Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

[Muhammad]

Greetings Eliphaz,

Thank you for your reply.

I also appreciate that Orientalists who have made their living from studying Arabic and Arabic-speaking non-Muslims can also appreciate the linguistic superiority of the Qur’an. If anything, this makes me bitterer towards the God of the Qur’an for giving us something so sweet yet so inaccessible!

The Qur'an is accessible to everyone. As I mentioned earlier, you don't have to be an Arab to appreciate its beauty. Simply listening to the sound of the Qur'an being recited brings peace and tranquility, even if the person is not able to appreciate the finer points of the language and style of the Qur'an. Moreover, anyone approaching the Qur'an seeking guidance will find it. But the more knowledge one has of the Arabic language and all the other sciences of the Qur'an, the higher will be their degree of benefit from the Qur'an.

But nonetheless, I am resuming my Arabic studies next year so here’s hoping that I too may one day be able to recognise the beauty of the Qur’an, if only from a linguistic perspective.

That's good - all the best with your studies, though you can start recognising the truth and beauty of the Qur'an much sooner!

Musaylimah’s attempts comes across more as mockery than a serious attempt:

"The elephant. What is the elephant? And who shall tell you what is the elephant? He has a ropy tail and a long trunk. This is a [mere] trifle of our Lord's creations."

Musaylimah the Liar was a man who actually claimed to be a Prophet himself during the Prophet Muhammad's (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) time! The incident was as follows (recorded in Tafsir Ibn Kathir):

They have mentioned that `Amr bin Al-`As went to visit Musaylimah Al-Kadhdhab after the Messenger of Allah was commissioned (as a Prophet) and before `Amr had accepted Islam. Upon his arrival, Musaylimah said to him,

"What has been revealed to your friend (Muhammad ) during this time''

`Amr said, "A short and concise Surah has been revealed to him.''

Musaylimah then said, "What is it'' `Amr replied;


(By Al-`Asr. Verily, man is in loss. Except those who believe and do righteous deeds, and recommend one another to the truth, and recommend one another to patience.)

So Musaylimah thought for a while. Then he said, "Indeed something similar has also been revealed to me.''

`Amr asked him, "What is it''

He replied, "O Wabr (a small, furry mammal; hyrax), O Wabr! You are only two ears and a chest, and the rest of you is digging and burrowing.''

Then he said, "What do you think, O `Amr''

So `Amr said to him, "By Allah! Verily, you know that I know you are lying.''

... The Wabr is a small animal that resembles a cat, and the largest thing on it is its ears and its torso, while the rest of it is ugly. Musaylimah intended by the composition of these nonsensical verses to produce something which would oppose the Qur'an. Yet, it was not even convincing to the idol worshipper of that time.

​

I think the verses you quoted are a different example of someone attempting to write in the style of the Qur'an.

We know that he took part in extensive trade journeys to Syria from 590-610 AD, which was ruled by the Romans and there would have been many Arabic-speaking Christians in Syria at the time. We also know that there were several Jewish tribes scattered across the Hijaz with whom the Makkans traded, particularly in Yathrib/Medina. If you ask me, the stories of the Prophets are so simple that a single telling of them would allow one to remember them, and we know that the Arabs had a strong oral tradition and as a result, a good memory.

These are only desperate attempts to explain what the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came with, and they are not new. Allaah (swt) says in the Qur'an,

Those who disbelieve say: "This is nothing but a lie that he has invented, and others have helped him in it.'' In fact, they have produced an unjust wrong and a lie. And they say: "Tales of the ancients which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon.'' Say: "It has been sent down by Him Who knows the secret of the heavens and the earth. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'' [Al-Furqan: 4-6]

In the explanation of these verses, it mentions:

It is ... a common fact that Muhammad the Messenger of Allah never learned to read or write, either at the beginning or the end of his life. He grew up among them for approximately forty years, from the time he was born until the time when his mission began. They knew all about him, and about his honest and sound character and how he would never lie or do anything immoral or bad. They even used to call him Al-Amin (the Trustworthy One) from a young age, until his mission began, because they saw how truthful and honest he was. When Allah honored him with that which He honored him, they declared their enmity towards him and came up with all these accusations which any reasonable person would know he was innocent of. They were not sure what to accuse him of. Sometimes they said that he was a sorcerer, at other times they would say he was a poet, or crazy, or a liar. So Allah said:

See what examples they have put forward for you. So they have gone astray, and never can they find a way. [17:48]

​

It is a very strange notion to suggest that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was taught by the Jews and Christians and if one were to examine this claim in more detail, it would quickly become apparent that it is baseless. Here are some examples in this regard.

Rather than teaching him their scriptures, the knowledgeable among the Jews and Christians recognised that he was the Messenger of truth who was prophecised in their very scriptures, hence the respect and behaviour towards him on the part of Bahira the Christian monk and Waraqah bin Nawfal and others. We even learn how some tested him regarding information that only a prophet could know, as I mentioned earlier regarding the revelation of Surah Al-Kahf. The same happened with Abdullah bin Salam, who was regarded as the most learned and best person amongst the Jews - he asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah) some questions that only a prophet would be able to answer and upon hearing the correct responses, he himself submitted to the message of Islam.


Furthermore, rather than conforming to the desires and deviations of such people (as one might expect if the Jews and Christians were the teachers of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)), the Qur'an refuted their claims, corrected what was in their scriptures and criticised them for their evil actions. Allaah (swt) mentions,

O People of the Scripture! Now has come to you Our Messenger explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over much. [5: 15]

The Qur'an explained some of what they altered, distorted, changed and lied about Allah, and also ignored much of what they changed, since it would not bring about any benefit if it was explained.


A nice example to illustrate this is the story behind the following verses,

And of the Jews are men who listen much and eagerly to lies, listening to others who have not come to you. They change the words from their places; they say, "If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, then beware!'' [5: 41]

It is reported that this Ayah was revealed about two Jews who committed adultery. The Jews changed the law they had in their Book from Allah regarding punishment for adultery, from stoning to death, to a hundred flogs and making the offenders ride a donkey facing the back of the donkey:

`Abdullah bin `Umar said, "The Jews came to Allah's Messenger and mentioned that a man and a woman from them committed adultery. Allah's Messenger said to them, 'What do find of the ruling about stoning in the Tawrah?' They said, 'We only find that they should be exposed and flogged.'

'Abdullah bin Salam said, 'You lie. The Tawrah mentions stoning, so bring the Tawrah.' They brought the Tawrah and opened it but one of them hid the verse about stoning with his hand and recited what is before and after that verse. `Abdullah bin Salam said to him, 'Remove your hand,' and he removed it, thus uncovering the verse about stoning. So they said, 'He (`Abdullah bin Salam) has said the truth, O Muhammad! It is the verse about stoning.' The Messenger of Allah decided that the adulterers be stoned to death and his command was carried out. I saw that man shading the woman from the stones with his body.'' [Al-Bukhari and Muslim also collected this Hadith and this is the wording collected by Al-Bukhari]


So the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah) asked them about the ruling of stoning in the Tawrah to make them admit to what the Tawrah contains and what they collaborated to hide, deny and exclude from implementing for all that time. They had to admit to what they did, although they did it while having knowledge of the correct ruling. As they did not adhere to the Tawrah but instead preferred other laws over it which they knew were not correct, they were chastised in the Qur'an,


But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Tawrah, in which is the decision of Allah; yet even after that they turn away. For they are not believers. [5: 43]


So from this it is evident that the Jews could never be the teachers of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah), rather it is the other way round when the latter was bringing the truth that the former sought to hide.

There is yet more contradicting information to the notion that the Jews and Christians taught Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Br. Uthman mentioned earlier that the details given in the Qur'an with regards to certain historical events sometimes contradict those given in the Bible, and in addition to this, some stories in the Qur'an are not mentioned in the Bible or they are told differently. The stories it mentions such as those of the 'Ad and Thamud were not known to any people, whether they were Christians, Jews, Sabians, Zoroastrians or the Pagans of Makkah.

Another aspect to consider is, putting aside conjecture and going by established facts of the Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allaa be upon him) biography, the main time when Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came into contact with Jews and Christians was in Madinah. During the time he preached in Makkah for 13 years, most of his revelations contained the stories of previous prophets. Yet in Madinah, when he came into contact with the Jews and Christians, his revelations were no longer about previous prophets but primarily on subjects of religious legislation. From this perspective, how can we say that he borrowed ideas from Jews and Christians when he preached those ideas before he met Jews and Christians?


So in summary of this point, all the information that we have regarding the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah) points towards the fact that the Qur'an was divinely inspired and that the information contained therein of the histories of the previous nations was a very powerful factor in proving this. The arguments to the contrary do not hold any weight as they are not based on anything but mere conjecture and when examined further, they prove to be irrational and futile.

I feel that given that recognition of the literary miracle is a result of birthright and/or extended study, the predictions of worldly events would be the best shot any book has of being God’s word, and if they were not so ambiguous or subjective I would be far more likely to give them some credence.

Predictions of worldly events would indeed be a hit-and-miss affair, yet nothing in the Qur'an has ever been wrong. Moreover, clear predictions do exist and they are undeniable.

Persians defeating the Romans: "Alif, Lam, Mim. The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will be victorious within three to nine years. The affair is Allah's from beginning to end." (Qur'an, 30:1-4) I think the fact that it is said ‘three to nine years’ speaks for itself. Why would God need an upper and lower bound on any prediction when He has written all that will happen on a divine tablet?

The Arabic word used is Bid', which has been translated as a number between 3-9. The fact that the prediction is not given to the exact moment is of little consequence, because the story surrounding the revelation of these verses is no less than remarkable and a clear prediction took place. Please read the post here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/566482-post2.html

And it's also mentioned here: http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=30&tid=40123

Victory at Badr: The Qur’an nowhere gives a prediction of victory at Badr, it simply reflects on the victory which has already taken place: “Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude." (Qur'an, 3:123–125)

That's not the verse I was referring to. Rather it was this one,

Their multitude will be put to flight, and they will show their backs. [54: 45]

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "The Prophet , while in a dome-shaped tent on the day of the battle of Badr, said,

'O Allah! I ask you for the fulfillment of Your covenant and promise. O Allah! If You wish (to destroy the believers), You will never be worshipped on the earth after today.' Abu Bakr caught him by the hand and said, `This is sufficient, O Allah's Messenger! You have sufficiently asked and petitioned Allah.' The Prophet was clad in his armor at that time and went out, saying,


Their multitude will be put to flight and they will show their backs. Nay, but the Hour is their appointed time and that Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.''

Establishment of Islam as ruling authority of the Land: This is simply a case of if it hadn’t happened; we wouldn’t be here discussing the prediction, so it is a moot point.

But it did happen and here we are. The verse regarding it is:

Allah has promised those among you who believe and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession in the land, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion which He has chosen for them. And He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear if they worship Me and do not associate anything with Me. But whoever disbelieved after this, they are the rebellious. [24: 55]

More info: http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=36274

Formation of human life: I am aware that this is the foremost claim made by Muslims of the Qur’an’s scientific merit. However, I, like most people, have not studied embryology in enough depth to begin to try and talk about this. Therefore to do so I believe would not only be a disservice to that topic but also to this discussion.

Thank you for your honesty. The Qur'an does indeed make a number of references to this subject and it truly is amazing. We've had a number of threads on this topic so if you have time, you can try browsing through those.

Formation of milk: There is one ayah dealing with this, barely a line long, and for me to say ‘between blood and dung’ is not describing the formation of milk unless you really want it to.

We have to remember that the Qur'an is not a book primarily devoted to science and therefore such references are typically brief and not very descriptive. But even in these limited descriptions, the Qur'an conforms to modern science and imparts knowledge unknown at the time it was revealed.

Regarding the verse in question, it is clearly referring to the formation of milk:

And verily! In the cattle, there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies, from between excretions and blood, pure milk; palatable to the drinkers.

You can see what Dr. Maurice Bucaille has to say here: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/19animal.htm#4.%20The%20Source%20of%20the%20Constituents%20of%20Animal%20Milk

He also speaks about various other aspects of the Qur'an and science such as the others you responded to, but as I have little knowledge in this regard I am not going to comment on it. It should be borne in mind however that what we personally feel as being important to mention does not necessarily mean it is important. For example, you spoke about the earth and how its orbit is important. Yet Allaah (swt) has spoken of the earth many times in the Qur'an, such as how it has been made habitable for us and the crops which grow etc. So for you to argue what is and isn't important is irrelevant here, and I am sure if we were to research this further, the wisdom of why Allaah (swt) has mentioned what He has would become increasingly apparent.

