Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)

[aadil77]

But explain why - you cannot prove or demonstrate something by just saying it can you? In this case you also have to explain why the Bible compilers added these incidents if they are not true, surely doing so can only make your holy book look unholy? I don't know where this doctrine of perfect prophets comes from, who invented it?

You look at the example of prophet Muhammad - he was sinless, the ways of prophets are similar, if they make mistakes they are mentioned, prophet Muhammad ignored a blind man - his mistake is mentioned in the quran, prophet Musa killed a man whilst helping a man from his tribe - his mistake is also mentioned, prophet ayyub left his people because he was sick of their ignorance - his mistake is mentioned, prophet noah asked god to save his disbelieving son from the flood - his mistake is also mentioned.

After these instances the prophets pleaded sincerely for forgiveness, point is these examples are enough for mankind to show that humanly mistakes can be made and that repentance is always necessary for forgiveness. Unlike in your bible our prophets are not accused of commiting major sins just to relate to their people, these minor mistakes are enough of an example to learn from.

I don't think you realise what kind of connection these people had with god, you devalue god, you put Him down to humanly status - which is why you have no fear of Him and misuse His mercy, you disregard His qualities and His Might which is why you will never understand how much fear/love/faith of god a prophet has because they've had direct contact with Him. When you have direct communication with god and such a strong connection with Him you'd have to be stupid to be overcome by satan and commit any major sins - you would have god in your conscience almost all the time

 

[جوري]

See, this is one of those interpretations of Christianity done by someone who is not a Christian. In truth, UNDERSTANDING of the "trinity" is not necessary for salvation. In fact, I know many Christians who would argue that not even acceptance of the Trinity is necessary for salvation.

what do you need to know to be a good christian?
so a person can accept that Jesus is a prophet and be a christian? for instance Unitarians?

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

You look at the example of prophet Muhammad - he was sinless, the ways of prophets are similar, if they make mistakes they are mentioned, prophet Muhammad ignored a blind man - his mistake is mentioned in the quran, prophet Musa killed a man whilst helping a man from his tribe - his mistake is mentioned also mentioned, prophet ayyub left his people because he was sick of their ignorance - his mistake is also mentioned, prophet noah asked god to save his disbeleiving son from the flood - his mistake is also mentioned.

After the prophets would plead sincerely for forgiveness, point is these examples are enough for mankind to show that humanly mistakes can be made but repentance is always necessary and can save you. Unlike in your bible our prophets did not need to commit major sins just to relate to their people, these minor mistakes are enough of an example to learn from - you would have god in your conscience almost all the time

I don't think you realise what kind of connection these people had with god, you devalue god, you put Him down to humanly status - which is why you have no fear of Him, you disregard His qualities and His Might which is why you will never understand how much fear/love/faith of god a prophet has because they've had direct contact with Him. When you have a direct communication with god and such a strong connection with Him you would have to be stupid to be overcome by satan and commit any major sins.

Also adding to that

read this ayaah: "Whoso obeyeth Allah and the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they!"

The prophets were sinless, we see by the characters, they were prophets of God, how could they commit such filthy acts?

Also Allah tells us that there is no nation that there was no guide, a guide is one who guides with truth. A guide who guides us who to worship, how to live our life, whats bad for us and whats good for us ,for you must remain away from whats bad for you. The Noble Quran sets out a perfect example for each prophet and how we (concerning the humans of the earth) should live our lives. as they were/are a guidance. If we were to live our lives from our own ways and wills then certainly you have seen the disgusting events being taken in the past and the present which i am not going to mention.

"Verily! We have sent you with the truth, a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner. And there never was a nation but a warner had passed among them. " Al Quraan 35:24.

peace. . . . .

 

[M.I.A.]

sorry to move backwards but what distinction is made between the soul and who we are?
is the soul the person as we know them, there character or something deeper?
im not sure how to phrase the question.

its just in the quran its said that its not for us to ask who we are....loosley paraphrased and im not sure if its in context.
also another time it says that we are not to covet our own souls.

