Islam and Communism?
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Well, this is a noble mainstream Idea. But Capitalism as you know it would still have to radically change to be compatible with Islam as well.
The Financial crisis today is just a minor bump in the credit market.
Removing Interest banking and Insurance would not qualify as a minor bump.
A world of Islam would have a very different face then the world of Capitalism, as what you know as 'Haraam' is in fact what makes the modern economy tick.
You can't remove the batteries and still expect the mechanism to work.
The choices, from what I understand become very limited, none of them qualify as 'mainstream' by todays standards. Communism though it may appear to be inferior to a system that provides its citizens with a better standard of living by exploiting human beings in 3rd world countries and doing amazing financial magic tricks with Riba as a propt, becomes in my opinion one of the remaining viable options in a world of Islam. This of course takes into account that noone has presented evidence that Socialism (in some form) would be entirely ruled out in an all-Muslim world.
RLG594,
i think there are more than minor differences, besides which it is not really that important how simular or different things are, let me explain...
The Commander of the Faithful, `Umar b. al-Khattâb, relates that he heard Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) say: "Actions are but by intentions and every man will have only what he intended. So whoever emigrated for Allah and His Messenger, then his emigration was for Allah and His Messenger. And whoever emigrated to attain something of this world or to marry a woman, then his emigration was for whatever reason he emigrated."
Recorded in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim
so it would not matter if the whole of the way of life someone followed was indentical in almost every respect, still they would enter the hellfire if they did not do it for the sake of Allah.
in islam we are demanded to make total submission, this means more than praying, fasting, in a certain way.
it means everything in our lives should be done through this divine way, it cannot be otherwise otherwise we are not really submitting ourselves.
the root of the shariah, the divine given way of life is from God, he knows us best and we cannot reject that at all in our hearts, or through our tongues or our actions.
this is why i asked you whether you believed in a creator, because if you do then it is easy to choose between islam and communism, one is from man and the other from the word of God and his prophet (pbuh).
so the root of communism is disbelief, the root of islam is correct belief in God, you cannot ever reject the first for he later in any way.
We sent to every Ummah a messenger to command the people to submit to Allah exclusively and to reject Taghoot.
Surah An-Nahl 16:36
Now what is Taghoot? well it could literally mean a false god, a wooden or clay or stone idol, but it could also be a false idiology like democracy or communism.
Allah also says in the Quran,
Whoever rejects Taghoot and believes in Allah then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold.
Surah al Baqarah (Chapter of the Cow) verse 256
You see how here Allah tells people to disbelief in false gods and ways first then tells them to believe in Allah?
it is like the declaration of faith, there is none worthy of worship expect Allah.
first the negation and then the affirmation.
islam is also a political alliagence, it is to belong to a brotherhood of people the world over, loving them and wanting the best for them more than all others, loving them for the sake of the creator and being loved in the same way in return.
we also teach that a believer is better than a disbeliever, so where as you might be able to look at the surface laws and say there are similarities but we cannot say then are same as they have fundemental differences.
i think there are more than minor differences, besides which it is not really that important how simular or different things are, let me explain...
The Commander of the Faithful, `Umar b. al-Khattâb, relates that he heard Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) say: "Actions are but by intentions and every man will have only what he intended. So whoever emigrated for Allah and His Messenger, then his emigration was for Allah and His Messenger. And whoever emigrated to attain something of this world or to marry a woman, then his emigration was for whatever reason he emigrated."
Recorded in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim
so it would not matter if the whole of the way of life someone followed was indentical in almost every respect, still they would enter the hellfire if they did not do it for the sake of Allah.
in islam we are demanded to make total submission, this means more than praying, fasting, in a certain way.
it means everything in our lives should be done through this divine way, it cannot be otherwise otherwise we are not really submitting ourselves.
the root of the shariah, the divine given way of life is from God, he knows us best and we cannot reject that at all in our hearts, or through our tongues or our actions.
this is why i asked you whether you believed in a creator, because if you do then it is easy to choose between islam and communism, one is from man and the other from the word of God and his prophet (pbuh).
so the root of communism is disbelief, the root of islam is correct belief in God, you cannot ever reject the first for he later in any way.
We sent to every Ummah a messenger to command the people to submit to Allah exclusively and to reject Taghoot.
Surah An-Nahl 16:36
Now what is Taghoot? well it could literally mean a false god, a wooden or clay or stone idol, but it could also be a false idiology like democracy or communism.
Allah also says in the Quran,
Whoever rejects Taghoot and believes in Allah then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold.
Surah al Baqarah (Chapter of the Cow) verse 256
You see how here Allah tells people to disbelief in false gods and ways first then tells them to believe in Allah?
it is like the declaration of faith, there is none worthy of worship expect Allah.
first the negation and then the affirmation.
islam is also a political alliagence, it is to belong to a brotherhood of people the world over, loving them and wanting the best for them more than all others, loving them for the sake of the creator and being loved in the same way in return.
we also teach that a believer is better than a disbeliever, so where as you might be able to look at the surface laws and say there are similarities but we cannot say then are same as they have fundemental differences.
So detaching the Marx from Marxism, and still holding that Communism (as in communal living, worker control and sharing of the means of production, etc. the ideas), but doing it in the name of Allah is both possible and acceptable.
An example of the central arguement I have been stabbing at here is something like the following:
Allah clearly saw nothing wrong with slavery, yet does Allah forbid us from supporting a society in which slavery is Illegal, or on the same note does he forbid us from choosing to reject slavery ourselves?
Are we mandated to be slavemasters?
If so then I take the arguement that communism and Islam are incompatible to heart, if not I hope you see exactly what it is I am implying and why.
