Is Jesus God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter afriend
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 93
  • Views Views 13K
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

In the name of Allah most Gracious most Merciful

:sl:
DUSKINESS
+1 = Trinity (

ok fair enough 2+1 = 3 Gods
I thought Christians believed in monotheism?


No, You are wrong here: first You want to translate "theos" with "power", than "logos" with "power". Using one noun to translate 2 noun in 1 sentance is a bad idea... And in the end i trust that people who are translating bible know their job. Because they probobly know greek better than any of us here...

Fair point……. But if we do that - then we also aught to believe Moses & Devil = God Because the same indefinite form for God (Tontheos) was used to describe Moses and the devil in Exodus 7:1, Corinthians 4:4

If we follow what they say – i.e.
“…And the word was God”…… as the definite form (i.e.Hotheos not tontheos)
Then we aught to take the indefinite form used to describe the devil and Moses as definite as well i.e. Hotheos.
Hence Moses = God
Devil = God

why did they choose to take the indefinite form for God to be definite in one passage and not the other?


I never understand why there can't be any contradiction in revelation???

Read my post again inshallah (if God willing) you may understand
If there is contradictions in God’s revelation– then how does man differentiate falsehood from truth - how do we know whether it was a revelation from God or some man (men are prone to errors – just take a look at the bible).


take care duskiness:)
:w:
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

akr4m,

Christains have a belief.

You are not asked to believe it

But you cannot change it.

I understand the Muslim's belief. But I don't believe it.
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

Nlow that we are clear that Isa (Jesus) is not God, or 1/3 of God, which is obvious to most who read the bible or qur'an for themselves... particularly the words of Isa himself...

What exactly is blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Perhaps if the people are forgiven for confusing Isa with God, that those who confuse an angel Gabriel with the Holy Spirit might be forgiven?
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

cyberpi said:
Nlow that we are clear that Isa (Jesus) is not God, or 1/3 of God, which is obvious to most who read the bible or qur'an for themselves...


Why don't you ask the Vatican what they believe? Its not so obvious to them!
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

ok fair enough 2+1 = 3 Gods
I thought Christians believed in monotheism?
"Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God." - once more Athanasian Creed ;). I think You can't catch me here (or any other christian in fact). We can always make one step back, into Trinity dogma, which is difficult to be logicly underminded.


then we also aught to believe Moses & Devil = God Because the same indefinite form for God (Tontheos) was used to describe Moses and the devil in Exodus 7:1, Corinthians 4:4
(...)
Hence Moses = God
Devil = God
- maybe we ought to read it as metaphor??


why did they choose to take the indefinite form for God to be definite in one passage and not the other?[/QUOTE] - are You sure that definite/indefinite worked in greek like it does in english??


Read my post again inshallah (if God willing) you may understand
If there is contradictions in God’s revelation– then how does man differentiate falsehood from truth - how do we know whether it was a revelation from God or some man (men are prone to errors – just take a look at the bible).

- no, He seems no to be willing ;)
I'll try to present the way i view revalation, ok? But is's a metaphor ;)
So let's say God is a water, or a stream, and human a bottle. A very dirty one. If you would like to take a water from a stream (revaltion) than:
-thery is planty of water outside the bottle ("Now I know in part; then I shall know fully")
-water has to take the form of the bottle and is not in "natural shape"
- the bottle was dirty (culture, history, human emotions, language stractures...etc). So in the end, all you have to drink is some dirty water. (but as a christian i believe that 2000 years ago water - willingly - filled an clear bottle but You know this 'story") ;)

salaam :)
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

Why don't you ask the Vatican what they believe? Its not so obvious to them!
- Joe i warn You! One more such a post and You gona be adwarded with title "Defensor fidei" ;)
n.
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

AvarAllahNoor, You're right..."planty", "revalation", "revaltion". "Sorry" is simply not enough ;)
n.
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

I am relieved that nobody responded with the belief: angel Gabriel = Holy Spirit... which would be akin to saying that a man authored the Qur'an.

Since this is squarely the Trinity debate: What are the 3 rivers taught by the 3 Ibrahim religions? What virtue or quality does each focus in teaching?
 
Did Yahweh create Jesus?..If Yahweh had created Jesus then....... who is superior??