 

[Grace Seeker]

what do you need to know to be a good christian?
so a person can accept that Jesus is a prophet and be a christian? for instance Unitarians?

First, there is a difference between knowledge (what one has to know) and faith (what one believes). There is also a difference between knowledge and understanding.

To say that one has to UNDERSTAND the trinity is simply not true. I can know what the essence of the Trinity is, I can even believe it to be true, but that doesn't mean that I understand it. That is why I said that your interpretation of Christianity above was inaccurate.


Second to ask what one needs to know to be a good Christian is going to be different and more demanding than what one needs to know to be a Christian.

Recently I asked different groups of people who all identified themselves as Christians to simply define the term "Christian". I'm still accumulating their responses, but they vary widely. The reason for that variance can, in part, be explained by what one wrote:

So, let me be pedantic here a bit. When you make a definition you have to satisfy 2 criteria:
1. Sufficient conditions.
2. Necessary conditions.

The goal is to include everyone who are Christians and exclude everyone who is not.

"A Christian is someone who out of the love for Christ follows him all the days of his/her life in abiding faith. A Christian takes the teachings of scripture to heart and serves Christ in all that he/she does to further the Kingdom of God on Earth."​

Here you hint at a necessary condition: Christ. But I would ask: are you following a human Jesus? After all, you are only talking about "teachings" and furthering "the Kingdom of God". Jesus does not have to be divine to do either of these, does he? The "faith" can simply be faith that the teachings are good and the goal is worthwhile.

Is that sufficient? Doesn't a Christian also have to believe that Jesus was divine? How do we do that? Don't we also have to believe that Jesus died and was resurrected (what I tend to call "Christ")?

So you have what is called a necessary condition to be a Christian, but not a sufficient condition, because other religions can also have the same condition. (I would also argue about whether it is necessary, since I think you can be a Christian even if you can't love God with all your heart, strength, and mind, but let's do that later.)

Basically, you start with a list of necessary conditions. When that list is such that it guarantees the result, then the list is "sufficient".

Sometimes the list need one be one item. In the case of Christianity, there are several necessary conditions that must be met before the list is sufficient to label that person as "Christian".

The Nicene and Apostle's Creeds are claimed (not just by me) to be that list of necessary conditions that is sufficient to define Christianity.

And what we find is that what one person considers necessary another does not. Many would accept the Nicene Creed as definitive, but some ask for a little more and some don't need all that is contained therein. But more than a few linked the definition of being a Christian to baptism irregardless of what one actually believed. Hence the list of all that is necessary so as to be sufficient to say this person is a Christian and that person is not is impossible to be agreed upon.

My own list would include the following statements.

A Christian....

...belongs to Christ.
...has placed his/her trust in the work of Christ to effect the restoration of one's spiritual fellowship with God.
...acknowledges Jesus to be BOTH one's Lord AND Savior.
...acknowledges Jesus to be the incarnation of the one and only God come to dwell among us and reconcile we who are separated from him by sin back to himself.
...is a follower of Christ to the extent that the teachings of Jesus and one's ongoing relationship with God are patterned after Jesus' example and this forms one spiritual and moral core.
...is a follower of Jesus to the exclusion of everything and everyone else.
​

 

[جوري]

First, there is a difference between knowledge (what one has to know) and faith (what one believes). There is also a difference between knowledge and understanding.

How can one have faith without understanding?

To say that one has to UNDERSTAND the trinity is simply not true. I can know what the essence of the Trinity is, I can even believe it to be true, but that doesn't mean that I understand it. That is why I said that your interpretation of Christianity above was inaccurate.

That is truly too bad, because that article of faith is the essence of your religion, nothing distinguishes your religion from others, save that piece 'the death of god' which you must accept to attain paradise!

