Islam = logic + ethics + morality.

[Whatsthepoint]

First of all we are not to go anywhere near anything that is harmful to us (such as intoxicants or drugs). Secondly, if it is in the case of medicine then obviously it's not a crime. Lastly, it would depend on the case. I gave the general rule of thumb.

I was talking about a drug addict going trough the abstinence crisis, so all he or she thinks about is drugs and how to get them.

 

[aamirsaab]

Euthanasia?
Clearly someone gets hurt in this case. Homosexuality? No one gets hurt.

No, but it is illogical for mankind to do it. There is no logic behind it other than ''oh it is pleasurable''. So is eating. Do that instead.

....You have to prove homosexuality is a crime (using logic).

What do all of the crimes so far have in common? The actual act (sodomy, theft, w/e) itself PREVENTS society from working. So surely such an act would be deemed a crime, no?
Let me examplify it for you even simpler: a watch uses cogs. If you have cogs that turn the wrong way, then you will end up with a watch that doesn't do its function properly. So what do you have to do? Either remove that cog from the watch or replace it.

If it were proven you were sane at the time of the request, I personally wouldn't prosecute the person who shot you. Of course, proving the sanity of a dead person is very hard, but not so hard with living adults (homosexuals in this case)

Ah but who decides what is sane and what is insane? Humans do. Humans are fickle and subject to change (and thus they contradict themselves, as I have shown with the polygamy/adultery example earlier on)

Some of us hold individual liberty in higher esteem then the well being of society, which the legalization of homosexuality would not change drastically.

That is the problem - individual liberty is bull. Humans are not consistant, we like change. What suits us one day doesn't suit us the next. Any thriving society is so because it meets the needs of the majority of its people not the needs of one.

I was talking about a drug addict going trough the abstinence crisis, so all he or she thinks about is drugs and how to get them.

Case by case scenario.

 

[Eeman]

salam alaikum,
are there any quranic references to the punishment of theft being having your hands chopped off? $

 

[crayon]

As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. (Qur'an 5:38)

 

[Tornado]

No, but it is illogical for mankind to do it. There is no logic behind it other than ''oh it is pleasurable''. So is eating. Do that instead.

If it's illogical to do it, it's a crime? There is no logical reason behind me wanting to watch/play sports except that it's pleasurable as well. Surely that isn't a crime?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

No, but it is illogical for mankind to do it. There is no logic behind it other than ''oh it is pleasurable''. So is eating. Do that instead.

there's lots of logic behind it. Primarily it's letting people be who they are and love whom they want to love. And that's about it, besides that its pleasurable and desired by consenting adults.

What do all of the crimes so far have in common? The actual act (sodomy, theft, w/e) itself PREVENTS society from working. So surely such an act would be deemed a crime, no?
Let me examplify it for you even simpler: a watch uses cogs. If you have cogs that turn the wrong way, then you will end up with a watch that doesn't do its function properly. So what do you have to do? Either remove that cog from the watch or replace it.

Homosexuals do not prevent the society from working. They do not prevent heterosexuals from reproducing, unless of course you wanna argue the bad influence public expression of homosexuality has on the rest, but you haven't mentioned it so far.

Ah but who decides what is sane and what is insane? Humans do. Humans are fickle and subject to change (and thus they contradict themselves, as I have shown with the polygamy/adultery example earlier on)
That is the problem - individual liberty is bull. Humans are not consistant, we like change. What suits us one day doesn't suit us the next. Any thriving society is so because it meets the needs of the majority of its people.

Indeed, and if the majority feel homosexuality is ok, we legalize it. That's how democracy works.
Though I know that's not what you were saying.
I see nothing bad in change, change is usually a good thing, and morals are not exempt from it, at least imho.
As for polygamy, I'm not against it, though it should be available for everyone, unlike the islamic version.

 

[Eeman]

As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. (Qur'an 5:38)

is that taken literally???
i read somewhere i dont remeber where that Allah swt is referring to cutting off their means hmmm Allahu alam

 

[crayon]

is that taken literally???
i read somewhere i dont remeber where that Allah swt is referring to cutting off their means hmmm Allahu alam

As literal as it gets, yes.

 

[Eeman]

OHhhhhhhhhhh Dear!!!
ummmm that is a bit extreme.