The other thing you mentioned about the sun and moon - it is simply your own interpretation. If we look at what the Qur'anic commentators have said, we will get a clearer idea of what is meant. For example,

Ikrimah said concerning the Ayah,

(It is not for the sun to overtake the moon,) this means that each of them has its time when it prevails. So it is not appropriate for the sun to rise at night.
​

In my opinion, it doesn’t ‘vehemently deny’ them, it just doesn’t mention them. If you think of the OT as the first draft and the Qur’an as the second, it makes sense to omit certain aspects which people might find objectionable or contradictory to the Qur’an, for example, it is important that there was no mention of any of the previous Prophets drinking, considering the Qur’an claims they were all sending the same message.

Your reasoning here is totally incorrect. Firstly you are thinking on the premise that the Qur'an was copied from the Bible which we have already discussed above and seen how absurd it is. Secondly, Islam makes it clear that the Prophets were all people of integrity and we believe that they were protected from committing major sins such as adultery and drinking wine etc. They were, however, infallible with regards to conveying the message from Allaah (swt). And if one reads the verses about the Prophets in the Qur'an, he will notice how much they are praised and exemplified to be followed. Thirdly, you made a mistake in thinking that the same law was given to all the prophets - rather they all had the same core belief in the unity of Allaah, Judgement Day etc, but had different laws whereby to judge their people. But even with this understanding, what was said about protection from major sins still applies.

Not really. Only the all-encompassing nature of it is apparent. But don’t you see the difficulty in implementing Shariah and forming a single Caliphate, not just 1400 years after the beginning of Islam, but a mere generation after the death of the Prophet, as an indication that it doesn’t work? It is fine to say that it was revolutionary the time, (babies were being buried, women were property etc) but look at what happened after the death of the Prophet and it is clear to me that Shariah doesn’t work.

I doubt you have studied the Shariah enough to realise what it truly constitutes. After the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), his Companions continued to uphold the Shariah and a huge amount can be learnt from their success. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say it doesn't work - perhaps you can be more specific. But it is common for people to confuse the actions of some Muslims with Shariah law - we should be clear that not every Muslim leader represents Shariah law. Btw, we have some threads on this topic which you might be interested in, such as:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/4498-shariah-law.html

I don’t deny that the Qur’an is the most authentic religious book, but given my opinion of religious books that is not saying a lot.

It seems you have allowed preconceived opinions to get in the way of sincere searching...

Yes. If there was an incentive to do so, a mirage-like promise of entering Heaven purely based on a sincere memorisation of a book which one may or may not fully comprehend, then yes, I believe so. If only there was a way of proving this, but alas.

You are putting the Qur'an's ease of being memorised down to a simple fact of incentive. However, there are much simpler deeds that promise people Paradise in Islam. For example, there are hadeeth which promise Paradise for those who believe in the testimonies of faith, for fulfilling the 5 pillars of Islam, for memorising 99 Names of Allaah, for performing an accepted Hajj etc. So there are many deeds that can be rewarded with Paradise, not just memorising the Qur'an (and the important thing is to have those deeds accepted and ultimately there is no guarantee for someone to do a particular deed to then sit back and wait for Paradise. Rather one has to exert his full effort and fulfill all that is required of him, and it will only be from the Mercy of Allaah (swt) that anyone will enter Paradise). So the incentive behind memorising the Qur'an can't be the only explanation for its widespread memorisation.

Furthermore, there is clearly a difference between memorising the Qur'an and other books. Look at the Bible for example - how many versions does it have and which one is the right one to memorise? Which language would you memorise it in? Rather the Qur'an is unique in every way and it has been made easy for the Muslims to memorise as Allaah (swt) has said. This is why people of all ages, backgrounds, nationalities and capabilities across the world have been able to memorise it. Usually one might expect that only people with a strong memory and those who speak the language and understand it well can memorise a particular thing. Yet the Qur'an is memorised by non-Arabs and those who are very old and many others, clearly indicating that it is a book whose memorisation has been made easy.

To me the arguments of ‘X people memorise the Qur’an’, ‘people read the Qur’an X times in a year’ are all missing the point. If the Qur’an did not claim to offer a reward for these activities, namely, intercession, then it would not be read nearly as much, and therefore I do not see this as a valid argument of the Qur’an coming from God, just as proof that if you convince people with the right incentives they will do anything.

Of course the reward for actions are a motive for people to do them, as Allaah (swt) has linked certain rewards with certain actions, just as He has linked certain punishments with certain sins. But it is Allaah (swt) who gives people the ability to carry out such actions - you cannot necessarily accomplish something just because it has an incentive behind it. There are many Muslims who fall short in various ways, even though they know there is a punishment for it, and they lag behind in deeds even though they know there is reward for doing them. So you see incentive alone cannot achieve the desired result. Rather it is Allaah (swt) who has given the Ummah a huge attachment to the Qur'an and facilitated its recitation and memorisation and given it a status like no other book has. All of this is a clear indication that the Qur'an is from Allaah (swt).

Because I felt they were not worth commenting on.

I think you mean you could not deny their amazing nature!

Peace.

P.S. Sorry about the really long post!

 

[Hugo]

Your assumptions in the question posed are based on an a priori judgment and not supported by fact- thus what you deem a 'hyperbole' is mere self-complacency and cognitive dissonance rather than actual refutation-- I don't know how you've made that leap?!

I gave examples so there were no assumptions just an illustration to make my question as clear as I could. I never claimed it was my refutation only that for example purposes it might be; so any leaping is on your side of the fence. Here again you simply show intolerance for any kind of refutation because you simply label it 'cognitive dissonance' or and other label that comes to mind.

Yes-- and folks have challenged it, and gave you an actual methodology in which to subject this type of book research and to the test and you outright rejected it as suitable for your purposes. again can only be classified under

The only shot at a methodology I have seen is a video posted by Uthman where there is a long, detailed and comprehensive discussion of the literary qualities of the Qu'ran and I shall post some comments on that shortly. I cannot recall anyone outlining a methodology for uncovering scientific miracles in the Qu'ran.

This isn't really about 'scientific miracles' in the Quran it is about the Quran as a whole, just glancing at the mere title of the thread. A few pages back, I have stated as much, the Quran isn't a book of science it is a book of signs, whose verses aren't at odds with science (as such any book that claims divine origin) should always be transcendent with the times if it is directed to all people throughout all the ages.

I agree its not about the Qu'ran its about claims made about the Qu'ran and my view is that these claims are mostly a accepted without challenge and that is what the thread is about.

 

[جوري]

I gave examples so there were no assumptions just an illustration to make my question as clear as I could. I never claimed it was my refutation only that for example purposes it might be; so any leaping is on your side of the fence. Here again you simply show intolerance for any kind of refutation because you simply label it 'cognitive dissonance' or and other label that comes to mind.

What is the purpose of giving examples with no value to the topic?
Forget about my ''intolerance''-- you waste much of this thread on your feelings than contents written as direct reply to your alleged 'challenges' ''The mountains will labor, a ridiculous mouse will be born''
How about addressing Br. Muhammad's last post?

The only shot at a methodology I have seen is a video posted by Uthman where there is a long, detailed and comprehensive discussion of the literary qualities of the Qu'ran and I shall post some comments on that shortly. I cannot recall anyone outlining a methodology for uncovering scientific miracles in the Qu'ran.

You switched the topic to 'Quranic miracle' only for failure to properly refute all else (there is plenty more in these 12 pages than one post by Br. Uthman' It is again a matter of what you are willing to acknowledge to suit your purposes for this thread further, I believe in my very last post I stated:

''A few pages back, I have stated as much, the Quran isn't a book of science it is a book of signs, whose verses aren't at odds with science (as such any book that claims divine origin) should always be transcendent with the times if it is directed to all people throughout all the ages.''

Why do pick apart that which you can while ignoring all else?

I agree its not about the Qu'ran its about claims made about the Qu'ran and my view is that these claims are mostly a accepted without challenge and that is what the thread is about.

I doubt the majority of Muslims merely accept without a challenge... And I'll be waiting to see how you will refute what Br. Muhammad wrote above without finding some byway to comment superficially on some tangential note rather than the entire content!


all the best

 

[Hugo]

I would just like to change the direction of discussion a little and pose the same kind of question but in a slightly oblique fashion. For me its is what a book say that is of importance, its message, its recounting of what God has to say. Now I have looked at a lot of the supposed scientific miracles claimed for the Qu'ran but these miracles to me raise all sorts of other difficulties so some questions (I would suggest to keep post short you just comment on one at a time)

1. I cannot find a case where the explanation if that is the right word makes any difference or adds anything to the meaning of the verse.

2. If there is let's call it extra meaning then it was hidden even from your most pious forefathers and one presumes there might be things hidden from us. That would mean that sharia must be deficient because the forefathers could not have been in possession of all the facts.

3. Just a though but I wondered if every cited supposed miracle is evident in both Arabic and say English or German or whatever. When I compare several English translation often the miracle 'disappears' in one or other of them.

A supplementary question here that puzzles me is that if the Qu'ran is a miracle in Arabic why does it fall short in that it is not of such a quality that it can be translated perfectly and preserve all the literary distinctiveness?

4. I wonder why God would bury such ideas in the Qu'ran so that for most of its existence they were unknown and if it is true then the Qu'ran can never be a final revelation because we can never know if other things are buried there. If they are just assurances we have the same issue that roughly 14 centuries passed without such assurances so why give them now?

 

[Hugo]

What is the purpose of giving examples with no value to the topic? Forget about my ''intolerance''-- you waste much of this thread on your feelings than contents written as direct reply to your alleged 'challenges' ''The mountains will labor, a ridiculous mouse will be born''
How about addressing Br. Muhammad's last post?

all the best

Let's end this part of the debate and my plain position is that none of the supposed miracles can be refuted because none of them are falsifiable. That is if you say a verse about thunder in the heavens is the big bang it cannot be refuted because to do so we would have to consult God and ask - "did you hide this meaning in the verse" and obviously we cannot do that. You can still believe it of course but it can never be proved.

 

[جوري]

Let's end this part of the debate and my plain position is that none of the supposed miracles can be refuted because none of them are falsifiable. That is if you say a verse about thunder in the heavens is the big bang it cannot be refuted because to do so we would have to consult God and ask - "did you hide this meaning in the verse" and obviously we cannot do that. You can still believe it of course but it can never be proved.

What is your question?

 

[Predator]

I always remove lines to save space. .

Oh really , How much of space of space would you have saved . You didnt have a problem quoting other posts .

It has been banned where exactly in South Africa?

It was banned in the country of south africa ,thats all i know .

so your suggestion that I want to hide it is an absurd one

Well by tradition ,even disgraced reverend Jimmy Swaggart when challenged to read those dirty verses ,played a trick on the audience, hiding it and reading from king james version instead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768HH1-Iu2s At 6:05

Your book is making people ashamed or scared of reading it If those words were not profane , then Swaggart would not be ashamed to read that version infront of the audience. And this is what aroused my suspicions that you were ignoring it , christians are ashamed of reading those verses .If it was the word of god, then people would not be ashamed of it. Are people holier than god , that they dare not utter these words but God almight uttered it

So now you have decided what God should or should not say and to suggest that these are text book examples is such a monstrous lie that one has to question your own motives in this.

Why would god then put these words in the bible which people have been ashamed to read and dont want children to read ?
Shouldnt a book of god be so pure , so that it can be read by anyone regardless of their age . Thus the example proves to you how superior the Quran is over your bible where all its verses can be read without shame or controversies unlike the Bible which find itself in the Stop Public Pornography (SPP) movement

http://www.nobeliefs.com/spp.htm

Do you think that incest does not occur in Muslim lands or homosexuals are not found amongst the Muslim population in the same proportion as it is everywhere else

It can happen but the numbers are very negligible . For eg: if you Compare the stats of US with saudi arabia which follows shariah laws strictly , and see how low the numbers are in saudi of any crime , let alone incest .

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Hugo,

For me its is what a book say that is of importance, its message, its recounting of what God has to say.

I don't think anyone in this thread has disagreed on this point with regards to the Qur'an. In the list of miraculous aspects of the Qur'an I gave earlier, a few of them focused on the message of the Qur'an. Also, I'd like to quote what Br. Ansar once mentioned regarding the miraculous nature of the Qur'an, and he too mentions the Qur'anic message as being a key feature.

I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer as to why the Qur'an is regarded the way it is by so many people.

