Islam and Communism?

[Al-Zaara]

as long as you didnt actually want to practice islam.

No, they were quite free to do so. Things were really not as simplified as people think they were.

Nonetheless, I'd say Tita came the closest to an "communism-paradise".

 

[wth1257]

Things were really not as simplified as people think they were.

They rarely are

 

[alcurad]

not to go off topic, but this binary capitalist X communist doesn't even exist as it were, there are quasi-capitalist and quasi communist models. what is China for example following, or Russia or Europe or even the US, is it really that white and black..
the current economic crisis not to mention the ones before it are good indications of the holes in the capitalist leaning model.
I'd say 'real' capitalism is the most cut-throat competition model you could ever find, I'm not well versed in communist/marxist literature to add to wth1275 said^.

 

[Imam]

Also many Russians have a more positive memory of communism than you do. .

Exactly ...


The hell of communism is much better than the paradise of the rotten,inhuman capitalism.....with its evil values of profiteering, greed, selfishness, and hoarding.

 

[Trumble]

The hell of communism is much better than the paradise of the rotten,inhuman capitalism.....with its evil values of profiteering, greed, selfishness, and hoarding.

Communism as Marx foretold it has never even been attempted. The necessary social and, in particular, technological circumstances that would have made it possible never arose. I don't accept the view that 'communism' as practiced by Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot among others has anything to recommend it above capitalism as practiced contemporaneously with those regimes.

However, the essential difference is that while various attempts to practice 'communism' failed because of much the problems as excessive capitalism, greed and corruption, as well a large helpings of incompetence those things are not inherent to communism. Not only can communism exist without them but, theoretically at least, it actually excludes the greed and corruption as nobody has anything to gain from them, having all they actually want (note, want, not just need) already. The same is not true of capitalism. Corruption is perhaps avoidable, as in incompetence (not that you would think that looking around at the moment) but greed is capitalism's driving force and it cannot exist without it. It is the ready availability of greed that has made capitalism so spectacularly successful... it relies on the majority of people being what they are as opposed to what they should be.

 

[Chuck]

There needs to be more evidence put forward as to what is meant by the 'communitys business'.

Thats all there is. But in Islam there is no such things as community owns all the business and share profits equally among all people i.e. "common ownership," which goes against main the tenets of communism. In Islam individuals and organizations doesn't share what they own, however, they do pay poor tax in the form of zakat which is less than what you have in socialist countries. But there is fundamental difference between zakat and tax in socialist countries. While rate of zakat is very low but it is levied on the wealth and not the profits, so each year small percentage of wealth is distributed from the rich to poor rather than just from profits from each year.

 

[aamirsaab]

Trumble has a point; capitalism accepts human greed and that's why it is still around. Though, should point out that it was greed (amongst other variables) that led to the credit crunch....

Islam and communism together in arms? I think it's more closer to capitalism than communism since there is no common ownership as Chuck rightly pointed out. However, whilst the business side of Islam is more capitalist, there is a supposed to be a strong level of cohesion between the residants, which is more closer to communism.

Really, though, the emphasis is placed more on ethical business as opposed to a complete economic theory: Be honest in your trading, try to minimise asymmetric information, don't push too hard on your debtors and pay your creditors on time. Just good business ethics really.

 

[RLG594]

Trumble has a point; capitalism accepts human greed and that's why it is still around. Though, should point out that it was greed (amongst other variables) that led to the credit crunch....

Islam and communism together in arms? I think it's more closer to capitalism than communism since there is no common ownership as Chuck rightly pointed out. However, whilst the business side of Islam is more capitalist, there is a supposed to be a strong level of cohesion between the residants, which is more closer to communism.

Really, though, the emphasis is placed more on ethical business as opposed to a complete economic theory: Be honest in your trading, try to minimise asymmetric information, don't push too hard on your debtors and pay your creditors on time. Just good business ethics really.

Yet what happends under Islamic law when you are caught NOT having good Business ethics? :-[

 

[Chuck]

Yet what happends under Islamic law when you are caught NOT having good Business ethics? :-[

chopping some hands off?

 

[RLG594]

Truth be told Islam is closer the Naziism in Economic theory (obviously not so much in Social Theory)

I mean this in no offensive way; but from what I hear so far it's true. But instead of Christianity, and 'Aryan' (Roman) cultural revival, It's Islam and Muslim Cultural Revival. National Socialism, that is unbreakable faith and a complete spiritual and moral Unity of Muslim society.

Naziism like Islam promotes small business and splits big business up amongst the 'Aryan' (Muslim) poor and middle classes, to be run under Nazi Supervision. (fair business practice is also rigidly enforced.)

Nazi Economic Policy in a nutshell.

The Title is 'Death to Lies!'

