Umm Yoosuf
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Subhanallah the discussion as moved onto rape!
Is Hijaab a TORTURE !!
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root
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Jannah said:
Not really, forgive me but I have been a litle busy lately. I am still researching this matter and I beleive their is a link between rape and sexual crimes comparable with a women of Islam "covering up" for want of a better word.
Thanks for your kind words Sheikh. I feel I will enjoy the debates with you too.
Regards
Umm Yoosuf
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Debate over then....
Sheikh Haroon
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No sister, the discussion isnt over. I believe root is merely trying to get his head around some of the issues discussed, and let's face it, we have given him quite a long list of ideas to get his teeth into, no? I think this thread will go on for a while yet, as root seems like one of those intellectuals who keep on coming out with the ideas. Usually it is they that see the light most clearly, hence why i have such an honour discussing with him.
I think this thread will go on for a while yet, as root seems like one of those intellectuals who keep on coming out with the ideas. Usually it is they that see the light most clearly, hence why i have such an honour discussing with him.Umm Yoosuf
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Masha Allah ok! Well I look forward to more of his questions
Sheikh Haroon
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Peace Root.
The punishment for rape is death.
Regards
The punishment for rape is death.
Rape isnt fornication, nor adultery, it is a violent, terrible crime.
Regards
root
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OK I can accept this for what it is. But I feel it is avoiding the issue of your laws since your example deals with the perpetrator confessing. This issue over how an Islamic rule of law deals with rape is not being laid before me, all I seek is an answer to this. "How is rape allegations handled under true Islamic law and\or does the Pakistan law comply in the true spirit of the Islam law to this regard.
Regards
Root
Regards
Root
Chuck
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Muslim jurists are generally of the opinion that to evidence a case of rape, the victim has to provide four (not two) witnesses to prove the case. The basis of the Jurist's opinion is the Qur'anic directive regarding the evidence required to start any legal proceedings against persons who have been accused of fornication.
However, a close look at the related verse of the Qur'an shows that it neither relates to the required evidence for rape cases nor for that of ordinary cases of fornication. On the contrary, it relates to the particular situation in which a person, who is generally known to be chaste and pious, is accused of fornication. For this particular case, the Qur'an says:
Those who accuse chaste women of fornication and then do not provide four witnesses [to evidence their accusation] strike them with eighty strips and do not accept their witness ever after. (Al-Noor 24: 4)
Keeping the stresses of the words of the referred verse in perspective, it is quite clear that the verse does not relate to the evidence required to prove a case of rape. On the contrary, it actually relates to protecting chaste women (as well as men) from false accusations of fornication. In other words, the verse is not prescribing the minimum number of witnesses to prove a case of rape or fornication; it is actually prescribing the minimum number of witnesses, which must be present and willing to testify against those accused of fornication, to initiate any court proceedings or to admit a case against such accused. This is quite clear from the fact that in the absence of the prescribed number of witnesses, the verse prescribes a severe punishment for the person/persons making the accusation.
Thus, according to my understanding of the related verse, the referred opinion of the Muslim jurists is not very accurate.
Furthermore, even if it is accepted that the verse prescribes the number of witnesses to prove a case of fornication, as has generally been derived by the Muslim jurists, it would still not be correct, in my opinion, to draw an analogy between rape and fornication, especially in the case of the requirement of witnesses. I am sure you would agree with me that nothing, besides the fact that both the crimes relate to sex, is common between rape and fornication. It is obvious that in the case of fornication, there is, generally, no aggrieved party, which may be termed as a complainant (in its literal sense). On the contrary, a case of fornication is, generally, initiated with an accusation on two persons (a man and a woman), who have willingly (with mutual consent) indulged in an act considered to be a crime in the Islamic Shari`ah. The reason for this peculiar position of fornication is that - in contrast to other crimes like theft, murder, robbery and even rape - fornication is a crime in which neither of the parties directly involved in it assumes the role of a complainant. The complainant, in the case of fornication, is generally a third party, not directly involved in the crime (which may, therefore, be more accurately termed as an 'accuser').
The position of a rape victim is, obviously, not comparable to that of one of the two (or more) parties to fornication. I, therefore, do not agree with the opinion of the majority of the Muslim jurists, who have drawn an analogy between a rape victim and a party to fornication and, therefore, are of the opinion that the evidence required to prove a case of rape is the same as the one required in proving a case of fornication[1].
In my opinion, the Shari`ah has not given any strict guidelines or rules regarding how to prove a case of rape, just as no strict and universal guidelines and rules have been given by the Shari`ah regarding the methods of proving any other crime. The reason for this silence of the Shari`ah, in the referred case, is quite obvious. We know that the methods employed in evidencing crimes greatly rely upon the human developments in the field of forensics and other investigative disciplines. Thus, the methods that can so easily be employed in the modern day were more or less unimaginable just a few years ago. Had the Shari`ah prescribed any rules regarding the methods of proving a crime, such methods would have become redundant with any developments in the field of forensics and other investigative disciplines.
