Islam and Communism?
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czgibson
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Greetings,
Because:
Marx's brand of Communism basically assumes atheism at the outset.
Peace
Because:
Marx's brand of Communism basically assumes atheism at the outset.
Peace
Trumble
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The OP did say "in the Marxist sense", and for a reason. Marx's vision of communism actually has remarkably little resemblance to any attempt to put socialism/communism into practice in the 'real' world by the likes of Stalin and Mao. Hitler was not a socialist or communist, despite the use of the term 'National Socialism'.
I think we might have to search somewhat wider than Islamic websites for a sensible answer to this one, unless we have somebody present sufficiently acquainted with both Islam and Marx. I find a couple of articles by a Professor Mahmoud Youssef Shawarbi Dr Muhammed Fazlur Rahman Ansari but being charitable they were either concentrating on those 'real world' versions or, being rather less so, simply haven't got much of a clue about Marx.
Islam verses communism
Islam versus Marxism
It might 'basically assume' it but IMHO it certainly doesn't require it. I know rather less about Islam than I do Marx, but personally I don't see any great contradiction. Although Marx was certainly a determined atheist his philosophy is not necessarily atheistic.. he attempts to show only how and why theistic belief evolved and why it is no longer necessary. I think Lenin, another determined atheist, was the first to claim that atheism was a "natural and inseparable portion of Marxism".
czgibson
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Trumble
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You shouldn't be, at least in regard to the question that was actually asked. The only versions of 'communism' and 'socialism' I could find referred to at a selection of Islamic (and Christian) websites were not those of Marx, which is why, I'm certain, RLG594 was careful to draw the distinction.
Well it appears Muslims have more misconceptions about Communists then communists have about Muslims.
To start with Hitler was actually a christian, he mandated creationism be taught in schools etc.
As for Marx, Lenin Stalin, alot of people dont know it, but communists are allowed to select a religion, if that religion is willing to have them, that is it accepts their ideas as moral. Marxism is Materialist, which is an Atheist was of analysing the world true, but a Materialist doesn't as a consequence have to be an atheist, he just has to be able to consider things on the assumption that God (Allah) will not change them on a whim.
For example, if you are considering jumping off a building, you can not make your decision based on the fact that Allah can reverse the laws of gravity and save you, you must assume that if you jump you will fall.
That being said I know plenty of Communists that would love to find religion, and given the fact that the whole base of communist idealology revolves around fighting oppression, exploitation (unjustly extracting profit from a worker), and yes financialization (interest banking, credit, and insurance included), I would imagine they would be quite open to Islam.
My point is while Islam is clearly not against gaining off the back of a worker (though on a small mutual scale, not the industrial scale of today), I have yet to see Islamic idealology forbid communal, or collective living.
In fact I would go as far to say that the reason more Communists, especially in non-Communist countries do not take a stronger stand in support of religion, lies in the fact that religion has been relentlessly hostile to them and has made it clear that they are not welcome/wanted. This just pushes them more to the militant godless camp as opposed to the personal choice camp.
To start with Hitler was actually a christian, he mandated creationism be taught in schools etc.
As for Marx, Lenin Stalin, alot of people dont know it, but communists are allowed to select a religion, if that religion is willing to have them, that is it accepts their ideas as moral. Marxism is Materialist, which is an Atheist was of analysing the world true, but a Materialist doesn't as a consequence have to be an atheist, he just has to be able to consider things on the assumption that God (Allah) will not change them on a whim.
For example, if you are considering jumping off a building, you can not make your decision based on the fact that Allah can reverse the laws of gravity and save you, you must assume that if you jump you will fall.
That being said I know plenty of Communists that would love to find religion, and given the fact that the whole base of communist idealology revolves around fighting oppression, exploitation (unjustly extracting profit from a worker), and yes financialization (interest banking, credit, and insurance included), I would imagine they would be quite open to Islam.
My point is while Islam is clearly not against gaining off the back of a worker (though on a small mutual scale, not the industrial scale of today), I have yet to see Islamic idealology forbid communal, or collective living.