The Top of the snake (the most dangerous part) reads 'High Finance Capital' (Usury, mass exploitation, insurance, and all the things that goes with it), and the bottom (the underlying threat) reads 'Marxism'.

"We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease or sale at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders." - Adolf Hitler

"Fascism transcends democracy and liberalism; its regenerative action is based on granite foundations: the idea of hierarchy, of the participation of the whole population in the life of the State, social justice in the equitable distribution of rights and duties, the infusion of public life with moral principles, the affirmation of religious values, the prestige of the family, the ethical interpretation of the ideas of order, authority and liberty. In the light of this transcendence Europe will be able to find its way to enter a new phase of History."- Asvero Gravelli

"Life comes from God and returns to God. All life and all races follow God's ordinances. No people and no race can ignore them. We want the German youth to again recognize the religious nature of life. They must realize that God wants the individual as well as the whole people, and that they lose contact with life when they lose contact with God! God and nation are the two foundations of the life of the individual and the community. We want no shallow and superficial piety, rather a deep faith that God guides the world, that he controls it, and a consciousness of the relationship between God and each individual, and between God and the live of the people and the fatherland. The National Socialist state will promote such a deeply religious educational system. We want parents to support and strengthen this by honesty and by good example." - Adolf Hitler

full text and info found here:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/understanding_fascism.htm

Like I said of course Muslims have different views in Reguards to race and such, but there appears to be MUCH more similarity to Naziism then Communism from what's been said in this thread thus far.

 

[RLG594]

minor typo in the first sentence, the= to

 

[Imam]

Truth be told Islam is closer the Naziism .

http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/Preface.Hitler.html#READING

 

[RLG594]

http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/Preface.Hitler.html#READING

As a heads up is it meant to be pro or anti Nazi?

 

[Chuck]

Like I said of course Muslims have different views in Reguards to race and such, but there appears to be MUCH more similarity to Naziism then Communism from what's been said in this thread thus far

Can you put in coherent and point to point way what exactly are the similarities, rather than some mambo jumbo?

So far similarities i can extract from your post:
(1) promotes small business and splits big business up amongst the 'Aryan' (Muslim) poor and middle classes
[where did you get that idea?]

(2) to be run under Nazi Supervision. (fair business practice is also rigidly enforced.)
[this is humorous as if businesses normally don't run under supervision by govt or any other authority]

(3) 'High Finance Capital' (Usury, mass exploitation, insurance, and all the things that goes with it)
[I don't know if Hitler was against interest or not. But usury is unlawful in united states too. Banking interest has certain limits before it comes usury and unlawful. There is nothing against insurance in Islam.]

Anyway what is your point if there are something similar with capitalism, socialism, Nazi German fiscal system, etc...?

You are trying to make some false dilemma and red herring?

 

[Fishman]

Truth be told Islam is closer the Naziism in Economic theory (obviously not so much in Social Theory)

Hitler also believed in seatbelts and houses and being kind to animals! OMG America is Nazi!

Playing the Hitler card is silly. Nazis were evil because of their racist, fascist and authoritarian social ideas. Not because they opposed both Communism and greed, sentiments that most people probably hold.

 

[RLG594]

Can you put in coherent and point to point way what exactly are the similarities, rather than some mambo jumbo?

So far similarities you have shown:
(1) promotes small business and splits big business up amongst the 'Aryan' (Muslim) poor and middle classes
[where did you get that idea?]
(2) to be run under Nazi Supervision. (fair business practice is also rigidly enforced.)
[this is humorous as if businesses normally don't run under supervision by govt or any other authority]
(3) 'High Finance Capital' (Usury, mass exploitation, insurance, and all the things that goes with it)
[I don't know if Hitler was against interest or not. But usury is unlawful in united states too. Banking interest has certain limits before it comes usury and unlawful. There is nothing against insurance in Islam.]

Anyway what is your point if there are something similar with capitalism, socialism, Nazi German fiscal system, etc...?

You are trying to make some false dilemma and red herring?

1. Isam IS a system of small business. big business can not thrive under Islams moral guidelines and without Riba in modern society. Business would go under, and if it's not socialized it has to be broken down and redistributed. There aren't other workable options.

2. But Islam affects every aspect of life, including government and the economy.

If Islamic law isn't enforced in business, then what purpose does it serve?

3. I had heard that most Muslims were of the opinion that Insurance can be considered a type of Gambling, and is an unlawfull industry. Save like healthcare, which should be free anyway.

Again I mean no offence, but the Nazi German economic system bears more resemblence to Islam then Communism.

I ask you not jump to conclusions on this, it's not a red herring at all, or an aggressive arguement, but rather a neutral one.

As I said Nazi Social Policy (Meaning their idealology on race and such) was obviously different from Islam, I'm talking about sheer economics, and a few aspects of the legal system as well as their system of government.