1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:

-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.​

2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:

-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.​

3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:

-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text. As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.​

This is just my summary of the miraculous features Muslims find in the Qur'an.

1. I cannot find a case where the explanation if that is the right word makes any difference or adds anything to the meaning of the verse.

Well if we are talking about scientific facts here, the main point is that they are in conformity with modern science and could not have been known at the time the Qur'an was revealed.

2. If there is let's call it extra meaning then it was hidden even from your most pious forefathers and one presumes there might be things hidden from us. That would mean that sharia must be deficient because the forefathers could not have been in possession of all the facts.

The only thing we're talking about here is science, because in this age it is believed we are more scientifically advanced than previous nations and can perhaps appreciate scientific references at a deeper level. But this is not crucial to the guidance of the Qur'an. Things like the Shariah are what the Qur'an came to explain, and therefore they are much more explicit and detailed and best understood by the early generations. Nothing that is necessary for the guidance of Muslims has been left out in the Qur'an or failed to be explained by the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

This is why the scientific miracles are arguably more subjective because the Qur'an is not a book intended to primarily discuss that. However, other aspects are much more concrete.

3. Just a though but I wondered if every cited supposed miracle is evident in both Arabic and say English or German or whatever. When I compare several English translation often the miracle 'disappears' in one or other of them.

A supplementary question here that puzzles me is that if the Qu'ran is a miracle in Arabic why does it fall short in that it is not of such a quality that it can be translated perfectly and preserve all the literary distinctiveness?

I'm not really sure what kind of miracles you are referring to in the first part of this question, but regarding the second bit - surely whenever you translate something from one language to another, there will always be things lost in translation. Each language has its own features and grammatical rules etc, therefore it isn't possible to preserve the exact meaning and effect from one to the other. Note that understanding the Qur'an in other languages is one thing, and preserving its literary distinctiveness in those languages is another. Br. Ansar has touched on this elsewhere:

I'd like to comment on what was mentioned regarding the Qur'an being revealed in arabic. The fact that the Qur'an's message is universal and transcends culture, nationality and ethnicity is not in any way negated by its revelation in a specific language. The message of Islam can be expounded and explained (and it indeed is) in any language. While it is true that knowledge of the arabic language is necessary for Islamic scholarship and a more complete appreciation of the Qur'an's miraculous beauty, this is not necessary for the basic practice of Islam and more importantly, anyone can learn arabic if they have the resources and invest a moderate amount of time and effort! Some of the greatest scholars of Islam have been non-arabs.
[...]
Yes, people born speaking the arabic language do have a certain advantage in gaining understanding of the religion, but how is that advantage any different from an individual who has the opportunity and financial resources to go to an Islamic University over an individual who does not?? Moreover, most arabs don't even have that great of an advantage since the arabic of the Qur'an is still not the same as the street dialects of arabs and still requires a certain amount of learning irrespective of whether the student is arab or not. So whether you know arabic or not, nothing changes in terms of your capacity to learn and implement the religion and that is what you will ultimately be held accountable for.

I think I've already covered what you mentioned in point 4...

Regards.

 

[MSalman]

For me its is what a book say that is of importance, its message, its recounting of what God has to say.

Let's not play hide and seek games please. Just put it simply, you wanna attack certain fiqhi issues in the Qur'an. If you come out cleanly and put forward everything you got then I can assure you that it would make everyone's life little bit easier and discussion could be more beneficial.

1. I cannot find a case where the explanation if that is the right word makes any difference or adds anything to the meaning of the verse.

off course it does make a difference - the experts in the field can explain the meaning more accurately and profoundly in light of other text because a person who is not expert doesn't know about everything; thus, he can misunderstand the meaning. Adding anything or taking away anything from the actual meaning is a heresy in Islam.

2. If there is let's call it extra meaning then it was hidden even from your most pious forefathers and one presumes there might be things hidden from us. That would mean that sharia must be deficient because the forefathers could not have been in possession of all the facts.

Your case has a leg to stand if it is pertaining to laws but you cannot find a single case. Bad luck! Everything pretianing to laws has been fully and correctly understood by the companions of Allah's Messenger (sal-allahu alahyhi wa sallam) and they passed it down.

3. Just a though but I wondered if every cited supposed miracle is evident in both Arabic and say English or German or whatever. When I compare several English translation often the miracle 'disappears' in one or other of them.

that is why the Qur'an is in Arabic so that its orginal meaning is not lost or not twisted due to deficiency of the language.

4. I wonder why God would bury such ideas in the Qu'ran so that for most of its existence they were unknown and if it is true then the Qu'ran can never be a final revelation because we can never know if other things are buried there. If they are just assurances we have the same issue that roughly 14 centuries passed without such assurances so why give them now?

well too bad this is not the case. now what, will you accept the Qur'an?

 

[Hugo]

Oh really , How much of space of space would you have saved. You didnt have a problem quoting other posts .

It is very common to edit out parts of messages to save space and come to the point more quickly - do you have an issue with that?

It was banned in the country of south africa ,thats all i know .

This is not much to go on is it? There are several million Christians in SA and it sounds very doubtful that they all tear out bits that you don't like. The Biblical portions you mention have been in print or available for perhaps as long as 3,000 years. In Africa it is available in 121 different languages alone and in English there are almost 60 different translations and for Asiatics its is available in about 180 different languages etc. It is almost impossible to estimate how many Bibles are printed each years because almost every publisher in the world offers several different translations and in multiple formats.

The Bible never hides sin but make it plain and if we take the Ezekiel 23 portion you mention it is absolutely clearly an allegory that is intended to show the sinfulness of sin. The notion of describing falling away from God as prostitution is used several times in the Bible and the message is clear to anyone that what is being described is that turning from God is the greatest sin of all. Do you think God should never mention sin or when he does he should not be specific about it?

If one considers the Qu'ran we read in 44:43 of people dragged into hell, pouring scalding water (in other places it is described as being as hot as molten brass) down peoples throats - is that suitable for children? That is immediately followed by the righteous being wed to dark eyed houris (more than one) how will you explain that to children? Is all this literal or it is metaphorical?

Your book is making people ashamed or scared of reading it If those words were not profane , then Swaggart would not be ashamed to read that version infront of the audience. And this is what aroused my suspicions that you were ignoring it , christians are ashamed of reading those verses .If it was the word of god, then people would not be ashamed of it. Are people holier than god , that they dare not utter these words but God almight uttered it

This is frankly, rubbish. The Bible is plain as to what sin and wickedness is but it also has verses such as Colossians 3 (NIV) - Rules for Holy Living and no one can find fault with what they say except a mind that is itself corrupted.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free... Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Why would god then put these words in the bible which people have been ashamed to read and dont want children to read ?

The verses are there as warnings of the dire consequences of sin - why do you think the Qu'ran mentions 'scalding water poured over someone head continually' - do you think it is supposed to be nice to read and make you feel comfortable?

It can happen but the numbers are very negligible. For eg: if you Compare the stats of US with saudi arabia which follows shariah laws strictly, and see how low the numbers are in saudi of any crime, let alone incest .

I think you may be living in a dream world: a recent BBC documentary estimated that the number of female prostitutes in Tehran alone was 100,000 - so do you think they all walk around in mini-skirts? In Saudi Arabia homosexual activity is described as 'predatory'... do I need to go on? The moment you start saying that your society is free from sin you are on a downward spiral. You see laws do nothing on their own and its is personal righteousness that is what we strive for.

 

[Hugo]

Let's not play hide and seek games please. Just put it simply, you wanna attack certain fiqhi issues in the Qur'an. If you come out cleanly and put forward everything you got then I can assure you that it would make everyone's life little bit easier and discussion could be more beneficial.

How is it playing hide and seek or an attack on fiqhi issues if I simply state what I believe - or is that now allowed?

off course it does make a difference - the experts in the field can explain the meaning more accurately and profoundly in light of other text because a person who is not expert doesn't know about everything; thus, he can misunderstand the meaning. Adding anything or taking away anything from the actual meaning is a heresy in Islam.

Reading this I don't think you even understood my post and so this wastes time. If tomorrow someone discovers a supposed scientific miracle in the Qu'ran - then I am asking how does it help in understanding that verses. That is a legitmase question is it not?

Your case has a leg to stand if it is pertaining to laws but you cannot find a single case. Bad luck! Everything pretianing to laws has been fully and correctly understood by the companions of Allah's Messenger (sal-allahu alahyhi wa sallam) and they passed it down.

You are right I could not find a single case where a supposed scientific miracle helped (me) in understanding what a verse meant - you here confirm that neither can you. Indeed what you say is illogical, if there was something 'extra' in a verse such as a scientific miracle THEN the companions could NOT have fully understood it could they?.

 

[MSalman]

as usual, you are displaying your reading comprehension problems and attacking with straw man.

How is it playing hide and seek or an attack on fiqhi issues if I simply state what I believe - or is that now allowed?

when did I say what you simply state is an attack on fiqhi issues or you are not allowed to do that? Please go back and read my comment in full context.

just in case, if you haven't realized, I am salman from isalmic-life and I know who you are. So I can predict direction of your argument from your simple points.

Reading this I don't think you even understood my post and so this wastes time. If tomorrow someone discovers a supposed scientific miracle in the Qu'ran - then I am asking how does it help in understanding that verses. That is a legitmase question is it not?

I was under the impression that you are talking about generality and not specific cases. So yes, I may have misunderstood your statement however I never said that your question is illegitimate. I was simply saying that an explanation of a verse doesn't add or takes away anything from its original meaning. But it seems you are asking from a different angle:

It does make a difference in sense that we understand the verse better. It simply means that we lacked certain factors and tools to fully recognize and understand the sign which Allah has given to us.

The Qur'an is not a science book so the scholars are not going to explain the Qur'an whit scientific mind set. Plus, much of it depends on how much knowledge we have about science. Hence, many of these sorts of things can be missed. So if the earlier scholars didn't make a tafsir which would explain a verse in accordance with a scientific discovery this doesn't mean that the new explanation is wrong or we are trying to show the Qur'an has scientific discoveries.

The other reason is that many of earlier explanations of particular verses work hand in hand with newer explanation. Why? because the earlier scholars already explained it correctly but it was never emphasized as the discoveries were never made and the societies were never focus on issues related to scientific discoveries. Many of the ayaat were understood perfectly by the companions and other mufasireen and they explained the scientific knowledge Allah has given us.

You are right I could not find a single case where a supposed scientific miracle helped (me) in understanding what a verse meant - you here confirm that neither can you.

we are not on the same page. go back and read carefully

Indeed what you say is illogical, if there was something 'extra' in a verse such as a scientific miracle THEN the companions could NOT have fully understood it could they?.

illogical to those who cannot understand certain things and try not to and then mix up issues. yes, but how does this prove that the Shari'ah is deficient? Remember this is the argument you made! Shari'ah is a law governering an entire life of humans. Scientific knowledge in the Qur'an is a sign from Allah for humans to recognize the divinity of Islam and His Own existence.

Can you know see the difference between the two?

 

[Hugo]

I was under the impression that you are talking about generality and not specific cases. So yes, I may have misunderstood your statement however I never said that your question is illegitimate. I was simply saying that an explanation of a verse doesn't add or takes away anything from its original meaning. But it seems you are asking from a different angle:

It does make a difference in sense that we understand the verse better. It simply means that we lacked certain factors and tools to fully recognize and understand the sign which Allah has given to us.

Ok, but I would have thought the explanation of a verse was its meaning but that may be just semantics. The Biblical view and I think the Islamic view is that there is ONLY ONE meaning in any verse; to use your words 'the original meaning' but of course there may be many applications since circumstances to which it applied, may have changed.

But you cannot have it both ways. Either the Islamic early scholars understood the verse or they did not and if one accepts that a particular scientific miracle as valid then the early fathers could not have had a full understanding if it adds meaning and must have in your words 'lacked the tools'. For what its worth I do not think it possible to establish any of the supposed scientific miracles as hidden there by God because to do that we would have to ask God and that cannot be done.

The Qur'an is not a science book so the scholars are not going to explain the Qur'an whit scientific mind set. Plus, much of it depends on how much knowledge we have about science. Hence, many of these sorts of things can be missed. So if the earlier scholars didn't make a tafsir which would explain a verse in accordance with a scientific discovery this doesn't mean that the new explanation is wrong or we are trying to show the Qur'an has scientific discoveries.

Interesting point for it is possible that the the explanation we have now of some bit if science may be shown later to be invalid and therefore some supposed miracle may in fact be wrong hence showing the Qu'ran to be in errors. The point is that if one start saying that the revelation is progressive as you seem to imply here we land in all sorts of hot water.