In fact I would go as far to say that the reason more Communists, especially in non-Communist countries do not take a stronger stand in support of religion, lies in the fact that religion has been relentlessly hostile to them and has made it clear that they are not welcome/wanted. This just pushes them more to the militant godless camp as opposed to the personal choice camp.
My point being, a Communist Party of the Leninist type has no problem with members choosing to adopt religion, so people like me who have an interest in Islam, are welcome to have that interest so long as they do not force it on the rest of the party. That is as long as the political objective is not compromised.
"If that is so, why do we not declare in our Programme that we are atheists? Why do we not forbid Christians and other believers in God to join our Party?
The answer to this question will serve to explain the very important difference in the way the question of religion is presented by the bourgeois democrats and the Social-Democrats." - Lenin
the Question here is, is it a crime or a sin for someone who puts Allah at the center of their personal Idealology to still hold on to an association with a group that has identical goals and morals but that holds them without putting God in the center of it all?
"If that is so, why do we not declare in our Programme that we are atheists? Why do we not forbid Christians and other believers in God to join our Party?
The answer to this question will serve to explain the very important difference in the way the question of religion is presented by the bourgeois democrats and the Social-Democrats." - Lenin
the Question here is, is it a crime or a sin for someone who puts Allah at the center of their personal Idealology to still hold on to an association with a group that has identical goals and morals but that holds them without putting God in the center of it all?
Trumble
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I'm not at all sure you are talking about Marx, either? The fundamental problem for him was not so much exploitation (although that was/is a problem) or financialization, nor "fighting oppression", but the estrangement of workers from the activity and product of their labour, as described in his theory of alienation. In his solution to that too, though, I see no fundamental conflict with Islam.
I do stand corrected (beaten, defeated)
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Well of course there are sectarian differences between different sorts of Marxists, different interpretations.
I see the revolutionary aspect, economic emancipation, as the core of Marxist theory.
The ending of the private extraction of surplus value, that is giving workers the full fruits of their labour, as opposed to profiting off them to me signals the most important bit of Marx's theory. With this of course comes the concept of working for the common good as opposed to onesself, which is what Marx's vision of the future is all about.
"History calls those men the greatest who have ennobled themselves by working for the common good; experience acclaims as happiest the man who has made the greatest number of people happy." -Karl Marx
There does not appear to be anything in Islam that speaks out against this concept, but Islam of course doesn't appear to speak out against ones right to accumulate wealth off the backs of his employees either, so long as he pays them their mutually agreed upon wages on time.
Trumble
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Islam is firmly rooted in its time and place of origin (he says, from one atheist to another!) In this context it's interesting to compare it with Christianity which offers rather less in the way of direct practical instruction on how to live, and hence is rather more amenable to socialism of one sort or another. Indeed, personally, I think Jesus' teachings as far as we know them are inherently socialistic although many of the firmest Christian believers, particularly in the US, would go to any lengths to deny it. Regardless, there are distinct and influential Christian socialist/communist movements particularly in South America while, as far as I am aware, there are no real Islamic equivalents.
indeed Christianity is more friendly to Socialism.
Read about the Apostles, book of Acts, chapter 4 was interesting.
The only rebuttal of course a communist with an interest in Islam would make is that:
God does not impregnate women, have children, or a 3 way split personality.
brothers and sisters,peace be upon those who follow righteous guidance to the people of the book, and hi to everyone else.
is islam and communism compatable?
they are totally incompatable and i will inshallah (God willing) explain why.
first of all, though some communist parties claim you can belong to another way of life, it is impossible to belong to islam and communism at the same time because islam demands complete submission.
Muslims obey the shariah and the book of Allah and the sunnah of his messenger, if they instead obey secular law and a communist manifesto and the thoughts of mao, stalin and lenin then they have become disbelievers.
this is because Allah says in the Quran,
The right to legislate belongs only to Allah
Surah Yusuf, verse 40
this is clear, so if give this right to any other than Allah by voluntarily choosing them and putting them in authority over us to make their laws other than the laws of Allah then we will have disbelieved.
In Bukhari and Muslim, in a hadith narrated by Muadth Ibn Jabal (ra), that the Messenger Muhammad (saws) said: ‘The right of Allah over his servant is to submit to him exclusively and not to associate anything with him’.