Even here there are problems, for example yes there is a simularity in that in islam tennant farming is a forbidden practice as it is exploitative of the poor just like usary (which i understand communism also forbids)
but the solution is not collective ownership, production, distribution etc.
in islam the ruling was given by the second rightly guided leader after muhammad (pbuh) who was called umar ibn al khattab and he would take back any land that couldnt be used by a man and his immediate household and give it to the poor.
as well as this the system of zakaah and other charity sees the poor looked after in islam so no need for such systems communism invented.
however if a person wished to own the land, work it and then give all of it away he is perfectly at liberty to do so and this would be a praiseworthy act but it isnt expected or insisted upon (and we saw what happened in soviet russia when it was insisted upon)
RE slavery, if you are muslim you dont have to own a slave, but you cannot say slavery is wrong or should be out lawed as it is clearly allowed under certain circumstances by Allah and his messenger (pbuh).
but also, remember a slave in islam has more rights than a servant in some ways and is treated simular to a member of the family, the way a slave is treated is nothing like the slavery of the western model in america or the slavery to the land in the east where the peasants are owned by the landowner.
This was an extremely helpfull clarification.
As for Tenant farming it is indeed illegal under any Communist system.
All land as you say that was too large for one man was not given to the poor but rather turned into a community or collective farm. The villagers and former farmers all must share the land, and work as a team to farm it, and at the end of the day each person gets a fair portion of the wealth created by said farm that matches up to the amount of work they put in.
The only reason small farms were allowed was because the poor peasentry grew (and former tenant farmers under serfdom) afraid of te 'state' taking away their land. They did not wish to share their land.
Naturally the communists understood this and established a system in which they could farm their own land, and sell the crops to the state, to be distributed accordingly.
This system does infact work, it's tried and true, in spite of seeing a few roadblocks (particuarly from the former landlords and rich farmers who resented their land being collectivized).
I still have 1 question however. Though the traditional Islamic system works no doubt, how do you deal with the industries that shut down without being permitted to consume usary?
Large sectors of the economy would shut down, leaving a huge chunk of the populace unemployed.
Most of these would be willing able bodied men, who must work under Islam. How do you find a way to put them to work without socializing or nationalizing any industry?
Certainly some degree of communism is required in this respect.
But being a muslim doesn't disallow people from being a capitalist?
Most muslims live their capitalist life styles and 'benefit' from capitalism..I think the Islamic life style is similar to communism, except some major differences ofcourse. The first muslims lived a very basic communal life.They shared their benefits with the needies always without calculating..They always viewed each other as their real brother and helped..etc These are some of the basic tenets of Islam and maybe communists used them in developing their ideologies.
I am a muslim and although I'm not a communist, have sympathy for socialism/communism more than capitalism.
Most muslims live their capitalist life styles and 'benefit' from capitalism..I think the Islamic life style is similar to communism, except some major differences ofcourse. The first muslims lived a very basic communal life.They shared their benefits with the needies always without calculating..They always viewed each other as their real brother and helped..etc These are some of the basic tenets of Islam and maybe communists used them in developing their ideologies.
I am a muslim and although I'm not a communist, have sympathy for socialism/communism more than capitalism.
^second that mostly. there is no problem following a social, political or economic theory/ideology as long as it doesn't disagree with Islam's main tenants,ie. worship god alone etc.
also,the story of the companion of the prophet Abu Tharr Al Ghafary is a very good example here.
also,the story of the companion of the prophet Abu Tharr Al Ghafary is a very good example here.
the problems i was referring to were the mass starvations in both soviet russia and communist china when they attempted land reform, they were a little more serious than a few road blocks, or at least were for the people that died anyway.
as for what would islam do with such a large body of able men? well as you know yourself i have no doubt, the capitalist west will not permit other idealogies to exist if they can avoid it, every time an islamic government comes about it is stamped out so those able bodied men are going to be needed elsewhere.
The mass starvations of which you speak are very distorted. There is much more behind them then you think.
Bear in mind the same 'scholars' who give you your information on Communism, give the rest of the country their information about Islam.
Every group ever to be considered an 'Enemy' of the western world has had evidence fabricated against them or stories made up, and made to appear to be truth.
There needs to be more evidence put forward as to what is meant by the 'communitys business'.
look at Sayyed Qutb
i have no doubt that i am lied to and fed distorted information everytime i pick up a book, for example who knows the british empire invented concentration camps or that winston churchill when secretary of war instigated a kurdish uprising so they could try out their new chemical weapons dropped from bi-planes.
so yes history is distorted but i also know the same will be true with you and communist authors. the trick is to read a wide range of different viewpoints and find the middle that seems most likely.
as long as you didnt actually want to practice islam.
Keltoi
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The starvations under Soviet communism and Chairman Mao are well documented from the people themselves. One can say that this was a symptom of bad interpretation and implementation of communist ideology, but the reality remains that where communism was attempted it turned into something hellish.
I think his point was that in both Russia and China other factors were in play. To pretend that Imperial Russia was some lovely place that was turned into a poor place after those dastardly communists took over is to ignore the fact of what a hell on earth much of Russia was for most of the peasant/free serf population before hand or any of the positive benefits of communism such as significantly wider access to education. I mean there is a reason Chekhov, who was not a religious man, wrote about the Russian need for something to believe in just to get through life.
That's not to say the communist experiments in Russian and China did not have terrible consequences, but more factors were involved than a *******ized Leninist ideology. Also many Russians have a more positive memory of communism than you do.
Just to be clear I'm not a communist and really have no sympathy for Marxism or any derivatives of Hegelism or any form of historicism.