The other reason is that many of earlier explanations of particular verses work hand in hand with newer explanation. Why? because the earlier scholars already explained it correctly but it was never emphasized as the discoveries were never made and the societies were never focus on issues related to scientific discoveries. Many of the ayaat were understood perfectly by the companions and other mufasireen and they explained the scientific knowledge Allah has given us.

You seem to be going round in circles - first we have 'explained correctly' then 'many of the ... perfectly' implying that many were not so that cast a shadow on the understanding of your pious forefathers. Why don't you take one of these supposed scientific miracles and show how it help explain a verse and give us lets call it the older explanation for comparison?

illogical to those who cannot understand certain things and try not to and then mix up issues. yes, but how does this prove that the Shari'ah is deficient? Remember this is the argument you made! Shari'ah is a law governering an entire life of humans. Scientific knowledge in the Qur'an is a sign from Allah for humans to recognize the divinity of Islam and His Own existence.

There are logical problems here: if the miracles enhance the meaning then your pious forefathers who generated sharia were NOT in possession of all the facts and therefore MAY have drawn different conclusions. If you say they are signs then we have a God who decided to hide them from early generations and logically there must still be some who are hidden from us that means we can never know God's final revelation.

These are ONLY problems if you start claiming that hidden in the Qu'ran are all sorts of scientific miracles. I exclude here two things: the literary merit argument because that has not changed and possible predictions.

 

[Predator]

It is very common to edit out parts of messages to save space and come to the point more quickly - do you have an issue with that?

I couldnt understand how half a line of words is a big high resolution pic that was eating up space and bandwidth that you chose to remove it. I didnt have a problem . You had a problem and wanted to conserve space .

This is not much to go on is it? There are several million Christians in SA and it sounds very doubtful that they all tear out bits that you don't like.

Its not about me . You need to ask yourself a question . If those are the glorous words of god ,why are you christians yourselves having trouble reading it or giving to your children and other like George bernard shaw call it the most dangerous book on earth , WHY ????

George Bernard Shaw said, "THE MOST DANGEROUS BOOK (the Bible) ON EARTH, KEEP IT UNDER LOCK AND KEY." Keep the Bible out of your children's reach.

"Reading Bible stories to children can also open up all sorts of opportunities to discuss the morality of sex. AN UNEXPURGATED BIBLE MIGHT GET AN X-RATING FROM SOME CENSORS," (The Plain Truth October 1977)[Jehova's Witnesses'

Do you think God should never mention sin or when he does he should not be specific about it?

God has mentioned sin but not with disgusting language that it gest banned in a country and makes christians themselves ashamed to read or give it to their children and get banned isnt worthy of being the word of god . The "wh0redoms" of the two sisters, Aholah and Aholibah and The sexual details here puts to shame even the unexpurgated edition of many banned books. Ask your "born again" Christian visitors, underwhat category will they classify all this lewdness? Such filth belongs to X-rated erotic book and certainly has no place in any "Book of God."

If one considers the Qu'ran we read in 44:43 of people dragged into hell, pouring scalding water (in other places it is described as being as hot as molten brass) down peoples throats - is that suitable for children?

The verses are there as warnings of the dire consequences of sin but there is no X rated language used unlike your bible

That is immediately followed by the righteous being wed to dark eyed houris (more than one) how will you explain that to children?

Where is the filthy and disgusting language in that verse unlike the loads of filth

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org/christianity/232-pornography-book-god.html

in the bible

The moment you start saying that your society is free from sin you are on a downward spiral. You see laws do nothing on their own and its is personal righteousness that is what we strive for

Who said that crime never happens in muslim countries ? go back and read the post . you cant prove that America has a lower crime rate than saudi arabia .

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-lowest-murder-rates.html

I just said that Saudi have the lowest rate of crime because of the laws, and when apply this is your western countries like usa and the crime rate will go down

 

[Hugo]

Its not about me. You need to ask yourself a question. If those are the glorious words of god ,why are you christians yourselves having trouble reading it or giving to your children and other like George bernard shaw call it the most dangerous book on earth , WHY ????

If you take any trouble at all with your research you will find 100's of people have called it a 'dangerous book' and the same goes for the Qu'ran. You mention Shaw but he said the Bible is a dangerous book but he also at the same time said "but so is giving someone a rifle" so his meaning is plain, it is not the thing itself that is dangerous but how it is used, how it is interpreted and that like anything else can be misused. One can use the Bible to justify Holy war and you can do the same with the Qu'ran as we know from the 9/11 murderes - am I to blame the Qu'ran for that? The Bible is not banned in say the UAE or IRAN or Parkistan?

If I look at the verses you cited it amounts to less than 0.1% of the Bible so in your research you ignored almost everything and selected a few lurid sounding verses or parts of verses and took them completely out of context - why did you do that, what kind of honest evaluation is that?

God has mentioned sin but not with disgusting language that it gets banned in a country and makes Christians themselves ashamed to read or give it to their children and get banned isnt worthy of being the word of god.

You say its disgusting language but understood correctly it is stating the truth either plainly or by means of allegory. For example, Michael Marcavage may be sent to prison for opposing homosexuals in public office and showing that is ungodly by reading a passage from the Bible that mentions them - would you support him or not?

What for you is disgusting language - the Qu'ran use the words rape, prostitute, adultery, kill (133 times) etc and talks of scalding water poured on someone head. Do you think it is supposed to be seen as 'nice' and 'lovely language' when it talks of these things do you think we are supposed to feel comfortable when we hear about such things?

The "wh0redoms" of the two sisters, Aholah and Aholibah and The sexual details here puts to shame even the unexpurgated edition of many banned books. Ask your "born again" Christian visitors, underwhat category will they classify all this lewdness? Such filth belongs to X-rated erotic book and certainly has no place in any "Book of God."

Here is just show you have not bothered to actually read the section because if you did you would know that the two sisters are clearly stated as being Jerusalem and Samaria - not people at all so its speaking of a debased and debauched nation and pointing out their wickedness and the dread consequences that come from it - no one, no one could read that passage as recommending sin.

The verses are there as warnings of the dire consequences of sin but there is no X rated language used unlike your bible

In your view, I might regard talking about houris or killing people as x-rated. If the Qu'ran does not speak plainly about sin then it is not a complete revelation is it - one cannot speak about sin strongly and be expected to do it in nice and comfortable words - a task for you; were does the qu'ran speak about homosexuality and is there anything anywhere is Islam that you would not want to read out loud to your daughter or mother or sister?

Who said that crime never happens in muslim countries? go back and read the post. you cant prove that America has a lower crime rate than saudi arabia. I just said that Saudi have the lowest rate of crime because of the laws, and when apply this is your western countries like usa and the crime rate will go down.

I gave you statistics because it is clear you imply things are better under sharia but the facts don't seem to support that view.

 

[Hugo]

I don't think anyone in this thread has disagreed on this point with regards to the Qur'an. In the list of miraculous aspects of the Qur'an I gave earlier, a few of them focused on the message of the Qur'an. Also, I'd like to quote what Br. Ansar once mentioned regarding the miraculous nature of the Qur'an, and he too mentions the Qur'anic message as being a key feature.

I will comment on the quotation in your post and the video posted early by Uthman a little later as the video is long and detailed and I need to make notes. In terms of the literary merit of the Qu'ran then I am sure it is as you say but I suppose my position would be that at least in my view other books have similar merit and secondly, I cannot see in any strict logical sense that it follows it must be from God.

Well if we are talking about scientific facts here, the main point is that they are in conformity with modern science and could not have been known at the time the Qur'an was revealed. The only thing we're talking about here is science, because in this age it is believed we are more scientifically advanced than previous nations and can perhaps appreciate scientific references at a deeper level. But this is not crucial to the guidance of the Qur'an.

This I would more or less agree with though I have difficulty seeing why God would hide things and in general I have not see anything that I would regard as a miraculous insert. But I think your position is the only logical one that whether these are scientific miracles or not it has no bearing in meaning because otherwise all sorts of consequences and objections arise so of which I outlined.

I'm not really sure what kind of miracles you are referring to in the first part of this question, but regarding the second bit - surely whenever you translate something from one language to another, there will always be things lost in translation. Each language has its own features and grammatical rules etc, therefore it isn't possible to preserve the exact meaning and effect from one to the other. Note that understanding the Qur'an in other languages is one thing, and preserving its literary distinctiveness in those languages is another. Br. Ansar has touched on this elsewhere:

I am sure this is right and my comment was a conjecture that one might have had a greater miracles if it was totally translatable. There is something called the "spotlighting" where a situation or thing can be interpreted to suit ones feelings. For example, Jesus was said to have been crucified between two people and some have said that even in death he was at the centre but if he had been placed at the end of the line the changes to be an example of how God suffered.

So here if the Qu'ran had not be literary excellent then some would have found another way to explain its uniqueness. The whole point of this is that we must be careful not to associate interpolate or extrapolate meaning with events or things or if we do it needs a lot of care.

 

[جوري]

I will comment on the quotation in your post and the video posted early by Uthman a little later as the video is long and detailed and I need to make notes. In terms of the literary merit of the Qu'ran then I am sure it is as you say but I suppose my position would be that at least in my view other books have similar merit and secondly, I cannot see in any strict logical sense that it follows it must be from God.

Well if we are talking about scientific facts here, the main point is that they are in conformity with modern science and could not have been known at the time the Qur'an was revealed. The only thing we're talking about here is science, because in this age it is believed we are more scientifically advanced than previous nations and can perhaps appreciate scientific references at a deeper level. But this is not crucial to the guidance of the Qur'an.

This I would more or less agree with though I have difficulty seeing why God would hide things and in general I have not see anything that I would regard as a miraculous insert. But I think your position is the only logical one that whether these are scientific miracles or not it has no bearing in meaning because otherwise all sorts of consequences and objections arise so of which I outlined.



I am sure this is right and my comment was a conjecture that one might have had a greater miracles if it was totally translatable. There is something called the "spotlighting" where a situation or thing can be interpreted to suit ones feelings. For example, Jesus was said to have been crucified between two people and some have said that even in death he was at the centre but if he had been placed at the end of the line the changes to be an example of how God suffered.

So here if the Qu'ran had not be literary excellent then some would have found another way to explain its uniqueness. The whole point of this is that we must be careful not to associate interpolate or extrapolate meaning with events or things or if we do it needs a lot of care.

I think this will truly take care of all the queries you keep on raising!

