is it time for muslims in the west to leave?

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Malaikah said:
:sl:

I disagree. The imams would be in a position where they are teaching Islam and giving dawah. That makes it perfectly permissible for them to stay there doesn't it?
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as far as i am aware it does not, the ruling on leaving the non-muslim lands at war with islam is general but perhaps someone here with greater knowledge could answer?
 
Giving dawah is all well and good but should it take priority over bringing existing muslims to the right path? There is more corruption/bidah in muslims back home than muslims in the west. There is a dire need for knowledgable imans where fitnah is more prevalent.
 
Dawud_uk said:
as far as i am aware it does not, the ruling on leaving the non-muslim lands at war with islam is general but perhaps someone here with greater knowledge could answer?
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:sl:

Oh ok I didnt take in to consideration the war thing, my comment was about just generally living in a non-muslim land. I do not know if that makes a difference.

Muslimah_Sis said:
Giving dawah is all well and good but should it take priority over bringing existing muslims to the right path? There is more corruption/bidah in muslims back home than muslims in the west. There is a dire need for knowledgable imans where fitnah is more prevalent.
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But doesnt mean they shouldnt abandon the Muslims living in the west does it?:?
 
Assalamo Aleikom,

This isn't the case!
We can live here on three conditions.

1. If whe give continious Da'wa
2. We have to study a Ilm in the west, that isn't available in the Muslim Countries.
3. We have to get an operations, that can only be done in the western countries!


Wa Allahu a3lem, i'm not sure!
Wassalamo Aleikom
 
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FollowingAlhuda said:
Assalamo Aleikom,

This isn't the case!
We can live here on three conditions.

1. If whe give continious Da'wa
2. We have to study a Ilm in the west, that isn't available in the Muslim Countries.
3. We have to get an operations, that can only be done in the western countries!

Wassalamo Aleikom
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assalaamu alaykum,

but there is another exception, if war starts then the covenant is broken and we have to leave at that point if we are able to.

the western nations are at war with the muslims therefore the points you make no longer apply. please check it with scholars, dont just rely on my say-so.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
 
I am a revert I dont think it is time for muslims to leave the west.Allah is the creator of every country.We have to make a stand for Allah where ever we are in this world.We have to share our knowledge of Islam with others it is our duty.Insha'allah we are never given more than we can handle.alhamdullilah
 
Dawud_uk said:
hi snakelegs,

there is a context to each ahaddith (saying of the prophet Muhammad saws) and the scholars look at this and determine the truth of each matter and the context will also tell us how each ruling is meant to be applied.

needless to say there are many sayings that say you should make hijra, so the scholars have lookd at the context and said the hijra that is obligatory is the hijra that is from the lands at war with muslims, the hijra that is not obligatory is where their is no war and you can stop and promote islam where you are.

Abu Abdullah
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yes, i see your point. staying in countries that are waging war against muslims is a separate issue in itself.
but in the case of canada, i believe they only sent a token force, and that probably under pressure from u.s. i think the u.s. probably blackmailed some countries, using various threats to force them to send a token force in order to create the farce of a coalition.
the fact is most muslim countries are still in poverty. why would they welcome foreign immigrants, muslim or not, if they had no skills to offer and don't even speak the language? where can your children get a better education? it seems to me, these are all things to take into consideration.
 
snakelegs said:
yes, i see your point. staying in countries that are waging war against muslims is a separate issue in itself.
but in the case of canada, i believe they only sent a token force, and that probably under pressure from u.s. i think the u.s. probably blackmailed some countries, using various threats to force them to send a token force in order to create the farce of a coalition.
the fact is most muslim countries are still in poverty. why would they welcome foreign immigrants, muslim or not, if they had no skills to offer and don't even speak the language? where can your children get a better education? it seems to me, these are all things to take into consideration.
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i wish it were so but it is not, the canadians led the recent operations against the taliban forces with british support. they are i believe the third largest force in afghanistan after the US and UK.
 
There is another option. Why Don't more Muslims move to the west? The total Muslim population is more than the combined populations of Europe and North America. If just 1/3 of the world's Muslims migrated to the US, they would make Islam the dominating force in the US by being nearly 60% of the US population.

Current Population of US: 298,348,524

Current Estmated world Population of Muslims:900,000,000 -1,902,095,000

Sources for the above figures:

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/population/


http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Islam


The problem is not enough Muslims are aware that the true Jihad in todays world is not one to be fought with weapons. It is one to be fought by us having the courage to stay in Non-Islamic countries and instead of trying to conquer non-Islams, to do our best to invite them into the fold of the Ummah by living the life of a true Muslim. To give up and move to an Islamic country is the easy way out and the wrong way to fight this Jihad. If we are to be true Mujahideens in this Jihad we must learn to use the weapons of love and truth, not be defeated by our own fears and hates.