In view of the above explanation, it is my opinion that the case of rape, as any other crime, except an accusation of fornication, does not require the complainant to provide a given number of witnesses, for the initiation of any legal proceedings. On the contrary, when a victim of rape - which is actually an aggrieved party in a crime rather than a party to it - brings her complaint to an authority, it is not merely an accusation, on the contrary, it is in fact a complaint of an injustice that she has suffered at the hands of the accused. In such a case, the legal authority, if it is satisfied[2] of the complainant's appeal, may initiate any legal proceedings against the accused even if the complainant does not have any witnesses to prove her claim. The case shall, subsequently, be decided on the basis of all such evidence, which is considered admissible by the competent legal authority.
3rd August 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] As should be clear from the preceding paragraphs, in my opinion, the Qur'an has not even given any strict criteria to prove a case of fornication.
[2] This satisfaction of the authority may be based on any grounds admissible in such cases.
http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=396
However, a close look at the related verse of the Qur'an shows that it neither relates to the required evidence for rape cases nor for that of ordinary cases of fornication. On the contrary, it relates to the particular situation in which a person, who is generally known to be chaste and pious, is accused of fornication. For this particular case, the Qur'an says:
Those who accuse chaste women of fornication and then do not provide four witnesses [to evidence their accusation] strike them with eighty strips and do not accept their witness ever after. (Al-Noor 24: 4)
Keeping the stresses of the words of the referred verse in perspective, it is quite clear that the verse does not relate to the evidence required to prove a case of rape. On the contrary, it actually relates to protecting chaste women (as well as men) from false accusations of fornication. In other words, the verse is not prescribing the minimum number of witnesses to prove a case of rape or fornication; it is actually prescribing the minimum number of witnesses, which must be present and willing to testify against those accused of fornication, to initiate any court proceedings or to admit a case against such accused. This is quite clear from the fact that in the absence of the prescribed number of witnesses, the verse prescribes a severe punishment for the person/persons making the accusation.
Thus, according to my understanding of the related verse, the referred opinion of the Muslim jurists is not very accurate.
Furthermore, even if it is accepted that the verse prescribes the number of witnesses to prove a case of fornication, as has generally been derived by the Muslim jurists, it would still not be correct, in my opinion, to draw an analogy between rape and fornication, especially in the case of the requirement of witnesses. I am sure you would agree with me that nothing, besides the fact that both the crimes relate to sex, is common between rape and fornication. It is obvious that in the case of fornication, there is, generally, no aggrieved party, which may be termed as a complainant (in its literal sense). On the contrary, a case of fornication is, generally, initiated with an accusation on two persons (a man and a woman), who have willingly (with mutual consent) indulged in an act considered to be a crime in the Islamic Shari`ah. The reason for this peculiar position of fornication is that - in contrast to other crimes like theft, murder, robbery and even rape - fornication is a crime in which neither of the parties directly involved in it assumes the role of a complainant. The complainant, in the case of fornication, is generally a third party, not directly involved in the crime (which may, therefore, be more accurately termed as an 'accuser').
The position of a rape victim is, obviously, not comparable to that of one of the two (or more) parties to fornication. I, therefore, do not agree with the opinion of the majority of the Muslim jurists, who have drawn an analogy between a rape victim and a party to fornication and, therefore, are of the opinion that the evidence required to prove a case of rape is the same as the one required in proving a case of fornication[1].
In my opinion, the Shari`ah has not given any strict guidelines or rules regarding how to prove a case of rape, just as no strict and universal guidelines and rules have been given by the Shari`ah regarding the methods of proving any other crime. The reason for this silence of the Shari`ah, in the referred case, is quite obvious. We know that the methods employed in evidencing crimes greatly rely upon the human developments in the field of forensics and other investigative disciplines. Thus, the methods that can so easily be employed in the modern day were more or less unimaginable just a few years ago. Had the Shari`ah prescribed any rules regarding the methods of proving a crime, such methods would have become redundant with any developments in the field of forensics and other investigative disciplines.
In view of the above explanation, it is my opinion that the case of rape, as any other crime, except an accusation of fornication, does not require the complainant to provide a given number of witnesses, for the initiation of any legal proceedings. On the contrary, when a victim of rape - which is actually an aggrieved party in a crime rather than a party to it - brings her complaint to an authority, it is not merely an accusation, on the contrary, it is in fact a complaint of an injustice that she has suffered at the hands of the accused. In such a case, the legal authority, if it is satisfied[2] of the complainant's appeal, may initiate any legal proceedings against the accused even if the complainant does not have any witnesses to prove her claim. The case shall, subsequently, be decided on the basis of all such evidence, which is considered admissible by the competent legal authority.
3rd August 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] As should be clear from the preceding paragraphs, in my opinion, the Qur'an has not even given any strict criteria to prove a case of fornication.