Second to ask what one needs to know to be a good Christian is going to be different and more demanding than what one needs to know to be a Christian.

does your god care for numbers or quality? and if it is quality, then why does the part that matter require that one shuts off their understanding?

Recently I asked different groups of people who all identified themselves as Christians to simply define the term "Christian". I'm still accumulating their responses, but they vary widely. The reason for that variance can, in part, be explained by what one wrote:

fascinating considering the majority of Christians are at odds with those values and I don't see what 'love' really means to them, I find them to be the most hateful people I have personally encountered!

And what we find is that what one person considers necessary another does not. Many would accept the Nicene Creed as definitive, but some ask for a little more and some don't need all that is contained therein. But more than a few linked the definition of being a Christian to baptism irregardless of what one actually believed. Hence the list of all that is necessary so as to be sufficient to say this person is a Christian and that person is not is impossible to be agreed upon.

It doesn't really answer my question, it is a long statement leading no where.

My own list would include the following statements.

A Christian....

...belongs to Christ.
...has placed his/her trust in the work of Christ to effect the restoration of one's spiritual fellowship with God.
...acknowledges Jesus to be BOTH one's Lord AND Savior.
...acknowledges Jesus to be the incarnation of the one and only God come to dwell among us and reconcile we who are separated from him by sin back to himself.
...is a follower of Christ to the extent that the teachings of Jesus and one's ongoing relationship with God are patterned after Jesus' example and this forms one spiritual and moral core.
...is a follower of Jesus to the exclusion of everything and everyone else.
​

so in fact the theme is accepting something of which you have no understanding and having your entire faith rest upon that, yet unable to explain it to others and feel no need to!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

How can one have faith without understanding?

I believe that light is best described by a combination of both particle theory and wave theory. Do I understand this? Not completely. But I do believe it.

I have asked what was the purpose of the addendum "And Allah knows best." to responses explaining Islam to me in these forums. And the answer I got then was that even within Islam there are things that are not understood and taken on faith simply because Allah said it was so.

I don't see why one has to have understanding to have faith.

That is truly too bad, because that article of faith is the essence of your religion, nothing distinguishes your religion from others, save that piece 'the death of god' which you must accept to attain paradise!

Yes, that is indeed a key tenet of our faith, and books have been written trying to explain the manner in which the death of Christ is applied to effect the lives of others. But exactly how it is that it becomes efficacious for us is ultimately a statement of faith; meaning that in the end we trust God who said that it is efficacious whether we understand the mechanism of it or not. I acknowledge that such a response is not be a good enough answer for many people. It sounds like you are included in that group.

does your god care for numbers or quality? and if it is quality, then why does the part that matter require that one shuts off their understanding?

I'm not sure that I understand the question. If I do understand it, the answer would be quality, but I don't see that faith requires one to shut off his or her understanding. It simply says that faith and trust can be present even without understanding. My parents love me. I know this to be true. But I don't understand how or why they do, only that they do.

fascinating considering the majority of Christians are at odds with those values and I don't see what 'love' really means to them, I find them to be the most hateful people I have personally encountered!

Guilty as charged. Far too many who take on the name of Christ don't live in such a way that exemplifies any connection with him.

It doesn't really answer my question, it is a long statement leading no where.

OK.

so in fact the theme is accepting something of which you have no understanding and having your entire faith rest upon that, yet unable to explain it to others and feel no need to!

No. I don't think that is the theme. See what I said above about the ability to have faith in things even when we don't understand. I find this in all religions, not just Christianity.

Do you think that everything that is accepted as a tenet of faith in Islam is understood by its practioners?

all the best

Thank-you. I continue to wish you the best as well.