all the best

The Amazing Qur'an
by Gary Miller
Calling the Qur'an amazing is not something done only by Muslims, who have an appreciation for the book and who are pleased with it; it has been labeled amazing by
non-Muslims as well. In fact, even people who hate Islam very much have still called it amazing.
Assumption of the people about the Qur'an
One thing which surprises non Muslims who are examining the book very closely is that the Qur'an does not appear to them to be what they expected. What they assume is that they have an old book which came fourteen centuries ago from the Arabian Desert; and
they expect that the book should look something like that - an old book from the desert. And then they find out that it does not resemble what they expected at all. Additionally, one of the first things that some people assume is that because it is an old
book which comes from the desert, it should talk about the desert. Well the Qur'an does talk about the desert - some of its imagery describes the desert; but it also talks about the sea - what it's like to be in a storm on the sea.Some years ago, the story came to us in Toronto about a man who was in the merchant marine and made his living on the sea. A Muslim gave him a translation of the Qur'an to read. The merchant marine knew nothing about the history of Islam but was interested in reading the Qur'an. When he finished reading it, he brought it back to the Muslim and asked, "This Muhammad was he a sailor?" He was impressed at how accurately the
Qur'an describes a storm on a sea. When he was told, "No as a matter of fact, Muhammad lived in the desert," that was enough for him. He embraced Islam on the spot. He was so impressed with the Qur'an's description because he had been in a storm on the sea, and he
knew that whoever had written that description had also been in a storm on the sea. The description of "a wave, over it a wave, over it clouds" was not what someone imagining a storm on a sea to be like would have written; rather, it was written by someone who knew what a storm on the sea was like. This is one example of how the Qur'an is not tied to a
certain place and time. Certainly, the scientific ideas expressed in it also do not seem to originate from the desert fourteen centuries ago.
The theory of an atomMany centuries before the onset of Muhammad's Prophethood, there was a well-known
theory of atomism advanced by the Greek philosopher, Democritus. He and the people who came after him assumed that matter consists of tiny, indestructible, indivisible particles called atoms. The Arabs too, used to deal in the same concept; in fact, the Arabic word "dharrah" commonly referred to the smallest particle known to man. Now, modern science has discovered that this smallest unit of matter (i.e., the atom, which has all of the same properties as its element) can be split into its component parts.
This is a new idea, a development of the last century; yet, interestingly enough, this information had already been documented in the Qur'an which states: "He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom's weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..."
Undoubtedly, fourteen centuries ago that statement would have looked unusual, even to an Arab. For him, the dharrah was the smallest thing there was. Indeed, this is proof, that the Qur'an is not outdated. Health and medicine Another example of what one might expect to find in an "old book" that touches upon the subject of health or medicine is outdated remedies or cures. Various historical sources state that the Prophet gave some advice about health and hygiene, yet most of these pieces of advice are not contained in the Qur'an. At first glance, to the non-Muslims this
appears to be a negligent omission. They cannot understand why Allah would not
"include" such helpful information in the Qur'an. Some Muslims attempt to explain this absence with the following argument: "Although the Prophet's advice was sound and applicable to the time in which he lived, Allah, in His infinite wisdom, knew that there would come later medical and scientific advances which would make the Prophet's advice appear outdated. When later discoveries occurred, people might say that such information contradicted that which the Prophet had given. Thus, since Allah would
never allow any opportunity for the non-Muslims to claim that the Qur'an contradicts itself or the teachings of the Prophet, He only included in the Qur'an information and examples which could stand the test of time."
However, when one examines the true realities of the Qur'an in terms of its existence as a divine revelation, the entire matter is quickly brought into its proper perspective, and the error in such argumentation becomes clear and understandable. It must be understood that the Qur'an is a divine revela tion, and as such, all information in it is of divine origin. Allah revealed the Qur'an from Himself. It is the words of Allah, which existed before
creation, and thus nothing can be added, subtracted or altered. In essence, the Qur'an existed and was complete before the creation of Prophet Muhammad, so it could not possibly contain any of the Prophet's own words or advice. An inclusion of such information would clearly contradict the purpose for which the Qur'an exists, compromise its authority and render it inauthentic as a divine revelation. Consequently, there was no "home remedies" in the Qur'an which one could claim to be outdated; nor does it contain any man's view about what is beneficial to health, what food is best to eat, or what will cure this or that disease. In fact, the Qur'an only mentions one item dealing with medical treatment, and it is not in dispute by anyone. It states that in honey there is
healing. And certainly, I do not think that there is anyone who will argue with that! If one assumes that the Qur'an is the product of a man's mind, then one would expect it to reflect some of what was going on in the mind of the man who "composed" it. In fact, certain encyclopedias and various books clam that the Qur'an was the product of hallucinations that Muhammad underwent. If these claims are true - if it indeed originated
from some psychological problems in Muhammad's mind - then evidence of this would be apparent in the Qur'an. Is there such evidence? In order to determine whether or not there is, one must first identify what things would have been going on in his mind at that time and then search for these thoughts and reflections in the Qur'an. The Revelation
It is common knowledge that Muhammad had a very difficult life. All of his daughters died before him except one, and he had a wife of several years who was dear and important to him, who not only preceded him in death at a very critical period of his life. As a matter of fact, she must have been quite a woman because when the first revelation came to him, he ran home to her afraid. Certainly, even today one would have a hard time
trying to find an Arab who would tell you, "I was so afraid that I ran home to my wife." They just aren't that way. Yet Muhammad felt comfortable enough with his wife to be
able to do that. That's how influential and strong woman she was. Although these
examples are only a few of the subjects that would have been on Muhammad's mind, they
are sufficient in intensity to prove my point. The Qur'an does not mention any of these
things - not the death of his children, not the death of his beloved companion and wife,
not his fear of the initial revelations, which he so beautifully shared with his wife -
nothing; yet, these topics must have hurt him, bothered him, and caused him pain and
grief during periods of his psychological reflections, then these subjects, as well as
others, would be prevalent or at least mentioned throughout. A truly scientific approach
to the Qur'an is possible because the Qur'an offers something that is not offered by other
religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists
demand. Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the
universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does
not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific
community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, "If you have theory, do not
bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are
wrong or not."
Such a test was exactly why the scientific community listened to Einstein towards the
beginning of the century. He came with a new theory and said, "I believe the universe
works like this; and here are three ways to prove whether I am wrong!" So the scientific
community subjected his theory to the tests, and within six years it passed all three. Of
course, this does not prove that he was great, but it proves that he deserved to be listened
to because he said, "This is my idea; and if you want to try to prove me wrong, do this or
try that." This is exactly what the Qur'an has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that
they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, "If this
book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that
it is false." Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do "This or this or this," and
thus it is still considered true and authentic. I suggest to you that the next time you get
into dispute with someone about Islam and he claims that he has the truth and that you
are in darkness, you leave all other arguments at first and make this suggestion. Ask him,
"Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that
would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?" Well, I can
promise right now that people will not have anything - no test, no proof, nothing! This is
because they do not carry around the idea that they should not only present what they
believe but should also offer others a chance to prove they're wrong. However, Islam
does that. A perfect example of how Islam provides man with a chance to verify its
authenticity and "prove it wrong" occurs in the 4th chapter. And quiet honestly, I was
surprised when I first discovered this challenge. It states:
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would
surely have found therein much discrepancy."
The challenge to non-Muslims
This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As
a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual
presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is
inconsistent with man's personality. One doesn't take an exam in school after finishing
the exam; write a note to the instructor at the end saying, "This exam is perfect. There are
no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!" One just doesn't do that. The teacher would not
sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Qur'an approaches people.
Another interesting attitude that exists in the Qur'an repeatedly deals with its advice to
the reader. The Qur'an informs that reader about different facts and then gives the advice:
"If you want to know more about this or that, or if you doubt what is said, then you
should ask those who have knowledge." This too is a surprising attitude. It is not usual to
have a book that comes from someone without training in geography, botany, biology,
etc., who discusses these subjects and then advises the reader to ask men of knowledge if
he doubts anything.
Yet in every age there have been Muslims who have followed the advice of the Qur'an
and made surprising discoveries. If one looks to the works of Muslim scientists in many
centuries ago, one will find them full of quotations from the Qur'an. These works state
that they did research in such a place, looking for something. And the y affirm that the
reason they looked in such and such a place was that the Qur'an pointed them in that
direction. For example, the Qur'an mentions man's origin and then tells the reader,
"Research it!" It gives the reader a hint where to look and then states that one should find
out more about it. This is the kind of thing that Muslims today largely seem to overlook -
but not always, as illustrated in the following example. A few years ago, a group of men
in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia collected all if the verses in the Qur'an which discuss
embryology - the growth of the human being in the womb. They said, "Here is what the
Qur'an says. Is it the truth?" In essence, they took the advice of the Qur'an: "Ask the men
who know." They chose, as it happened, a non-Muslim who is a professor of embryology
at the University of Toronto. His name is Keith Moore, and he is the author of textbooks
on embryology - a world expert on the subject. They invited him to Riyadh and said,
"This is what the Qur'an says about your subject. Is it true? What can you tell us?" While
he was in Riyadh, they gave him all of the help that he needed in translation and all of the
cooperation for which he asked. And he was so surprised at what he found that he
changed his textbooks. In fact, in the second edition of one of his books, called before we
are born... in the second edition about the history of embryology, he included some
material that was not in the first edition because of what he found in the Qur'an. Truly
this illustrates that the Qur'an was ahead of its time and that those who believe in the
Qur'an know what other people do not know.
Interview with Dr. Keith Moore
I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Keith Moore for a television presentation, and we
talked a great deal about this - it was illustrated by slides and so on. He mentioned that
some of the things that the Qur'an states about the growth of the human being were not
known until thirty years ago. In fact, he said that one item in particular - the Qur'an's
description of the human being as a "leech- like clot" ('alaqah) at one stage - was new to
him; but when he checked on it, he found that it was true, and so he added it to his book.
He said, "I never thought of that before," and he went to the zoology department and
asked for a picture of a leech. When he found that it looked just like the human embryo,
he decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. Dr. Moore also wrote a book
on clinical embryology, and when he presented this information in Toronto, it caused
quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the news papers
across Canada, and some of the headlines were quite funny. For instance, one headline
read:
"SURPRISING THING FOUND IN ANCIENT BOOK!" It seems obvious from this
example that people do not clearly understand what it is all about. As a matter of fact, one
newspaper reporter asked Professor Moore, "Don't you think that maybe the Arabs might
have known about these things - the description of the embryo, its appearance and how it
changes and grows? Maybe there were not scientists, but maybe they did something
crude dissections on their own - carved up people and examined these things."
The professor immediately pointed out to him that he [i.e., the reporter] had missed a
very important point all of the slides of the embryo that had been shown and had been
projected in the film had come from pictures taken through a microscope. He said, "It
does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago, they
could not have seen it!" All of the descriptions in the Qur'an of the appearance of the
embryo are of the item when it is still too small to see with the eye; therefore, one needs a
microscope to see it. Since such a device had only been around for little more than two
hundred years, Dr. Moore taunted, "Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a
microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow
taught Muhammad and convinced him to put this information in his book. Then he
destroyed his equipment and kept it a secret forever. Do you believe that? You really
should not unless you bring some proof because it is such a ridiculous theory. " In fact,
when he was asked, "How do you explain this information in the Qur'an?" Dr. Moore's
reply was, "It could only have been divinely revealed."!
Although the aforementioned example of man researching information contained in the
Qur'an deals with a non-Muslim, it is still valid because he is one of those who is
knowledgeable in the subject being researched. Had some layman claimed that what the
Qur'an says about embryology is true, then one would not necessarily have to accept his
word. However, because of the high position, respect, and esteem man gives scholars,
one naturally assumes that if they research a subject and arrive at a conclusion based on
that research, then the conclusion is valid. One of Professor Moore's colleagues, Marshall
Johnson, deals extensively with geology at the University of Toronto.
The authenticity of the Qur'an
He became very interested in the fact that the Qur'an's statements about embryology are
accurate, and so he asked Muslims to collect everything contained in the Qur'an which
deals with his specialty. Again people were very surprised at the findings. Since there are
a vast number subjects discussed in the Qur'an, it would certainly require a large amount
of time to exhaust each subject. It suffices for the purpose of this discussion to state that
the Qur'an makes very clear and concise statements about various subjects while
simultaneously advising the reader to verify the authenticity of these statements with
research by scholars in those subjects. And as illustrated by the Qur'an has clearly
emerged authentic. Undoubtedly, there is an attitude in the Qur'an which is not found
anywhere else. It is interesting how when the Qur'an provides information, it often tells
the reader, "You did not know this before." Indeed, there is no scripture that exists which
makes that claim. All of the other ancient writings and scriptures that people have, do
give a lot of information, but they always state where the information came from.
For example, when the Bible discusses ancient history, it states that this king lived here,
this one fought in a certain battle, another one had so may sons, etc. Yet it always
stipulates that if you want more information, then you should read the book of so and so
because that is where the information came from. In contrast to this concept, the Qur'an
provides the reader with information and states that this information is something new.
Of course, there always exists the advice to research the information provided and verify
its authenticity. It is interesting that such a concept was never challenged by non-Muslims
fourteen centuries ago. Indeed, the Makkans who hated the Muslims, and time and time
again they heard such revelations claiming to bring new information; yet, they never
spoke up and said, "This is not new. We know where Muhammad got this information.
We learned this at school."
They could never challenge its authenticity because it really was new! In concurrence
with the advice given in the Qur'an to research information (even if it is new) when
'Umar was caliph, he chose a group of men and sent them to find the wall of Dhul-
Qarnayn. Before the Qur'anic revelation, the Arabs had never heard of such a wall, but
because the Qur'an described it, they were able to discover it. As a matter of fact, it is