To give up and move to an Islamic Nation, is a surrender. It is a fast way to be defeated in this Jihad. That would Isolate all Muslims into several small overcrowded countries, deplete their resources and divide the Ummah into nation against nation, for the basic necessities of life. In just a few centuries we would become a forgotten people set off in our own little private worlds with no chance of ever spreading the word of Allah(swt) to non-Muslims.

Also from within these countries we can help our brothers in the Ummah defeat those who are waging war on our brothers. Only, we can not do it with weapons. This is a Jihad that can only be won through peace, Love and tolerance. This can only happen if we live peacefully among the very people that see us as enemies.

We need to sacrifice our emotional desire to go live in a land where Islam is easy. We need to have the strength to stay and prosper in countries that see us as enemies and return hate with love. We have no need to battle with non-Muslims. We need to love them and learn how to encourage them to accept the truth of Islam.
 
Woodrow said:
There is another option. Why Don't more Muslims move to the west? The total Muslim population is more than the combined populations of Europe and North America. If just 1/3 of the world's Muslims migrated to the US, they would make Islam the dominating force in the US by being nearly 60% of the US population.

Current Population of US: 298,348,524

Current Estmated world Population of Muslims:900,000,000 -1,902,095,000

Sources for the above figures:

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/population/


http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Islam


The problem is not enough Muslims are aware that the true Jihad in todays world is not one to be fought with weapons. It is one to be fought by us having the courage to stay in Non-Islamic countries and instead of trying to conquer non-Islams, to do our best to invite them into the fold of the Ummah by living the life of a true Muslim. To give up and move to an Islamic country is the easy way out and the wrong way to fight this Jihad. If we are to be true Mujahideens in this Jihad we must learn to use the weapons of love and truth, not be defeated by our own fears and hates.

To give up and move to an Islamic Nation, is a surrender. It is a fast way to be defeated in this Jihad. That would Isolate all Muslims into several small overcrowded countries, deplete their resources and divide the Ummah into nation against nation, for the basic necessities of life. In just a few centuries we would become a forgotten people set off in our own little private worlds with no chance of ever spreading the word of Allah(swt) to non-Muslims.

Also from within these countries we can help our brothers in the Ummah defeat those who are waging war on our brothers. Only, we can not do it with weapons. This is a Jihad that can only be won through peace, Love and tolerance. This can only happen if we live peacefully among the very people that see us as enemies.

We need to sacrifice our emotional desire to go live in a land where Islam is easy. We need to have the strength to stay and prosper in countries that see us as enemies and return hate with love. We have no need to battle with non-Muslims. We need to love them and learn how to encourage them to accept the truth of Islam.
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assalaamu alaykum,

brother, please go read the seerah because the islam you are calling towards is not what i understand to be example of the prophet Muhammad saws or the sahabah who strives and fought and migrated for the sake of Allah swt.

once they were triumphant then people came to islam in droves, you would seem to make sense but it goes against everything the salaf and best of this ummah have called for or called towards.

you would bring a new meaning to jihad, reclassify the word mujahid and throw out the understandings of the best of the muslims in favour of modern reclassifications, subhanallah i dont think you realise how dangerous is your post and your words.

i love you for the sake of Allah, but i think you are misguided on this and will pray to Allah swt that you are able to be rectified, please if you love me as a brother and think the same about me and my own views then make du'a for me also.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
 
Dawud_uk said:
assalaamu alaykum,

brother, please go read the seerah because the islam you are calling towards is not what i understand to be example of the prophet Muhammad saws or the sahabah who strives and fought and migrated for the sake of Allah swt.

once they were triumphant then people came to islam in droves, you would seem to make sense but it goes against everything the salaf and best of this ummah have called for or called towards.

you would bring a new meaning to jihad, reclassify the word mujahid and throw out the understandings of the best of the muslims in favour of modern reclassifications, subhanallah i dont think you realise how dangerous is your post and your words.

i love you for the sake of Allah, but i think you are misguided on this and will pray to Allah swt that you are able to be rectified, please if you love me as a brother and think the same about me and my own views then make du'a for me also.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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I could very well be mistaken in my views.