[2] This satisfaction of the authority may be based on any grounds admissible in such cases.
http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=396
Umm Yoosuf
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Root I don't get it what don't you understand from the hadith that Haroon posted. From my understanding the woman said this guy raped me.....she didn't have to proof it or bring forward a witness....He was going to be punished...
Sheikh Haroon
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Peace Root.
I cant sum it up better than Chuck.
Regards
I cant sum it up better than Chuck.
Regards
root
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Yes I agree that is quite a conclusive piece.
I have two points to make. One of clarity and the other of hypothosis.
The first, is that it seems that 4 witnesses would be required for an adulterers relationship with fornication. In the case of a Muslim, they would require 4 muslim witnesses. Since for the moment we are not dealing with rape but fornication. That is the mutual consent on both parties to engage in sex to which Islamic law seems quite clear.
Yes or No would be a great answer to my above summary.
The second now deals with an hypothosis. Chuck's "cut n paste" job was quite definitive until it reached the very end where I have quoted below.
We have already established have we not that whilst their is no such thing as an "islamic state" anywhere on this planet. Because Islam is composed of the Aqeedah (doctrine) and a collection of laws emanating from it, the Islamic State must derive its entire constitution from the Islamic Aqeedah. All of the systems, laws, and regulations must emanate solely from the Islamic Aqeedah and the sources of Shariah
So my hypothosis is thus Shariah law IS the competent legal authority to an Islamic State which makes it inadequate when dealing with rape cases.
Opinions are all good and well. But opinions are just that. "opinions", so where does this leave an Islamic ruling on rape or indeed what constitutes rape in the eyes of Islamic law. Of course the answer will be an Hypothosis also since their is no Islamic State.
Regards
Root
I have two points to make. One of clarity and the other of hypothosis.
The first, is that it seems that 4 witnesses would be required for an adulterers relationship with fornication. In the case of a Muslim, they would require 4 muslim witnesses. Since for the moment we are not dealing with rape but fornication. That is the mutual consent on both parties to engage in sex to which Islamic law seems quite clear.
Yes or No would be a great answer to my above summary.
The second now deals with an hypothosis. Chuck's "cut n paste" job was quite definitive until it reached the very end where I have quoted below.
We have already established have we not that whilst their is no such thing as an "islamic state" anywhere on this planet. Because Islam is composed of the Aqeedah (doctrine) and a collection of laws emanating from it, the Islamic State must derive its entire constitution from the Islamic Aqeedah. All of the systems, laws, and regulations must emanate solely from the Islamic Aqeedah and the sources of Shariah
So my hypothosis is thus Shariah law IS the competent legal authority to an Islamic State which makes it inadequate when dealing with rape cases.
Opinions are all good and well. But opinions are just that. "opinions", so where does this leave an Islamic ruling on rape or indeed what constitutes rape in the eyes of Islamic law. Of course the answer will be an Hypothosis also since their is no Islamic State.
Regards
Root
HaYa-MiD gIrL
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firsl of all ...jazakilahu khayran for ur post
its so important
look..cuz iam arabian i wanna say somthing...
in our comunities there r a lot of girls who dont wear Hijab,,,cuz they feel that it forbids them of wearing some kind of clothes that they want to wear ..they want to be seen by others as u say,,they think that hijab is "retrospective"!!!and they say that the imprtance is in what in head and mind..not in which over the head(hijab)! ......and i regret thet alot of girls argue about this topic and say that the good manners are the most important thing ...!!! strange!
hijab is imprtant thing to show others that u r muslim like the doctors ,policeman..we know them from thier uniform..right?!
and she must show the proud of islam and everything related to it..
my regards
its so important
look..cuz iam arabian i wanna say somthing...
in our comunities there r a lot of girls who dont wear Hijab,,,cuz they feel that it forbids them of wearing some kind of clothes that they want to wear ..they want to be seen by others as u say,,they think that hijab is "retrospective"!!!and they say that the imprtance is in what in head and mind..not in which over the head(hijab)! ......and i regret thet alot of girls argue about this topic and say that the good manners are the most important thing ...!!! strange!
hijab is imprtant thing to show others that u r muslim like the doctors ,policeman..we know them from thier uniform..right?!
and she must show the proud of islam and everything related to it..
my regards
sshuraimno1fan
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assalamu alikum so u sed "and i regret thet alot of girls argue about this topic and say that the good manners are the most important thing ...!!! strange!
", so then look at this; a girl wears full hijaab but has a disgusting vulgar mouth? what is the use of that if she is not associating it properly if she does not have good manners, does not pray one single salah?? on the other hand if you had a girl who prays fight times daily, hijaab comes naturally and there's no point forcing girls to wear it because then they will never wear it instead of advising u lot are arguing..
also, why does this whole thread seem to concentrate on the women's hijaab? just like usual everybody has forgotoon all about the hijaab of the man which is to wear a kufi(jabbah) n hat(turban), but everyone always concentrates on the ladies. My advice? Everyone correct themselves/hijaabs before going around and telling others.