Some Christians say:
God has certain attributes which makes Him God. And if the Son also has these same attributes then that must make Jesus God.
:rollseyes
Is it like the argument that
if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s a duck ?


There are numerous accounts in the New Testament which deny Jesus’ divinity.
For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.
In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: “The Father is greater than I.” By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as “his God”, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.
Even in some of the writings of Paul, which the Church has taken to be sacred, Jesus is referred to as a “man”, distinct and different from God. In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” :?

:) There are verses in the Qur‘aan which confirm Prophet Muhammad’s humanity, in order to prevent his followers from elevating him to a divine or semi-divine status, as was done to Prophet Jesus.
 
Re: Did Yahweh create Jesus?..If Yahweh had created Jesus then....... who is superior??

You should really venture into Christian forums. That'd be real da'wah challenge. Here we too many experts already.
 
Re: Did Yahweh create Jesus?..If Yahweh had created Jesus then....... who is superior

There are numerous accounts in the New Testament which deny Jesus’ divinity.
For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.
In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: “The Father is greater than I.” By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as “his God”, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.
Even in some of the writings of Paul, which the Church has taken to be sacred, Jesus is referred to as a “man”, distinct and different from God. In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

No, the above passages do NOT deny Jesus' divinity. First, you must read them very carefully, and not read INTO them something that He did NOT say. Secondly, you must read them in the context of His earthly ministry in which He humbled Himself (positionally) when He left heaven to take on human form, submitting totally to the Father in everything He did, said, and thought (our perfect example). Finally, you must read them in the greater context of the entire New Testament with other passages that bear on the subject.

I've heard all these passages quoted by other people, specifically Jehovah's Witnesses, who use them to try to disprove Christ's Deity. As Peter said of others, they wrestle with the Scriptures "to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).

Let's look at the first passage. The rich young ruler addresses Jesus with a question, "Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He first replies, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but one, God." Now notice what He says and what He does NOT say. He says, God is the only one who is good. But He does NOT say that HE, Jesus, is NOT good. In fact, He says elsewhere, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Elsewhere He also affirms His sinlessness (John 8:46; see also 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5). So He is not saying that HE is not good. He is simply looking for an acknowledgment from the ruler that if he’s going to call Jesus "good" he must also recognize Him as God. And you will notice, the ruler does not do that. In verse 20 of Mark 10, he changes the address to simply, “Master.” And finally, if the ruler had recognized Jesus as God, he would have obeyed Him, doing everything He said. But he didn’t. Instead, he went away sorrowful (Matt. 19:22; Luke 18:23) and grieved (Mark 10:22).

In the second passage, John 14:28, Jesus says to His disciples (let’s look at the entire verse):

"You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.”

In His humbled state, in the form of a servant/slave as He walked this earth, Jesus rightly referred to the Father as “greater,” but in terms of what? Certainly at that time, in terms of position and glory, both of which Jesus had temporarily set aside for our sakes to be “made flesh” (John 1:1,14). You say, “By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God.” Correction, He distinguishes Himself from the Father. And no one says they aren’t distinguishable---they are indeed separate personages. But remember, BEFORE He was made flesh and dwelt among us, He was “the Word” Who was WITH God (the Father) and WAS God (i.e., Deity, in essence, substance and nature)—John 1:1. So, if He WAS GOD, or DEITY, He cannot ever cease to be that, even though He humbled Himself to take on the form of a servant/slave. So the “greater” cannot refer to deity, but rather position or glory.

In the second passage, we see Jesus in speaking to Mary Magdalene referring to His ascending to “my Father and your Father and my God and your God.” I’ve had Jehovah’s Witnesses slide up to this verse, verse 17 of John 20, after being unable to adequately explain away the clear statement of verse 28 where Thomas addresses the risen Christ with, “My Lord and my God,” which Christ does not correct or deny. Because there is no correction, we can conclude that the Father is Thomas’ God (from verse 17) as well as Christ is Thomas’ God (v. 28). Does Thomas have two Gods? No, because the Trinity says three Persons in ONE God.