Jazak'Allah khair for that sis

oh but what if they repent? then do you still chop their hands off cos that is just something that i would not make sense of coming from Allah swt i mean Allahu alam, who the hell am i to say anything against His words? but He is the most merciful!

 

[Tornado]

oh but what if they repent? then do you still chop their hands off cos that is just something that i would not make sense of coming from Allah swt i mean Allahu alam, who the hell am i to say anything against His words? but He is the most merciful!
[/COLOR][/I][/B]

I think the decision is in the hands of the victim (forgiveness).

 

[aamirsaab]

If it's illogical to do it, it's a crime? There is no logical reason behind me wanting to watch/play sports except that it's pleasurable as well. Surely that isn't a crime?

Illogical and harmful to society. This is why I gave the example of theft. Only time sports ticks those boxes is when it is excessive - so far, it is not!

there's lots of logic behind it. Primarily it's letting people be who they are and love whom they want to love. And that's about it, besides that its pleasurable and desired by consenting adults.

It is emotional - not logical. Reproduction is logical - sodomy is not!

Homosexuals do not prevent the society from working.

Sodomy prevents the species from reproducing - just like murder.

They do not prevent heterosexuals from reproducing, unless of course you wanna argue the bad influence public expression of homosexuality has on the rest, but you haven't mentioned it so far.

I'm dealing with the act itself (of sodomy).

Indeed, and if the majority feel homosexuality is ok, we legalize it. That's how democracy works.

Again though, we are talking about what is emotionally ok. This takes us on a very very slippery slope.

I see nothing bad in change, change is usually a good thing, and morals are not exempt from it, at least imho.

Indeed CHANGE is usually a good thing but it depends on what that change is. Look at how the UK decided to deal with it's debt problem: buil 100 (or so) super casinos. Look how all both the UK and US fund the military by its government but cancer research is a charity. Surely you can see the points I am making.

As for polygamy, I'm not against it, though it should be available for everyone, unlike the islamic version.

The problem I have is not whether polygamy is allowed or disallowed - it is the fact that ADULTERY is allowed and POLYGAMY isn't. Do you see the stupidity in this ruling?

....
oh but what if they repent? then do you still chop their hands off cos that is just something that i would not make sense of coming from Allah swt i mean Allahu alam, who the hell am i to say anything against His words? but He is the most merciful!

It is upto the judge (in the courtroom)

 

[Trumble]

Sodomy prevents the species from reproducing - just like murder.

I am amazed to see such utter drivel coming from a moderator, of all people. You have just ignored my shooting down this rubbish earlier.

How does sodomy 'prevent the species from reproducing' any more than, say, oral sex does? Or vaginal sex if contraceptives are being used? Are they 'just like murder' too? Or maybe going to a football match instead of staying home for a 'romantic' pro-creative evening with the wife is 'just like murder'?!

 

[KAding]

Thou shalt not be homosexual, it is only logical

aamirsaab:

 

[KAding]

Sodomy prevents the species from reproducing - just like murder.

:crickey:

So then you think staying childless is 'like murder' also. And should then logically have the same punishment? Despite the fact that overall mankind is having too many children for us all to sustain, rather than too few?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings aamirsaab,

Normally your posts are full of good sense, but you've said some truly horrible things in this thread. I think Trumble said it best: "bigoted garbage". The fact that you have yet to respond to any of his points shows the weakness of your case.

Peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

The way I see it, for atheists, the issue of homosexuality is acceptable because they see it as an act between two consenting individuals that ultimately doesn't do any harm to society.

This is just an aside from the actual subject of the thread, but I wonder what the atheists on this forum would think about consented acts of necrophilia (perhaps via a signed letter prior to death)? Do they find it disgusting? Abominable? Damaging to society if such a thing were to happen widespread and be paraded all over the television programs and taught in classrooms as a 'life-style' choice?

The difference between homosexuality/heterosexuality and other sexual acts is that the first two are a relationship between two living consenting adults. Homosexuality and heterosexuality have more in common than homosexuality and say necrophilia, only a relationship between living adults can result in love, fullness of a relationship and all that.
Homosexuality is no longer classified as a disease, necrophilia, pedophilia etc are, though this isn't really an argument.
I'm not sure about the scenario you described... I guess we'd have to allow it.. And anyway, the percentage of necrophiliacs is probably so minute, that they'd have a hard time organizing parades or winding their way into textbooks.