I am still very much of a beginner in Islam. It was because of the love I see in Islam that I reverted and that is my own belief as to what Islam is. What I see as the greatest strength of Islam is the love and the desire to share that love.

Ameen to your Du'as and I will also make Dua for you.
 
why leave? the best muslim are the most contributed to others (i.e where you reside). we can still be a muslim an being the part of the society, brother. as long as there is no detrimental effect toward our iman, just stay.

the sea fishes do not need to be salty just because they were surrounded by salt for the most of their life.

it is just my opinion,brother. an opinion from someone who embraced islam recently.
 
assalaamu alaykum,

all please see the following link,

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/33541-hijrah-migration-cause-allah.html

as supplied by brother Fi-Sabilillah, subhanallah the classical scholars have and the Quran and sunnah is quite clear on this matter.

for those of us who are new to Islam it is not for us to look at Islam and its ruling and try to bend them to our own understanding and whims but to look at Islam with the full realisation that it is the Haqq and as such we have to accept its rulings.

even if we do not follow something, we should not say it is wrong or try to change those rulings as this could lead to ruling by other than Allah has revealled.

No we should accept that the Quran is true, the sunnah is true and both are correct and then from there we know the salaf as best in their understanding after the understanding of Muhammad saws, then the scholars of ahlus sunnah.

now knowing all that, it is for us to use our reason to accept our criterion and whatever therefore comes from that is true and should be accepted and if we do not then we take our imaan perhaps too lightly, yes people are fallable and sinful but do not say you know better than Allah and his Rasool saws or we risk leaving the fold of islam.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
 
:sl: Brother Dawud,

I read the link and I can understand were you are coming from. One of the difficulties is many of us who live here in the Western World are reverts and migration is not always an option. Also as reverts I believe we can do more for Islam by staying here and doing our best to help Islam grow.


I know this is a very small part of the link you gave and it is not my intent to just take one part out of context. However, much of this section does seem to support thre stand of reverts in America, I do not know if it would be the same Issue in the UK.

As Islam is the religion of dignity and authority, it was impossible to think of any Muslim submitting himself to the disbelievers; indeed it is forbidden for a Muslim to go to live amongst them and acknowledge their authority over him, because his presence amongst them would make him feel weak and isolated, and, then he would become docile and apologetic before them. He would first be called upon to approve of them, and then to follow them. But Muslims should be filled with morale and confidence, they should be leaders, not followers. They should hold the reins of power; no power should be above them but that of Allah. Therefore Muslims were forbidden to remain in countries where Islam is of no account, except when they are able to freely practice their religion and to observe it without any impediment, and without any fear that their presence there could damage them in any way. If this is not the case, then they must migrate to a better place where the authority of Islam is of some account. If they refuse to do so, while they are able, then they would have no further claims on this religion. About this Allah has spoken in Surat an-Nisa:


Verily! As for those whom the Angels have taken (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory to them), they (angels) asked them, "In what condition were you?". They replied, "We were weak and oppressed on earth". The Angels asked, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to migrate therein?" Such men will find their abode in Hell - what an evil destination! Except the weak ones among men, women and children who were unable to devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way [35]





The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “I am not responsible for any Muslim who stays among polytheists. They asked: 'Why, Apostle of Allah? He said: ‘Their fires should not be visible to one another.’, and he (peace be upon him) said, “Who joins the polytheists and lives with them then he is like them” and he (peace be upon him) said: “Migration will not end until repentance ends, and repentance will not end until the sun rises in the west.”[36]



Al-Hassan Ibn Salih said: "whoever remains in the land of the enemy, will be treated like the disbelievers, so long as he was able to join the Muslims but did not do it. If one of the disbelievers accepts Islam, but still remains with the disbelievers, even though he was able to go to join the Muslims, he is to be treated like them; neither his blood nor his property will be protected.
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In the US it is possible for a Muslim to hold reins of Power at least within his own local community. Sadly few Muslims here except for some reverts are either unaware or do not realise they can control their own communities. The US does not have any person or Government agency they are subjected to. The Government of the US is supposed to abide by the choices of the people and not the other way around. Yes, there are Federal, State, Local and individual laws. The laws of the individual are considered to be the most important and the remainder of the laws are to protect the rights of the individual. It is true many Americans are lax and do not pursue their own rights. But, we all have the right to follow Allah(swt) above any laws issued by the land. Muslims can be leaders here if they take the initiative. Perhaps not on a federal level but definetly on the local level and very probable on a State level. The Federal Government is forbidden to infringe upon the rights of the states.