This is further backed up when Allah says in the Quran,
We sent to every Ummah a messenger to command the people to submit to Allah exclusively and to reject Taghoot.
Surah An-Nahl 16:36
They are other evidences also but this should be sufficient and Abdullah is trying to hit all the keys so i will leave it to others if people are needing further evidences.
peace be upon those who follow righteous guidance to the people of the book, and hi to everyone else.
is islam and communism compatable?
they are totally incompatable and i will inshallah (God willing) explain why.
first of all, though some communist parties claim you can belong to another way of life, it is impossible to belong to islam and communism at the same time because islam demands complete submission.
Muslims obey the shariah and the book of Allah and the sunnah of his messenger, if they instead obey secular law and a communist manifesto and the thoughts of mao, stalin and lenin then they have become disbelievers.
this is because Allah says in the Quran,
The right to legislate belongs only to Allah
Surah Yusuf, verse 40
this is clear, so if give this right to any other than Allah by voluntarily choosing them and putting them in authority over us to make their laws other than the laws of Allah then we will have disbelieved.
In Bukhari and Muslim, in a hadith narrated by Muadth Ibn Jabal (ra), that the Messenger Muhammad (saws) said: ‘The right of Allah over his servant is to submit to him exclusively and not to associate anything with him’.
This is further backed up when Allah says in the Quran,
We sent to every Ummah a messenger to command the people to submit to Allah exclusively and to reject Taghoot.
Surah An-Nahl 16:36
They are other evidences also but this should be sufficient and Abdullah is trying to hit all the keys so i will leave it to others if people are needing further evidences.
So muslims can't be democrats either? Does being a communist necessarily disobey the Qu'ran? Communists don't worship their founding fathers, just respect them.
Believe in Allah and obey him. The evidence I seek is how is it not possible to support the basic tenants of Socialism without disobeying Allah?
In essense how is upholding certain political idealology belonging to another way of life?
If you want some help on this I can point out at least 1 or 2 things it can be argued Allah would frown upon.
"3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels."
A communist idea that each individual should have to work for his wealth, and that when he dies what he gathered together in this world should go to public charity as opposed to his children.
And the idea that people that abandon their country/ defect, should not be able to claim ownership to the property they abandoned. It should like the Inheritence go to the public/ the poor.
Also note this thread has no hostile intent, if my continuation of ths discussion if percieved to be this I appologize, I am merely attempting to learn what a communist such as myself would have to change about himself (his thinking) to become a Muslim, if anything at all.
Another point I would like to make is the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades, National Liberation Brigades, Jihad Jibril Brigades, and others in Palestine are all Communist, yet associate themselves with Islam as well.
Nearly all of their members are Muslim, and are in good standing with Hamas and Al Aqsa. How is this so?
yes muslims cannot be democrats either, we cannot be both a submitter to the laws of Allah and the laws made by man at the same time.
doesnt matter it communism, socialism, liberalism, or whichever ism you like.
in islam we are told to disbelieve in the taughoot (false gods) and then believe in Allah.
you say you dont worship marx but in obeying him instead of Allah what are you doing?
let me show you a verse of the Quran,
They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).
Surah Tawbah (chapter of repentence), verse 31
now some of the companions of muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who had been people of the book before becomming muslim asked how did they take them as partners?
to which muhammad (pbuh) said didnt they follow them when they told them to do other than commanded by Allah?
so when Islam says x, we cannot say y, if we do then we have disbelieved.
islam is a total system of living, it covers everything, including society and government, law and judgement, economic and charitable, there is no aspect of life that it does not touch upon.
it is a complete system in a way no other system has ever achieved.
let me ask you a question, do you believe in a creator?
Yet I contend that there is nothing Islam tells us to do that communism does not. They do not run counter to one another, save in a few minor places, in which one can clearly choose Allah over anything written by Marx and still call himself a communist.
As for a creator I'm undecided, how am I to know? I'm just Robert. Though I would of course like to find out.
S1aveofA11ah
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But you have as your religion: Atheist not agnostic
Agnosticism and Atheism often overlap, for proof see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
They all fall into 1 big group of disbelievers, with some just disbelieving more or less then others.