, to serve society, and strengthen it. Islam has been incredible lenient (if that is the correct word) on fornicators and adulterers. You must have FOUR witnesses, who actually see the penetration, to testify. Now, consider the logic. If there is a naked man on top of a naked woman, what would they be doing? It is pretty self explanatory, right? This law has been installed so that innocent would not be held liable, or even given a dirty look as punishment. The guilty shall always be guilty, and ultimately it will be God who delivers their sentence. However, Islam is there to protect the people, the sincere people, and it shows mercy and forgiveness above punishment. There isnt one case when someone asked forgiveness from the Prophet (pbuh) and he didnt grant it.
I am pleased that we are dialoguing in such an honourable and amicable way. Keep it up, my friend
.Warm Regards