 

[جوري]

I believe that light is best described by a combination of both particle theory and wave theory. Do I understand this? Not completely. But I do believe it.

as stated before ones salvation isn't based on wave/particle theory.. anymore than my salvation is contingent on understanding Islamic finance or jurisprudence.. if God wants his religion to be accessible to everyone, then he'd make the piece that matters most, accessible to everyone, easily understood by young and old, educated and under-educated, theologians and laymen alike!



all the best

 

[Ramadhan]

Hiroshi, I am just entering this thread quickly, with no intention of further replies to any of your posts, to say that the ignorance and arrogance that you are currently displaying, is staggering. Are you here to learn about Islam, or to teach us it? If the latter, then I don't need to say the words. If the former, then please dispense with your pearls of wisdom. They are not needed or wanted. Please do not tell us we are wrong without having knowledge of our religion, the language of our book and everything else. The Arabic word used is nafs. This word is used for mainly person, and self, mainly in the plural, all over the Qur'an, as anfus, mainly as anfusakum, meaning yourselves. Ruh is the word used for the soul which is in the body. The way the word "soul" is used in this translation is for a person, eg when you say to someone, "Oh, you're such a good soul" - everyone knows that is referring to the person.

Peace.

you really are a sad case... I don't know which is worse, arguing from ignorance or persisting in it?

It is indeed staggering, that Hiroshi's has the guts (or ignorance) to come here and plaster us with copy-paste job of Qur'an verses and hadiths of which he doesn't understand the literal meanings of those verses (he doesn't seem to understand arabic) let alone the context, and yet attempts to enlighten us with the "new meanings" that he created for those verses.
The more staggering part is that he does it again and again.

 

[Ramadhan]

See, this is one of those interpretations of Christianity done by someone who is not a Christian. In truth, UNDERSTANDING of the "trinity" is not necessary for salvation.

So, NOT understanding who you worship is OK in christianity?
I am baffled, frankly. It seems that christianity is stripped off more and more.
At first i thought that following Jesus pbuh teachings was NOT necessary in being saved and attain paradise, but now it seems that even NOT understanding the MOST fundamental of all (ie. who you worship and pray to) is also OK.

In fact, I know many Christians who would argue that not even acceptance of the Trinity is necessary for salvation.

This is also staggering.
So, NOT accepting god, or parts of god (according to christians) is also OK and still gets you to paradise?

 

[Hiroshi]

you really are a sad case... I don't know which is worse, arguing from ignorance or persisting in it?

also while at it, go ahead and look at the word روح and نَفْسٍ do you think you can do that for me, before proceeding? as it is I tire fast from arguing with fools..

here is a dictionary http://translation.babylon.com/arabic/to-english/

superimpose it on the verses you are using and then come argue you with me, a native Arabic speaker!

all the best

You are to be commended that you can speak two languages. And I am sure that you want to tell me something very relevant here concerning Arabic words. But sometimes strongly held beliefs seem to carry more weight than mere words.

The Qur'an translated by Al-Hilali and Khan reads this way at Surah 21:105: "My righteous slaves shall inherit the land (i.e. the land of Paradise)."

It must therefore be an Islamic teaching amongst at least some Muslims that what is inherited here is Paradise, contrary to what you have told me. Probably the translators of this version understand the verse to actually refer to Paradise in heaven. If so then they would see no conflict here with what they already believe.

Many thanks for the link to the dictionary. I will try to research the words that you have mentioned.

 

[Grace Seeker]

This is also staggering.
So, NOT accepting god, or parts of god (according to christians) is also OK and still gets you to paradise?

I think you misunderstand me here. In saying, "I know many Christians who would argue that not even acceptance of the Trinity is necessary for salvation." I did not mean to imply that they do not accept God. I was refer to the fact that there are some people who accept that Christ is God and put their faith in him, but they do not accept the theological dogma known as the doctrine of the Trinity as being an accurate description of the nature of God. And it is only some who would argue that idea. Most Christians would expect that to be a Christian involves a statement of faith which includes a credo statement along the lines of:

I believe in one God the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven and sitteth at the right hand of the Father. And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there shall be no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the prophets. In one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins; I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.