 

[aamirsaab]

How does sodomy 'prevent the species from reproducing' any more than, say, oral sex does? Or vaginal sex if contraceptives are being used? Are they 'just like murder' too? Or maybe going to a football match instead of staying home for a 'romantic' pro-creative evening with the wife is 'just like murder'?!

My point was, there are alternatives to sodomy. You gave an example in your post when homosexuality would make sense - in an extreme case. I'm giving general statements (relating to logic, ethic and morality)

Thou shalt not be homosexual, it is only logical

LOL at that pic.

:crickey:

So then you think staying childless is 'like murder' also. And should then logically have the same punishment?

No no no not at all. I'm saying the act of commiting sodomy deals more harm than it does good for society (just as murder, theft etc does). Perhaps my example is flawed.

Despite the fact that overall mankind is having too many children for us all to sustain, rather than too few?

Yet homosexuality is low in general?

Greetings aamirsaab,

Normally your posts are full of good sense, but you've said some truly horrible things in this thread. I think Trumble said it best: "bigoted garbage". The fact that you have yet to respond to any of his points shows the weakness of your case.

The intention of this thread was to highlight logic ethic and morality and how those three are infused in almost every law (in any society). As such, they ALLOW society to run properly. This is my core point.

My intention is not to offend anyone but to show that for society to run properly, the laws must contain logic, ethic and morality. In hindsight, perhaps my approach was too heavy handed and perhaps I should have been clearer in my original post.

I also apologise if I come across as some sort of homophobic jerk. I'm not saying kill all these homos or prevent them from having rights etc - just saying that for society to do its job properly (end result is expansion) homosexuality (or rather sodomy) gets in the way of this ergo it is illogical, unethical and contains little moral and thus it is considered a crime (in Islam)

p.s; Keltoi, I have decided not to give out interpretations of the Quranic ayats (this is a job for scholars). From the two translations I have at home, both word that ayat differently.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

If a person consents while he/she is alive and in full sanity, to have his/her body donated for the cause of necrophilia, how would that be any different to one who wishes to donate his/her organs etc for scientific research and stuff?

So what if there's only a minority? Give them their rights, man. How bigoted and oh so evil of you to consider necrophilia a disease. :rollseyes

I've already said why I personally think necrophilia is a disease and why heterosexuality and homosexuality are not.
Anyway, I said I'd probably give them rights if there was a verified document..

 

[Whatsthepoint]

My point was, there are alternatives to sodomy. You gave an example in your post when homosexuality would make sense - in an extreme case. I'm giving general statements (relating to logic, ethic and morality)

The reasons why homosexuality should be allowed have nothing to do with overpopulation, the same as reasons against it speaking of reproduction don't make sense.

No no no not at all. I'm saying the act of commiting sodomy deals more harm than it does good for society (just as murder, theft etc does). Perhaps my example is flawed.

What are the bads besides slightly lover birth rates?

Yet homosexuality is low in general?

Whats your point here?

The intention of this thread was to highlight logic ethic and morality and how those three are infused in almost every law (in any society). As such, they ALLOW society to run properly. This is my core point.
My intention is not to offend anyone but to show that for society to run properly, the laws must contain logic, ethic and morality. In hindsight, perhaps my approach was too heavy handed and perhaps I should have been clearer in my original post.
I also apologise if I come across as some sort of homophobic jerk. I'm not saying kill all these homos or prevent them from having rights etc - just saying that for society to do its job properly (end result is expansion) homosexuality (or rather sodomy) gets in the way of this ergo it is illogical, unethical and contains little moral.

What problems is the acceptance of homosexuality causing in nordic countries, The Netherlands, Belgium etc?
Why do you think the end result of a society is expansion?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Hypothetically speaking, say there was a sizable amount of necrophiles in the world and they were in the textbooks and TV programs.

Say they had donation centres, where people can choose to donate their bodies after death for the enjoyment of necrophiles.

Say it was as common and widespread as homosexuality.

Say it was promoted as a life-stlyle choice.

Would you, or would you not find it a bad thing for society as a whole? Would you look down upon such a society that allows and promotes this practice in such a manner?

I probably would.
Anyway, I said I don't approve of analogies comparing homosexuality to necrophilia.