But the real concern with John 20:17 is that Christ Himself refers to the Father as “my God.” I used to wonder about that until I saw Hebrews 1:8, in which the Father in speaking TO THE SON says, “Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.” So here we see the Father calling the Son “God”! And if that’s so, the Son can refer to the Father as “my God” and the Father can refer to the Son in the same way, or at least as “God.” So, to me, John 20:17 is not a problem. By the way, while you’re looking at Hebrews, chapter 1, for verse 8, look at verse 6 too. There you have the Father telling all the angels to worship the Son. Now, if Jesus is just a man, how can angels be told to worship Him? Only God is to be worshipped, right? Right. But since the Son is God, that’s not a problem either.

Finally, Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5 says “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” The reference to “the man” Christ Jesus is referring to His humanity in which He lived a perfect, sinless life, thereby qualifying Him to BE our mediator between a holy, righteous God and us sinful men. It is not because Jesus is God that qualifies Jesus to be our mediator. It is because He was a sinless MAN that qualifies Him. He is our sinless, perfect High Priest Who is not only the mediator or intercessor between God and us for our sins’ sake, but in fact is the very Offering for sin Himself at the Cross. Only as a MAN could He die and shed His blood as an atonement for sins. Consider Hebrews 10:10-14:

10. . . . we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13. from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

So Christ is the Offering or “the Lamb of God” who takes away the sin of the world, as John the Baptist said (John 1:29), as well as our advocate, intercessor, and mediator with the Father (1 John 2:1).

Now, if the angels are told to worship Him, can we do any less? Remember, we are to honor Him just as, or to the same extent that, we honor the Father Who sent him (John 5:23).

Peace
 
NO, Jesus is not GOD, he is appraised 2 b the son of God acording to CHRISTIANS...
:sl:

No and Yes. He IS God, according to Christians. And He is the Son of God, according to Christians. If you need an explanation of that, I can copy and paste from where I explained it before. I don't have a link for it.

Peace
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

I’ve answered this before within this forum don’t know which thread though, anyways I’ll give it another go

The Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form Hotheos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form Tontheos, which means ‘a god’. Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” Therefore, if the Word was a ‘god’ in the literal sense, it would mean that there were two Gods and not one.



The Greek word for "God" used in second clause of the verse “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form ho theos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the third clause “and the Word was God”, the definite article "ho" (=the) is missing, so the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form theos, which means ‘'God". There are rules of Greek grammar that explain that. Let me see if I can articulate them.

First, in the Greek language, there is no indefinite article, like "a". For a sentence to be translated with an "a" the translator may look for the definite article "the" or "ho" and if none is there, he might render it, for example, "boy" or "a boy" depending on the context; he would not render it "the boy".

Secondly, in the third clause of John 1:1, the word order in the original Greek is literally, "and God was the Word" But the subject of the entire verse is "the Word" not God. So to make it clear that "the Word" is the subject, there can be no "the" before "God" or it would be uncertain what the subject of the clause is and what the predicate nominative is. That is, it would be literally, "and the God was the Word." In that case God and Word would be interchangeable and we would not know which is the subject and which is the predicate nominative. The definite article "the" is left out before "God" not so a translator would render it "a God" or "a god" but so that we know "the Word" is the subject and "God" is the predicate nominative.

So, if "the Word" is the subject and "God" is the predicate nominative, what does the clause mean when it says, "and the Word was God"? The use of the definite article and "God" in the second clause, "and the Word was with [the] God" shows the distinction of persons, one WITH the other---two persons, the Word (Jesus before the incarnation) and the Father.

But in the third clause, "the Word was God," the word "God" is a descriptive noun telling us not WHO the Word is, but WHAT the Word is. He is GOD or DEITY, as to His essence, substance or nature. He is not the Father, with whom He is, but He is the same as the Father in terms of His essence, substance or nature. He is fully God or Deity, as the Father is, but He is not the Father. He is a separate personage, equal to the Father in His essence, substance or nature. But since that essence, substance, or nature is the SAME for both the Father and the Word, there are not TWO Gods, but ONE.

Consequently, John 1:1, can accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Peace
 
Re: Clear proof that Isa(Jesus) Is not a God!

k whats the meaning of the name "nimrod"........... (Is it King Namrood.... who was against Prophet Ibrahim Alaihis salaam)
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top