Now in the next part:

except when they are able to freely practice their religion and to observe it without any impediment, and without any fear that their presence there could damage them in any way
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There is no impediment to Islam here in the US. The only restriction is it can not be imposed upon others through the use of force. Religious freedom is one of the basic reasons the US fought for independance from Great Britain.

I can only say that my words were said on the basis that there is no reason a Muslim living in the US can not live as a Muslim. there is no reason we can not be leaders in the community and we do have the right to publicaly express opposistion to the US involvement in unjust wars.

We do have at least 2 States that have based their state laws on the religions of the people within the State. The laws in Utah are based on Mormomism and the Laws in Louisiana are based on Catholochism. There is no reason why a State could not base its laws on Sharia if Muslims stand up and make their presence known. If not a State then at least a County. In fact we do have many counties that have laws that differ from the State and federal Law. Just one small example. Many Texas counties forbid the sale of Alcohol. Throughout the South you will find many pockets were the laws are based on the dominate local example.

Another example are the Amish and Mennonites. They have their own communities that are totaly seperate from State and Federal rule over most of their lives. The Amish for example will not send their children to Public Schools, pay Taxes, observe holidays, pledge allegiance to the flag or serve in the Military. there is nothing stopping us as Muslims from doing the same. Some of the Amish communities are larger, in area than the smaller Islamic nations.
 
Dawud_uk said:
assalaamu alaykum,

but there is another exception, if war starts then the covenant is broken and we have to leave at that point if we are able to.

the western nations are at war with the muslims therefore the points you make no longer apply. please check it with scholars, dont just rely on my say-so.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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:sl:
But the West is certainly not at war with Islam! The pagans of Arabia were at war with Islam. They tortured, murdered and raped anybody who was Muslim. They wanted to exterminate Islam. America just wants a bigger piece of the Middle East. If the West was at war with Islam we would all be in prison or worse, in death camps. I think that some of us should certainly stay here, to help teach Islam and show it to the people. If there is no Islam, then people will just think of it as a strange foreign thing, something dangerous, something that should be stopped. Then the West would really be at war with Islam.

The prophet (pbuh) stayed in Makkah for a long time. He could have left anytime he wanted. But he didn't, he stayed to help preach and convert people to the truth, and only left when things got really bad. If we say we follow the sunnah, why don't we follow this! Let the religious people stay, let them homeschool their children, let them preach and help the masses, and then, if gas chambers and firing squads arrive, then they should leave. And if they die, they are martyrs, because they died preaching Islam, and also died trying to follow another sunnah: the sunnah of making Hijra.
:w:
 
Dawud_uk said:
assalaamu alaykum,

but there is another exception, if war starts then the covenant is broken and we have to leave at that point if we are able to.

the western nations are at war with the muslims therefore the points you make no longer apply. please check it with scholars, dont just rely on my say-so.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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I will Insha Allah!

But i'm now buzy with study of Aqeedah according to the understanding of the Salaf. I wil Insha Allah learn more about Muslims in the west later. I had to put at my reaction ''Allahu A3lem'' nut i didn't.

I will cnage it Insha Allah. Thank you akhi!
Wassalam
 
Fishman said:
:sl:
But the West is certainly not at war with Islam! The pagans of Arabia were at war with Islam. They tortured, murdered and raped anybody who was Muslim. They wanted to exterminate Islam. America just wants a bigger piece of the Middle East. If the West was at war with Islam we would all be in prison or worse, in death camps. I think that some of us should certainly stay here, to help teach Islam and show it to the people. If there is no Islam, then people will just think of it as a strange foreign thing, something dangerous, something that should be stopped. Then the West would really be at war with Islam.

The prophet (pbuh) stayed in Makkah for a long time. He could have left anytime he wanted. But he didn't, he stayed to help preach and convert people to the truth, and only left when things got really bad. If we say we follow the sunnah, why don't we follow this! Let the religious people stay, let them homeschool their children, let them preach and help the masses, and then, if gas chambers and firing squads arrive, then they should leave. And if they die, they are martyrs, because they died preaching Islam, and also died trying to follow another sunnah: the sunnah of making Hijra.
:w:
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Does someone had an article about this subject? Something in the Fiqh or maybe a Fatwa?

Djazaaka Allah Ghair!



Wassalam
 
i agree, the west is not at war with islam per se, as fishman pointed out - but some western countries are involved in killing muslims. so we are all paying for this through our taxes, even those of us who are 100% opposed to what the west is doing.
does this distinction make any difference according to fiqh?
 

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