 

[RLG594]

Hitler also believed in seatbelts and houses and being kind to animals! OMG America is Nazi!

Playing the Hitler card is silly. Nazis were evil because of their racist, fascist and authoritarian social ideas. Not because they opposed both Communism and greed, sentiments that most people probably hold.

Not all their Ideals were authoritarian however, nor is Facism in a whole nother world compared to Islam. Depending of course on how you define your terms.

Also like I said it's not a card.

I'm objective and neutral, which means not only do I have to be fair, but I can not refrain from pointing out something because of prejudice.

I do not think the Nazis were 'Evil' in the full sense of the word, they just had some ideas on race I did not agree with. Take the racial aspect (which i propose is perhaps the 1 thing in which Islamic law and NSDAP policy greatly differ) out and look at everything else, and there is very little evil about them.

 

[Chuck]

1. Isam IS a system of small business. big business can not thrive under Islams moral guidelines and without Riba in modern society. Business would go under, and if it's not socialized it has to be broken down and redistributed. There aren't other workable options.

Riba is not needed to run multi-billion dollar businesses. Many multi-billion dollar businesses are operating without riba in Saudia, UAE, Qatar, Iran. There are many ways to raise capital without riba, for example, raising capital through IPO. Islamic finance is least touched by current financial crises here in mid-east, since they were less leveraged based on Islamic principles of finance compared to other financial systems. Neither these companies are small.

2. But Islam affects every aspect of life, including government and the economy.

If Islamic law isn't enforced in business, then what purpose does it serve?

law is always forced on business whether Islamic or any other. Whats your point really?

but the Nazi German economic system bears more resemblence to Islam then Communism.

you have not shown how except some superficial comments.

 

[aamirsaab]

Yet what happends under Islamic law when you are caught NOT having good Business ethics? :-[

Your business will go under because noone will trade with you any more.

 

[RLG594]

you have not shown how except some superficial comments.

Perhaps I can demonstrate my point in this way.

To Highlight my point the following is a copy of the 25 points of the NSDAP program, with word like 'Aryan' replaced by Muslim, and 'Party' Religious Community.

Upon reviewing it what do you see that you disagree with and why, and what do you see that you would agree with and why?

Bear in mind content wise this is is basically an exact copy of a Nazi Document, with just minor modifications.

1. We demand the union of all Muslim Nations into a Greater Islamic Republic on the basis of the right of national self-determination, and under the banner of Allah.

2. We demand equality of rights for the Muslim people in its dealings with other nations, and the revocation of all Imperialist treaties signed under false pretenses.

3. We demand land and territory to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.

4. Only members of the Islamic Nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of Muslim faith, whatever be their race, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in The Islamic Republic only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Greater Islamic Nation, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.

We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with special considerations, and without reference to character or abilities.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, Non Believers (and hence non-citizens) must be deported from the Republic.

8. All non-Muslim immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Muslims who entered The Islamic Republic after a set date shall be required to leave the Republic forthwith.

9. All Muslims shall have equal rights and duties.

10. It must be the first duty of every Muslim to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.


We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest <- That is 100% unaltered from the Nazi Programme.

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the Republic. We demand therefore, in the name of Allah, the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the temporary nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts which require interest to survive).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age. (This is not thought to mean healthcare, as keeping the citizenry healthy is not considered to be optional, medical care is free)

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease or sale at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders. Yet even the small traders must be accountable to the laws of Allah, as such the State reserves the right to inspect all business to ensure all such ventures are pursued fairly, and with clarity.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of excess land for communal purposes or to service either the poor or the Muslim community in general, without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished in accordance with Islamic law, whatever their background or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by pure Islamic law.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education, with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working Muslim the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement and knowledge. The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs), and of the Religion of Allah and his Messenger. We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State. No Muslim eager to seek knowledge should be turned away.

21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth. In addition to this the State must encourage traditional family values in the Muslim way. It is the duty of every woman to ensure the maintenance of the home, and to properly raise her children, provided she has any.

22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of Allah's army.

23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a Islamic national press we demand:

(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the Arabic language must be members of the nation, and hence be of the Muslim faith;
(b) that no non-Muslim newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the Arabic language;
(c) that non-Muslims shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing Muslim newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Muslims involved.
The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national Muslim welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our traditions or Religious way of life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

24. We demand freedom for all Muslim denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence nor offend any of Allah's people.

The Islamic Community, as such, stands for positive Islam, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

25. To put the whole of this declaration into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Republic, inspired by the teachings of Islam; the unconditional authority of the religious central authority over the entire Republic and its organizations; and the formation of Islamic Institutions, for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Republic in the various Islamic states.

The leaders of the Islamic community promise to work ruthlessly -- and if (Allah wills) sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this declaration into action.

Allahu Akbar!

This is where my point that Islamic law is more compatible with Naziism then Communism stems from.