 

[Hiroshi]

I've read many of these claims that you quote in JW magazines aimed at muslims, unfortunately they are false

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[Grace Seeker]

as stated before ones salvation isn't based on wave/particle theory.. anymore than my salvation is contingent on understanding Islamic finance or jurisprudence.. if God wants his religion to be accessible to everyone, then he'd make the piece that matters most, accessible to everyone, easily understood by young and old, educated and under-educated, theologians and laymen alike!



all the best

So, NOT understanding who you worship is OK in christianity?
I am baffled, frankly. It seems that christianity is stripped off more and more.
At first i thought that following Jesus pbuh teachings was NOT necessary in being saved and attain paradise, but now it seems that even NOT understanding the MOST fundamental of all (ie. who you worship and pray to) is also OK.

Do Muslims view the term "faith" as a synonymn for "understanding"?

I don't see how understanding has anything to do with access to God. I thought that for the Muslim access to God was achieved through one's own personal obedience and merit.

For Christians, access to God is achieved through faith in the meritorious work of Christ. Our scriptures describe this faith as "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" (Hebrew 11:1) -- a reference to our ultimate salvation experience of being united with God in the eschaton.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
(Hebrews 11:3-39)

 

[Hiroshi]

did you bother look at rooh vs. nafs as I have recommended and placed them for you in Arabic plus supplemented you with a dictionary..
all the best

Not yet. I thought you were still talking about Paradise.

the mere fact that the 'soul' parts from the body upon death, denotes no more than the death of the body which is a vessel for the soul.. it is so rudimentary, that I can't imagine why you need the convoluted route to make a non-point.. you need to make a sort of paradigm shift when looking at other people's scriptures and not come in with your preconceived indoctrination looking to affirm your beliefs in spite of what everyone says and quotes..

My point was that Surah 39:42 seems to use the plural form of "nafs" in the same way that that "rooh" might be used.

The Hebrew equivalents of these words (correct me if I am wrong) are nephesh and ruah respectively. Nephesh means "soul" in the sense of a person, an animal, or the life that that person or animal has. Ruah means "spirit" and has a variety of different meanings. In the case of the spirit leaving the body at death, it means the life force: that which animates the body. But this does not imply that it continues conscious existence without the body after death. I say this just to explain my own viewpoint on "soul" and "spirit".

 

[Hiroshi]

Yes every soul shall taste death doesnt mean it will Die eternally!

I agree. God can resurrect the dead and restore them to life.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I agree. God can resurrect the dead and restore them to life.

Hiroshi, I think one thing that we need to be clear on is if you mean to imply that the dead no longer exist at all until the time of the resurrection, or if the dead exist on a different plane of existence until the time of the resurrection?

I suspect you mean the first, while Muslims and Christians such as myself would mean the second.

 

[Ramadhan]

Do Muslims view the term "faith" as a synonymn for "understanding"?

You ask any muslim, and S/he will be able to explain about God:
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
"He begets not, nor was He begotten;
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."


I am yet to meet TWO christians (including pastors, priests, what have you) who are able to provide the same (simple) explanation about god (ie. the father, his son, and holy spirit) that they are worshipping.

 

[Ramadhan]

For Christians, access to God is achieved through faith in the meritorious work of Christ.

In this sentence, you are implying that christ is not equal to god.
He sounds like having the monopoly on intercession with god (ie. he is not god)

 

[Grace Seeker]

You ask any muslim, and S/he will be able to explain about God:
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
"He begets not, nor was He begotten;
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

But naidamar, that isn't understanding God. That is simply yet another form of a faith statement about God, just like the credo I posted above.

I am yet to meet TWO christians (including pastors, priests, what have you) who are able to provide the same (simple) explanation about god (ie. the father, his son, and holy spirit) that they are worshipping.

But I'll bet you've run into many Christians who would affirm the faith statement that I provided above.