now located in what is called Durbend in the Soviet Union. It must be stressed here that
the Qur'an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean
that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine
revelations.
For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely
revealed. The real problem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source the
Qur'an's information. The emphasis is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur'an's
authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then he has the right
to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur'an encourages. Once a man came up to me
after a lecture I delivered in South Africa. He was very angry about what I had said, and
so he claimed, "I am going to go home tonight and find a mistake in the Qur'an." Of
course, I said, "Congratulations. That is the most intelligent thing that you have said."
Certainly, this is the approach Muslims need to take with those who doubt the Qur'an's
authenticity, because the Qur'an itself offers the same challenge. An inevitably, after
accepting it's challenge and discovering that it is true, these people will come to believe it
because they could not disqualify it. In essence, the Qur'an earns their respect because
they themselves have had to verify its authenticity. An essential fact that cannot be
reiterated enough concerning the authenticity of the Qur'an is that one's inability to
explain a phenomenon himself does not require his acceptance of the phenomenon's
existence or another person's explanation of it.
Specifically, just because one cannot explain something does not mean that one has to
accept someone else's explanation. However, the person's refusal of other explanations
reverts the burden of proof back on himself to find a feasible answer. This general theory
applies to numerous concepts in life, but fits most wonderfully with the Qur'anic
challenge, for it creates a difficulty for one who says, "I do not believe it." At the onset of
refusal one immediately has an obligation to find an explanation himself if he feels
others' answers are inadequate. In fact, in one particular Qur'anic verse which I have
always seen mistranslated into English, Allah mentions a man who heard the truth
explained to him. It states that he was derelict in his duty because after he heard the
information, he left without checking the verity of what he had heard. In other words, one
is guilty if he hears something and does not research it and check to see whether it is true.
One is supposed to process all information and decide what is garbage to be thrown out
and what is worthwhile information to be kept and benefited from at a later date. One
cannot just let it rattle around in his head. It must be put in the proper categories and
approached from that point of view. For example, if the information is still doubtful, then
one must discern whether it's closer to being true or false. But if all of the facts have been
presented, then one must decide absolutely between these two options. And even if one is
not positive about the authenticity of the information, he is still required to process all of
the information and make the admission that he just does not know for sure. Although
this last point appears to be futile, in actuality, it is beneficial to the arrival at a positive
conclusion at a later time in that it forces the person to at least recognize, research and
review the facts. This familiarity with the information will give the person "the edge"
when future discoveries are made and additional information is presented. The important
thing is that one deals with the facts and does not simply discard them out of empathy
and disinterest.
Truthfulness of the Qur'an
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur'an is evident in the confidence which
is prevalent throughout it; and this confidence comes from a different approach -
"Exhausting the Alternatives." In essence, the Qur'an states, "This book is a divine
revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?" In other words, the reader is
challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and
ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its
source? The interesting fact is that no one has with an explanation that works. In fact, all
alternatives have bee exhausted. As has been well established by non-Muslims, these
alternatives basically are reduces to two mutually exclusive schools of thought, insisting
on one or the other. On one hand, there exists a large group of people who have
researched the Qur'an for hundreds of years and who claim, "One thing we know for sure
- that man, Muhammad, thought he was a prophet. He was crazy!" They are convinced
that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was fooled somehow. Then on the other hand, there
is another group which alleges, "Because of this evidence, one thing we know for sure is
that that man, Muhammad, was a liar!" Ironically, these two groups never seem to get
together without contradicting. In fact, many references on Islam usually claim both
theories. They start out by saying that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was crazy and
then end by saying that he was a liar. They never seem to realize that he could not have
been both!
For example, if one is deluded and really thinks that he is a prophet, and then he does not
sit up late at night planning, "How will I fool the people tomorrow so that they think I am
a prophet?" He truly believes that he is a prophet, and he trusts that the answer will be
given to him by revelation. As a matter of fact, a great deal of the Qur'an came in answer
to questions. Someone would ask Muhammad (peace be upon him) a question, and the
revelation would come with the answer to it. Certainly, if one is crazy and believes that
an angel put words in his ear, then when someone asks him a question, he thinks that the
angel will give him the answer. Because he is crazy, he really thinks that. He does not tell
someone to wait a short while and then run to his friends and ask them, "Does anyone
know the answer?" This type of behavior is characteristic of one who does not believe
that he is a prophet. What the non-Muslims refuse to accept is that you cannot have it
both ways. One can be deluded, or he can be a liar. He can be either one or neither, but he
certainly cannot be both! The emphasis is on the fact that they are unquestionably
mutually exclusive personal traits. The following scenario is a good example of the kind
of circle that non-Muslims go around in constantly. If you ask one of them, "What is the
origin of the Qur'an?" He tells you that it originated from the mind of a man who was
crazy. Then you ask him, "If it came from his head, then where did he get the information
contained in it? Certainly the Qur'an mentions many things with which the Arabs were
not familiar." So in order to explain the fact which you bring him, he changes his position
and says, "Well, maybe he was not crazy. Maybe some foreigner brought him the
information. So he lied and told people that he was a prophet." At this point then you
have to ask him, "If Muhammad was a liar, then where did he get his confidence? Why
did he behave as though he really thought he was a prophet?" Finally backed into a
corner, like a cat he quickly lashes out with the first response that comes to his mind.
Forgetting that he has already exhausted that possibility, he claims, "Well, maybe he
wasn't a liar. He was probably crazy and really thought that he was a prophet." And thus
he begins the futile circle again.
As has already been mentioned, there is much information contained in the Qur'an whose
source cannot be attributed to anyone other than Allah. For example, who told
Muhammad about the wall of Dhul-Qarnayn - a place hundreds of miles to the north?
Who told him about embryology? When people assemble facts such as these, if they are
not willing to attribute their existence to a divine source, they automatically resort to the
assumption someone brought Muhammad the information and that he used it to fool the
people. However, this theory can easily be disproved with one simple question: "If
Muhammad was a liar, where did he get his confidence? Why did he tell some people out
right to their face what others could never say?" Such confidence depends completely
upon being convinced that one has a true divine revelation. For example, the Prophet
(peace be upon him) had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. This man hated Islam to
such an extent that he used to follow the Prophet around in order to discredit him. If Abu
Lahab saw the Prophet (peace be upon him) speaking to a stranger, he would wait until
they parted and then would go to the stranger and ask him, "What did he tell you? Did he
say, 'Black.'? Well, it's white. Did he say, 'Morning.'? Well, it's night." He faithfully said
the exact opposite of whatever he heard Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the
Muslims say. However, about ten years before Abu Lahab died, a little chapter in the
Qur'an was revealed to him. It distinctly stated that he would go to the Fire (i.e., Hell). In
other words, it affirmed that he would never become a Muslim and would therefore be
condemned forever. For ten years all Abu Lahab had to do was say, "I heard that it has
been revealed to Muhammad that I will never change - that I will never become a Muslim
and will enter the Hellfire. Well I want to become a Muslim now. How do you like that?
What do you think of your divine revelation now?" But he never did that. And yet, that is
exactly the kind of behavior one would have expected from him since he always sought
to contradict Islam. In essence, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, "You hate me and
you want to finish me? Here, say these words, and I am finished. Come on, say them!"
But Abu Lahab never said them. Ten years! And in all that time he never accepted Islam
or even became sympathetic to the Islamic cause. How could Muhammad possibly have
known for sure that Abu Lahab would fulfill the Qur'anic revelation if he (i.e.,
Muhammad) was not truly the messenger of Allah? How could he possibly have been so
confident as to give someone 10 years to discredit his claim of Prophethood? The only
answer is that he was Allah's messenger; for in order to put forth suck a risky challenge,
one has to be entirely convinced that he has a divine revelation.
The Devine protection
Another example of the confidence which Muhammad (peace be upon him) had in his
own Prophethood and consequently in the divine protection of himself and his message is
when he left Makkah and hid in a cave with Abu Bakr during their emigration to
Madeenah. The two clearly saw people coming to kill them, and Abu Bakr was afraid.
Certainly, if Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a liar, a forger and one who was trying
to fool the people into believing that he was a prophet, one would have expected him to
say in such a circumstance to his friend, "Hey, Abu Bakr, see if you can find a back way
out of this cave." Or "Squat down in that corner over there and keep quiet." Yet, in fact,
what he said to Abu Bakr clearly illustrated his confidence. He told him, "Relax! Allah is
with us, and Allah will save us!"
Now, if one knows that he is fooling the people, where does one get this kind of attitude?
In fact, such a frame of mind is not characteristic of a liar or a forger at all. So, as has
been previously mentioned, the non-Muslims go around and around in a circle, searching
for a way out - some way to explain the findings in the Qur'an without attributing them to
their proper source. On one hand, they tell you on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, "The
man was a liar," and on the other hand, on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday they tell you,
"He was crazy." What they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they
refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they need both excuses to
explain the information in the Qur'an.
The minister who came to visit
About seven years ago, I had a minister over to my home. In the particular room which
we were sitting there was a Qur'an on the table, face down, and so the minister was not
aware of which book it was. In the midst of a discussion, I pointed to the Qur'an and said,
"I have confidence in that book." Looking at the Qur'an but not knowing which book it
was, he replied, "Well, I tell you, if that book is not the Bible, it was written by a man!"
In response to his statement, I said, "Let me tell you something about what is in that
book." And in just three to four minutes I related to him a few things contained in the
Qur'an. After just those three or four minutes, he completely changed his position and
declared, "You are right. A man did not write that book. The Devil wrote it!" Indeed,
possessing such an attitude is very unfortunate - for many reasons. For one thing, it is a
very quick and cheap excuse. It is an instant exit out of an uncomfortable situation. As a
matter of fact, there is a famous story in the Bible that mentions how one day some of the
Jews were witnessed when Jesus raised a man from the dead. The man had been dead for
four days, and when Jesus arrived, he simply said, "Get up!" and the man arose and
walked away. At such a sight, some of the Jews who were watching said disbelievingly,
"This is the Devil. The Devil helped him!" Now this story is rehearsed often in churches
all over the world, and people cry big tears over it, saying, "Oh, if I had been there, I
would not have been as stupid as the Jews!" Yet ironically, these people do exactly what
the Jews did when in just three minutes you show them only a small part of the Qur'an
and all they can say is, "Oh, the Devil did it. The devil wrote that book!" Because they
are truly backed into a corner and have no other viable answer, they resort to the quickest
and cheapest excuse available. Another Example of people's use of this weak stance can
be found in the Makkans' explanation of the source of Muhammad's message. They used
to say, "The devils bring Muhammad that Qur'an!" But just as with every other
suggestion made, the Qur'an gives the answer. One verse in particular states:
"And they say, 'Surely he is possessed [by jinn], 'but it [i.e., the Qur'an] is not except a
reminder to the worlds."
Thus it gives an argument in reply to such a theory. In fact, there are many arguments in
the Qur'an in reply to the suggestion that devils brought Muhammad (peace be upon him)
his message. For example, in the 26th chapter Allah clearly affirms:
"No evil ones have brought it [i.e., this revelation] down. It would neither be fitting for
them, nor would they be able. Indeed they have been removed far from hearing."
And in another place in the Qur'an, Allah instructs us:
"So when you recite the Qur'an seek refuge in Allah from Shaytaan, the rejected."
Now is this how Satan writes a book? He tells one, "Before you read my book, ask God
to save you from me."? This is very, very tricky. Indeed, a man could write something
like this, but would Satan do this? Many people clearly illustrate that they cannot come to
one conclusion on this subject. On one hand, they claim that Satan would not do such a
thing and that even if he could, God would not allow him to; yet, on the other hand, they
also believe that Satan is only that much less than God. In essence they allege that the
Devil can probably do whatever God can do. And as a result, when they look at the
Qur'an, even as surprised as they are as to how amazing it is, they still insist, "The Devil
did this!" Thanks be to Allah, Muslims do not have that attitude. Although Satan may
have some abilities, they are a long way separated from the abilities of Allah. And no
Muslim is a Muslim unless he believes that. It is common knowledge even among non-
Muslims that the Devil can easily make mistakes, and it would be expected that he would
contradict himself if and when he wrote a book. For indeed, the Qur'an states:
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would
surely have found therein much discrepancy."
In conjunction with the excuses that non-Muslims advance in futile attempts to justify
unexplainable verses in the Qur'an, there is another attack often rendered which seems to
be a combination of the theorie s that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was crazy and a
liar. Basically, these people propose that Muhammad was insane, and as a result of his
delusion, he lied to and misled people. There is a name for this in psychology. It is
referred to as mythomania. It means simply that one tells lies and then believes them.
This is what the non-Muslims say Muhammad (peace be upon him) suffered from. But
the only problem with this proposal is that one suffering from mythomania absolutely
cannot deal with facts, and yet the whole Qur'an is based entirely upon facts. Everything
contained in it can be researched and established as true. Since facts are such a problem
for a mythomaniac, when a psychologist tries to treat one suffering from that condition,
he continually confronts him with facts. For example, if one is mentally ill and claims, "I
am the king of England," a psychologist does not say to him "No you aren't. You are
crazy!" He just does not do that. Rather, he confronts him with facts and says, "O.K., you
say you are the king of England. So tell me where the queen is today. And where is your
prime minister? And where are your guards?" Now, when the man has trouble trying to
deal with these questions, he tries to make excuses, saying Uh... the queen... she has gone
to her mother's. Uh... the prime minister... well he died." And eventually he is cured
because he cannot deal with the facts. If the psychologist continues confronting him with
enough facts, finally he faces the reality and says, "I guess I am not the king of England."
The Qur'an approaches everyone who reads it in very much the same way a psychologist
treats his mythomania patient. There is a verse in the Qur'an which states:
"Oh mankind, there has come to you an admonition [i.e., the Qur'an] from your Lord and
a healing for what is in the hearts - and guidance and mercy for the believers."
At first glance, this statement appears vague, but the meaning of this verse is clear when
one views it in light of the aforementioned example. Basically, one is healed of his
delusions by reading the Qur'an. In essence, it is therapy. It literally cures deluded people
by confronting them with facts. A prevalent attitude throughout the Qur'an is one which
says, "Oh mankind, you say such and such about this; but what about such and such?
How can you say this when you know that?" And so forth. It forces one to consider what
is relevant and what matters while simultaneously healing one of the delusions that the
facts presented to mankind by Allah can easily be explained away with flimsy theories
and excuses. It is this very sort of thing - confronting people with facts - that had captured
the attention of many non-Muslims. In fact, there exists a very interesting reference
concerning this subject in the New Catholic Encyclopedia. In an article under the subject
of the Qur'an, the Catholic Church states, "Over the centuries, many theories have been
offered as to the origin of the Qur'an... Today no sensible man accepts any of these
theories."!! Now here is the age-old Catholic Church, which has been around for so many
centuries, denying these futile attempts to explain away the Qur'an. Indeed, the Qur'an is
a problem for the Catholic Church. It states that it is revelation, so they study it.
Certainly, they would love to find proof that it is not, but they cannot. They cannot find a
viable explanation. But at least they are honest in their research and do not accept the first
unsubstantiated interpretation which comes along. The Chur ch states that in fourteen
centuries it has not yet been presented a sensible explanation. At least it admits that the
Qur'an is not an easy subject to dismiss. Certainly, other people are much less honest.
They quickly say, "Oh, the Qur'an came from here. The Qur'an came from there." And
they do not even examine the credibility of what they are stating most of the time. Of
course, such a statement by the Catholic Church leaves the everyday Christian in some
difficulty. It just may be that he has his own ideas as to the origin of the Qur'an, but as a
single member of the Church, he cannot really act upon his own theory. Such an action
would be contrary to the obedience, allegiance and loyalty which the Church demands.
By virtue of his membership, he must accept what the Catholic Church declares without
question and establish its teachings as part of his everyday routine. So, in essence, if the
Catholic Church as a whole is saying, "Do not listen to these unconfirmed reports about
the Qur'an," then what can be said about the Islamic point of view? Even non-Muslims
are admitting that there is something to the Qur'an -something that has to be
acknowledged - then why are people so stubborn and defensive and hostile when
Muslims advance the very same theory? This is certainly something for those with mind a
to contemplate - something to ponder for those of understanding!
Almighty God is the source of the Qur'an
Recently, the leading intellectual in the Catholic Church - a man by the name of Hans -
studied the Qur'an and gave his opinion of what he had read. This man has been around
for some time, and he is highly respected in the Catholic Church, and after careful
scrutiny, he reported his findings, concluding, "God has spoken to man through the man,
Muhammad." Again this is a conclusion arrived at by a non-Muslim source - the very
leading intellectual of the Catholic Church himself! I do not think that the Pope agrees
with him, but nonetheless, the opinion of such a noted, repute public figure must carry
some weight in defense of the Muslim position. He must be applauded for facing the
reality that the Qur'an is not something which can be easily pushed aside and that, in fact
God is the source of these words. As is evident from the aforementioned information, all
of the possibilities have been exhausted, so the chance of finding another possibility of
dismissing the Qur'an is nonexistent. For if the book is not a revelation, then it is a
deception; and if it is a deception, one must ask, "What is its origin" And whe re does it
deceive us?" Indeed, the true answers to these questions shed light on the Qur'an's
authenticity and silence the bitter unsubstantiated claims of the unbelievers. Certainly, if
people are going to insist that the Qur'an is a deception, then they must bring forth
evidence to support such a claim. The burden of proof is on them, not us! One is never
supposed to advance a theory without sufficient corroborating facts; so I say to them,
"Show me one deception! Show me where the Qur'an deceives me! Show me, otherwise,
don't say that it is a deception!" An interesting characteristic of the Qur'an is how it deals
with surprising phenomena which relate not only to the past but to modern times as well.
In essence, the Qur'an is not and old problem. It is still a problem even today - a problem
to the non-Muslims that is. For everyday, every week, every year brings more and more
evidence that the Qur'an is a force to be contended with - that its authenticity is no longer
to be challenged! For example, one verse in the Qur'an reads;
"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We
clove them asunder, and made from water every living thing? Will they not then
believe?"
Ironically, this very information is exactly what they awarded the 1973 Noble Prize for -
to a couple of unbelievers. The Qur'an reveals the origin of the universe - how it began
from one piece - and mankind continues to verify this revelation, even up to now.
Additionally, the fact that all life originated from water would not have been an easy
thing to convince people of fourteen centuries ago. Indeed, if 1400 years ago you had
stood in the desert and told someone, "All of this, you see (pointing to yourself), is made
up of mostly water," no one would ha ve believed you. Proof of that was not available
until the invention of the microscope. They had to wait to find out that cytoplasm, the
basic substance of the cell, is made-up of 80% water. Nonetheless, the evidence did
come, and once again the Qur'an stood the test of time. In reference to the falsification
tests mentioned earlier, it is interesting to note that they, too, relate to both the past and
the present. Some of them were used as illustrations of Allah's omnipotence and
knowledge, while others continue to stand as challenges to the present day. An example
of the former is the statement made in the Qur'an about Abu Lahab. It clearly illustrates
that Allah, the Knower of the Unseen, knew that Abu Lahab would never change his
ways and accept Islam. Thus Allah dictated that he would be condemned to the Hellfire
forever. Such a chapter was both an illustration of Allah's divine wisdom and a warning
to those who were like Abu Lahab.
The relationship between the Muslims and the Jews
An interesting example of the latter type of falsification tests contained in the Qur'an is
the verse which mentions the relationship between the Muslims and the Jews. The verse
is careful not to narrow its scope to the relationship between individual members of each
religion, but rather, it summarizes the relationship between the two groups of people as a
whole. In essence, the Qur'an states that the Christians will always treat the Muslims
better than the Jews will treat the Muslims. Indeed, the full impact of such a statement
can only be felt after careful consideration of the real meaning of such a verse. It is true
that many Christians and many Jews have become Muslims, but as a whole, the Jewish
community is to be viewed as an avid enemy of Islam. Additionally, very few people
realize what such an open declaration in the Qur'an invites. In essence, it is an easy
chance for the Jews to prove that the Qur'an is false - that it is not a divine revelation. All
they have to do is organize themselves, treat the Muslims nicely for a few years and then
say, "Now what does your holy book say about who are your best friends in the world -
the Jews or the Christians? Look what we Jews have done for you!" That is all they have
to do to disprove the Qur'an's authenticity, yet they have not done it in 1400 years. But, as
always, the offer still stands open! All of the examples so far given concerning the
various angles from which one can approach the | Qur'an have undoubtedly been
subjective in nature; I however there does exist another angle, among others, which is
objective and whose basis is mathematical. It is surprising how authentic the Qur'an
becomes when one assembles what might be referred to as a list of good guesses.
Mathematically, it can be explained using guessing and predic tion examples. For
instance, if a person has two choices (i.e., one is right, and one is wrong), and he closes
his eyes and makes a choice, then half of the time (i.e., one time out of two) he will be
right. Basically, he has a one in two chance, for he could pick the wrong choice, or he
could pick the right choice. Now if the same person has two situations like that (i.e., he
could be right or wrong about situation number one, and he could be right or wrong about
situation number two), and he closes his eyes and guesses, then he will only be right one
fourth of the time (i.e., one time out of four). He now has a one in four chance because
now there are three ways for him to be wrong and only one way for him to be right. In
simple terms, he could make the wrong choice in situation number one and then make the
wrong choice in situation number two; OR he could make the wrong choice in situation
number one and then make the right choice in situation number two; OR he could make
the right choice in situation number one and then make the wrong choice in situation
number two; OR he could make the right choice in situation number one and then make
the right choice in situation number two. Of course, the only instance in which he could
be totally right is the last scenario where he could guess correctly in both situations. The
odds of his guessing completely correctly have become greater because the number of
situations for him to guess in have increased; and the mathematical equation representing
such a scenario is 1/2 x 1/2 (i.e., one time out of two for the first situation multiplied by
one time out of two for the second situation). Continuing on with the example, if the
same person now has three situations in which to make blind guesses, then he will only
be right one eighth of the time (i.e., one time out of eight or 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2). Again, the
odds of choosing the correct choice in all three situations have decreased his chances of
being completely correct to only one time in eight. It must be understood that as the
number of situations increase, the chances of being right decrease, for the two
phenomena are inversely proportional. Now applying this example to the situations in the
Qur'an, if one draws up a list of all of the subjects about which the Qur'an has made
correct statements, it becomes very clear that it is highly unlikely that they ere all just
correct blind guesses. Indeed, the subjects discussed in the Qur'an are numerous, and thus
the odds of someone just making lucky guesses about all of them become practically
none. If there are a million ways or the Qur'an to be wrong, yet each time it is right, then
it is unlikely that someone was guessing. The following three examples of subjects about
which the Qur'an has made correct statements collectively illustrate how the Qur'an
continues to beat the odds. In the 16th chapter the Qur'an mentions that the female bee
leaves its home to gather food. Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that
you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess
female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the
Qur'an is right. But it also happens that was not what most people believed at the time
when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female
bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee
never leaves his home to gather food. However, in Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth,
some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a
king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time - that the bees that one sees
flying around are male bees and that they go home and answer to a king. However, that is
not true at all. The fact is that they are females, and they answer to a queen. Yet it took
modern scientific investigations in the last 300 years to discover that this is the case.
More scientific evidence
So, back to the list of good guesses, concerning the topic of bees, the Qur'an had a 50/50
chance of being right, and the odds were one in two. In addition to the subject of bees, the
Qur'an also discusses the sun and the manner in which it travels through space. Again, a
person can guess on that subject. When the sun moves through space, there are two
options: it can travel just as a stone would travel if one threw it, or it can move of its own
accord. The Qur'an states the latter - that it moves as a result of its own motion. To do
such, the Qur'an uses a form of the word sabaha to describe the sun's movement through
space. In order to properly provide the reader with a comprehensive understanding of the
implications of this Arabic verb, the following example is given. If a man is in water and
the verb sabaha is applied in reference to his movement, it can be understood that he is
swimming, moving of his own accord and not as a result of a direct force applied to him.
Thus when this verb is used in reference to the sun's movement through space, it in no
way implies that the sun is flying uncontrollably through space as a result of being hurled
or the like. It simply means that the sun is turning and rotating as it travels. Now, this is
what the Qur'an affirms, but was it an easy thing to discover? Can any common man tell
that the sun is turning? Only in modern times was the equipment made available to
project the image of the sun onto a tabletop so that one could look at it without being
blinded. And through this process it was discovered that not only are there three spots on
the sun but that these spots move once every 25 days. This movement is referred to as the
rotation of the sun around its axis and conclusively proves that, as the Qur'an stated 1400
years ago, the sun does, indeed turn as it travels through space. And returning once again
to the subject of good guess, the odds of guessing correctly about both subjects - the sex
of bees and the movement of the sun - are one in four!
The time zones
Seeing as back fourteen centuries ago people probably did not understand much about
time zones, the Quran's statements about this subject are considerably surprising. The
concept that one family is having breakfast as the sun comes up while another family is
enjoying the brisk night air is truly something to be marveled at, even in modern time.
Indeed, fourteen centuries ago, a man could not travel more than thirty miles in one day,
and thus it took him literally months to travel from India to Morocco, for example. And
probably, when he was having supper in Morocco, he thought to himself, "Back home in
India they are having supper right now." This is because he did not realize that, in the
process of traveling, he moved across a time zone. Yet, because it is the words of Allah,
the All-Knowing, the Qur'an recognizes and acknowledges such a phenomenon. In an
interesting verse it states that when history comes to an end and the Day of Judgment
arrives, it will all occurring an instant; and this very instant will catch some people in the
daytime and some people at night. This clearly illustrates Allah's divine wisdom and His
previous knowledge of the existence of time zones, even though such a discovery was
non-existent back fourteen centuries ago. Certainly, this phenomenon is not something
which is obvious to one's eyes or a result of one's experience, and this fact, in itself,
suffices as proof of the Qur'ans authenticity.
Returning one final time to the subject of good guesses for the purpose of the present
example, the odds that someone guessed correctly about all three of the aforementioned
subjects - the sex of bees, the movement of the sun and the existence of time zones - are
one in eight! Certainly, one could continue on and on with this example, drawing up
longer and longer list of good guesses; and of course, the odds would become higher and
higher with each increase of subjects about which one could guess. But what no one can
deny is the following; the odds that Mohammed an illiterate, guessed correctly about
thousands and thousands of subjects, never once making a mistake, are so high that any
theory of his authorship of the Qur'an must be completely dismissed - even by the most
hostile enemies of Islam!
Indeed, the Qur'an expects this kind of challenge. Undoubtedly, if one said to someone
upon entering a foreign land, "I know your father. I have met him," probably the man
from that land would doubt the newcomer's word, saying, "You have just come here.
How could you know my father?" As a result, he would question him, "Tell me, is my
father tall, short, dark, fair? What is he like?" Of course, if the visitor continued
answering all of the questions correctly, the skeptic would have no choice but to say, "I
guess you do know my father. I don't know how you know him, but I guess you do!" The
situation is the same with the Qur'an. It states that it originates from the One who created
everything. So everyone has the right to say, "Convince me! If the author of this book
really originated life and everything in the heavens and on the earth, then He should
know about this, about that, and so on." And inevitably, after researching the Qur'an,
everyone will discover the same truths. Additionally, we all know something for sure: we
do not all have to be experts to verify what the Qur'an affirms. One's iman (faith) grows
as one continues to check and confirm the truths contained in the Qur'an. And one is
supposed to do so all of his life.
May God (Allah) guide everyone close to the truth.
SUPPLEMENT
An engineer at the University of Toronto who was interested in psychology and who had
read something on it, conducted researched wrote a thesis on Efficiency of Group
Discussions. The purpose of his research was to find out how much people accomplish
when they get together to talk in groups of two, three, ten, etc. The graph of his findings:
people accomplish most when they talk in groups of two. Of course, this discovery was
entirely beyond his expectations, but it is very old advice given in the Qur'an:
Additionally, the 89th chapter of the Qur'an mentions a certain city by the name of 'Iram
(a city of pillars), which was not known in ancient history and which was non-existent as
far as historians were concerned. However, the December 1978 edition of National
Geographic introduced interesting information which mentioned that in 1973, the city of
Elba was excavated in Syria. The city was discovered to be 43 centuries old, but that is
not the most amazing part. Researchers found in the library of Elba a record of all of the
cities with which Elba had done business. Believe or not, there on the list was the name
of the city of 'Iram. The people of Elba had done business with the people of 'Iram!
"Say, 'I exhort you to one thing - that you stand for Allah, [assessing the truth] by twos
and singly, and then reflect.....' In conclusion I ask you to consider with care the
following:
"And they say, 'Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?' Say, 'Indeed, the
signs are with Allah, and I am but a clear warner.' But is sufficient for them that We have
sent down to you the Book [i.e. Qur'an] which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in that is
mercy and a reminder to people who believe."
Reference: www.beconvinced.com

 

[Predator]

One can use the Bible to justify Holy war and you can do the same with the Qu'ran as we know from the 9/11 murderes - am I to blame the Qu'ran for that? The Bible is not banned in say the UAE or IRAN or Parkistan?

Looks like you havent read the quran or you dont know what you're talking about , Quran doesnt glorify murdering of innocent people. In fact Quran tell us killing one innocent is like killing the whole of mankind . Terrorist are misguided people who want to take revenge at any cost , i could well usa is biggest terrorist nation having killed the most number of people .

You say its disgusting language but understood correctly it is stating the truth either plainly or by means of allegory. For example, Michael Marcavage may be sent to prison for opposing homosexuals in public office and showing that is ungodly by reading a passage from the Bible that mentions them - would you support him or not?

Yeah but if those are words of god Why would they get banned and Reverends themselves shy away from reading it and the language shouldnt be so profane that it goes to Stop public pornography http://www.nobeliefs.com/spp.htm . if it cant be read then its not the word of god , the language of god should be able to be read by all and should be pure

If I look at the verses you cited it amounts to less than 0.1% of the Bible so in your research you ignored almost everything and selected a few lurid sounding verses or parts of verses and took them completely out of context- why did you do that, what kind of honest evaluation is that ?
when it read talks of these things do you think we are supposed to feel comfortable when we hear about such things?

So do you feel comfortable reading insults to god and his contradictory atributtes of his power in your bible such as these

GOD : Qualities ill-befitting God -

(a) A "hissing" God (?) ISAIAH 5:26, 7:18, ZECHARIAH 10:8

God evolving fire from his mouth like a dragon

(b) A "roaring" God (?) ISAIAH 42:13, JEREMIAH 25:30

(c) A "barber" God (?) ISAIAH 7:20

Do you speak of God like that He wants to shave people heads and the hair of the legs , Even a barber would ask you to use immac and remove hair of the legs

(e) A God "riding" a cherub (?) 2 SAMUEL 22:11

God couldnt helicopter or a flying saucer , But rides a poor tiny girl angel ,what mockery you're making out of god .Even Superman does a better Job in that aspect

(f) A God murders 50,070 for looking into a box (?) 1 SAMUEL 6:19


GOD : His contradictory attributes -

(a) "No man hath seen God at any time" JOHN 1:18
(b) "(God) whom no man hath seen, nor can see ..." 1 TIMOTHY 6:16
(c) "And he (God) said, Thou canst see my face: for there shall
no man see me, and live." EXODUS 33:20


Contradicted by:
(a) "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man
speaketh unto his friend." EXODUS 33:11
(b) "And they (Moses, Aaron and seventy others) saw the God of
Israel . . ." EXODUS 24:10
(c) "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have
seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." GENESIS 32:30
And as a special favour God shows his back parts to Moses:
"And I (God) will take away my hand and thou shalt see my
back parts . . ." EXODUS 33:23



13. GOD : Is not a fabricator of confusion -
(a) "For God is NOT the author of confusion . . ." 1 CORINTHIANS
14:33

Contradicted by:
(a) ". . . I make peace, and CREATE EVIL . . ." ISAIAH 45:7
(b) "But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and AN EVIL
SPIRIT from the Lord troubled him." 1 SAMUEL 16:14
(c) "And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion,
that they should BELIEVE A LIE." 2 THESSALONIANS 2:11

14. GOD : Further contradictory qualities -

(a) GOD AS AN OMNIPOTENT BEING:
"And Jesus saith . . . for with God ALL THINGS are
possible." MARK 10:27, also MATTHEW 19:26
Contradicted by:
"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drove out the
inhabitants of the mountain; but COULD NOT drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had CHARIOTS OF
IRON." JUDGES 1:19

(a) GOD'S ANGER ABIDETH FOR A MINUTE:
"For his (God's) anger endureth but a MOMENT." PSALMS 30:5

Contradicted by:
"And the Lord's anger was kindled against Israel, and he
made them (the Jews) wander in the wilderness FORTY
YEARS . . ." NUMBERS 32:13



(b) GOD DOES NOT SHOW ANY SELF-REPROACH:
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should REPENT . . ." NUMBERS 23:19
Contradicted by:
". . . and the Lord REPENTED that he made Saul king over
Israel." 1 SAMUEL 15:35
Also: "And the Lord REPENTED of the evil which he thought to
do unto his people (Israel)." EXODUS 32:14


So the god isnt even perfect and commits sins as well , is this a quality of god


(c) GOD DWELLS IN LIGHT:
". . . (God) dwelling in the LIGHT which no man can
approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see . . ." 1
TIMOTHY 6:16

Contradicted by:
"Then spake Solomon, the Lord said that he would dwell in
the THICK DARKNESS." 1 KINGS 8:12

(d) GOD DOES NOT ENTICE MAN:
"Let no man say he is tempted, I am TEMPTED of God: for
God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTETH
he any man." JAMES 1:13

Contradicted by:
"And it came to pass after these things, that God DID
TEMPT Abraham . . ." GENESIS 22:1


((e) GOD DWELLS IN LIGHT:
". . . (God) dwelling in the LIGHT which no man can
approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see . . ." 1
TIMOTHY 6:16

Contradicted by:
"Then spake Solomon, the Lord said that he would dwell in
the THICK DARKNESS." 1 KINGS 8:12


God gets refreshed a huge insult to god in the bible

for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and WAS REFRESHED." EXODUS 31:17


On the contrary the Holy Qur'an states:

"His throne doth extend
Over the heavens
And the earth, and He feeleth
No fatigue in guarding
And preserving them
For He is the most High,
The Supreme (in glory)." Holy Qur'an 2:255


Doesn this example show that the God of the Quran is more powerful than the God of the Bible

Here is just show you have not bothered to actually read the section because if you did you would know that the two sisters are clearly stated as being Jerusalem and Samaria - not people at all so its speaking of a debased and debauched nation and pointing out their wickedness and the dread consequences that come from it - no one, no one could read that passage as recommending sin.

I was only referring to the language used all along , things can be explained in decent language as shown For eg : compare the verses of the Quran and verse of Bible regarding the birth of jesus

The Holy Bible does not even spare God from illicit
sexual aspersions being ascribed to Him
In the case of the conception of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him),
God Almighty arranged for Mary to conceive Jesus by the intervention
of the Holy Ghost, as witnessed in the Bible as if the holy spirit has come to impregnate Mary and mary conceives :

(a) "The Holy Ghost shall COME UPON thee (the question is,
how?), and the power of the most High shall OVERSHADOW
thee (again, how?), luke i:35

Compare that to Quran

Mary said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allâh creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" - and it is. Quran 3:48

That sounds like If God almighty want to create something , he just says "Be " and it comes into being. A miracle. As simple as that

In your view, I might regard talking about houris or killing people as x-rated

.
I dont see a mere mention of the houri can be considered disgusting .things in heaven cant be compared to things on earth . And regarding the language , the level of profanity is nothing like the perverted words in ezekiel 23

Incase you missed the main perverted part, here it is again:

19 Yet she increased her whorings, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the ***** in the land of Egypt 20 and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions

the verse claims that a lady lusted after men who’s penises were the sizes of donkeys and who’s ejaculation ( when the sperm comes out) is like that of horses. I would really love to know what is the wisdom behind knowing the size of a men’s penises and how they ejaculate. Can any Christian go teach this to his or her children? I would love to see that. Imagine a parent trying to explain this to their kid. So if anything it is the Bible which contains perverted verses such as this one.
Christians are too ashamed of it which is why they never bring it up. In fact you tell a Christian about this they will say you are lying!

- a task for you; were does the qu'ran speak about homosexuality

It does talk about homosexuality

And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Lo! ye commit lewdness such as no creature did before you. For come ye not in unto males?-- 29:28-29

Male homosexuals acts are condemned as unnatural. 29:28-29 .

is there anything anywhere is Islam that you would not want to read out loud to your daughter or mother or sister?

What are you referring to ?

I gave you statistics because it is clear you imply things are better under sharia but the facts don't seem to support that view

I gave u statistics of the country in a link my post and it looks you havent bothered to read it because you dont have the guts to admit that you're wrong ,so the facts do support it.

 

[Chuck]

The Bible is not banned in say the UAE or IRAN or Parkistan?

I don't know about Iran, but Bible is not banned here in UAE or Pakistan.

 

[Hugo]

Quote Hugo: One can use the Bible to justify Holy war and you can do the same with the Qu'ran as we know from the 9/11 murderes - am I to blame the Qu'ran for that? The Bible is not banned in say the UAE or IRAN or Parkistan?

Looks like you havent read the quran or you dont know what you're talking about , Quran doesnt glorify murdering of innocent people. In fact Quran tell us killing one innocent is like killing the whole of mankind . Terrorist are misguided people who want to take revenge at any cost , i could well usa is biggest terrorist nation having killed the most number of people .

Why don't you take the trouble to read what was written. In my quote I am PLAINLY asking you that IF someone uses the Qu'ran to justify murder (and they have done) is that a reason to blame the Qu'ran and get it banned? For example, can't you see how the following verse can be used like that to justify qanything?

And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. ( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, 2:191)