Israel and the annihilation of Palestine

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Turin Turambar said:
anis_z24,

If what you say was true, then the best countries in the world would be those that follow at least in part the Quran, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran. Is that so? Don't you think that places like Sweden or Switzerland are much better in any respect? In terms of wealth, freedom, lack of corruption and violence, etc?

Then how can you think that going back to the Quran can make the world better? The societies that have no Quran are actually doing much better!
Take look at what Ibn Warraq has to say.
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Salam
The Quran can only be followed by the full any other way doesnt work .
also the best time the world lived in was during the Rule that followed Islam to the letter.
 
izmi said:
Does that mean Allah could not keep that Rule to the present day?
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Salaam,

Allah has given mankind the Quran,unchaged for 1400 years whose guardian is the Creator of all that is.

as the quran states,If Allah will it all of man kind will be muslim but he does not.A test for the world to accept guidance or to reject it.
to keep the covenant or break it.
 
izmi said:
The Quran says in 3-126 that victory comes only from Allah.
As Allah has granted victory to the Israelis in every war with Arab armies, it can be concluded that He agrees with the Jews settling back in their homeland.
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That doesn't make sense. Don't you think that it could be the victories are only a delusion as to what really lies ahead?
 
izmi said:
Quran 3-126 says "...There is no victory except from Allah, the Powerful, the Just".

It is up to you to believe or not what the Quran says.

Every time there was a confrontation between non-Muslim armies and Muslim armies, I remember the Muslim crowds saying Allah was on their side and could only grant them victory.
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So this means Allah wants the jews to win? It is but a test for the Muslims, and a delusion for the jews. We'll see what happens when Jesus comes back. We'll kick their...:X
 
Turin Turambar said:
To anis_z24

But I have read the Quran! I would never criticize it without reading it. Well, in reality I have never read it cover to cover, but I have read the most interesting pieces and probably all in all over 50% of the whole. I haven’t read more because for a non-Muslim it is really a very tiresome reading. I promise you I don’t say this in a spirit of disparaging it. If you take a non-Muslim, even an intellectually curious one, and you give it to him he will probably tire fairly soon especially because of the lack of a chronological or thematic plan. But I am digressing.

Regarding the fact that nobody was killed, I will mention the following: Kab ibn al-Ashraf, the Jews of Khaybar, the Banu Qurayza. See, I have read on the subject...;)

So, you see, there were people killed back then for thinking differently and there are people killed right know for thinking differently. For instance, at this very moment, Sunnis and Shias are killing each other for their differences in Iraq.

That is my problem. I see a cause and an effect. Of course I see much that was good in your prophet, but I also see things that were not so good. And those things are also having effects even now. That is why I recommend my Muslim brothers (because we are all brothers under the same God) to review the spiritual choices they have made.
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I agree. Many years ago I borrowed the quoran and read it, and it was a major dissapointment.. I think it was pretty chaotic compared to The Bible, the language was primitive and after the first few chapters I really started to have doubts wether I would be able to read through it at all... But I did.
 
Christian_dove said:
I agree. Many years ago I borrowed the quoran and read it, and it was a major dissapointment.. I think it was pretty chaotic compared to The Bible, the language was primitive and after the first few chapters I really started to have doubts wether I would be able to read through it at all... But I did.
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That's funny. After the first few pages of reading the bible I realised exactly how much it was changed. Mentioning things as crude as naked prophets laying drunk in their tents. Quite an offensive slander if you ask me. And what was that about Abraham wrestling with God? Was that supposed to be a joke, or was that an attempt to degrade God?
The Qur'an's langauge is anything but primitive. By the way, unless you know arabic you haven't read the Qur'an. You've read the translation of the meaning. Learn arabic and try to produce one chapter like it if it's so primitive. You obviously have a primitive understanding of what primitive is. Otherwise you'd realise the Qur'an is the height of eloquency. I mean, most of the time it's writing out some long list of 'so and so' the son of 'so and so'... for pages on end! Who is as brave to sit through that? The reason that not even the pope has memorised the bible is because christians lack the knowledge of what the bible even is. .
 
~Mu'MiNaH~ said:
Because it was the most ridiculous thing i've ever read, God is far above that man-made scripture.
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Sure it was man made. You think God himself came down from the heavens and wrote the quoran?

But that wasn't my question. You said "After the first few pages of reading the bible I realised exactly how much it was changed."

Well, exactly how much?
 
Christian_dove said:
Sure it was man made. You think God himself came down from the heavens and wrote the quoran?

But that wasn't my question. You said it was changed.
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What you said was very silly. But anyway, everyone knows the bible was changed. There was even a documentary by christians on television about it. Have you read the gospel of barnabus?
 
Christian_dove said:
That's very interesting. Tell me, how did you realize it had changed? You have read the original scripts somewhere?
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Salaam

How about you go and read the original, then you'll see the error of your ways.
 
The closest we can get is the dead sea scrools, and comparing those texts to the modern translations of the old testament shows that there are remarkable few changes.
 
anis_z24 said:
Salam,
May Allah guid Turin Turambar and the likes of him.
That is the way to go, have an open mind.
As for Miseshayek; what do think of having a look at Islam.. After all this forum site is called Islamicboard so you could mean while learn about Islam.
I hope you find the truth..
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Thank you for the kind invitation. However, I doubt seriously that I will be converting to Islam. But perhaps I should explain why - since the reasons are probably not what you expect.

I was reared as a Christian. At about age 16, after "confirmation" in the denomination I was reared in, I came to the conclusion that the theology of Christianity was radically defective and that the behavior of its advocates was generally hypocritical.

For some decades thereafter I described myself as an atheist, an agnostic or a deists, since, like most people in the U.S. I saw all relgions as mere reflections of one brand or another of Christianity. Since I definitely found Christianity and its conception of G_d to be unacceptable, it "followed" that all religion beyond a bare deism were unacceptable.

About a decade ago, I became aware, quite accidentally, that the Christian outlook on G_d and religion were not typical of all other religions. At that time I looked very extensively At Islam and Judaism. While I concluded and still conclude that Islam has many attractive features and is generally head and shoulders above most forms of Christianity, it appears to me that it also has several of the features that I find most objectionable about Christianity and that it has historically taken at least one major "wrong turn."

Hence, Judaism came out on top. There are, of course, some doctrines believed in by some Jews that I still disagree with, but the interesting thing about Judaism is that really is no orthodoxy [in the sense that term has in the West] and, indeed, little or no theology. I would be happy to explain further if you wish, but this is probably not the place for such a discussion.
 
miseshayek said:
However, I doubt seriously that I will be converting to Islam. But perhaps I should explain why - since the reasons are probably not what you expect.
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Al Quran (2:18) Yusuf Ali --
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

miseshayek said:
While I concluded and still conclude that Islam has many attractive features and is generally head and shoulders above most forms of Christianity, it appears to me that it also has several of the features that I find most objectionable about Christianity and that it has historically taken at least one major "wrong turn."
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Such as??

miseshayek said:
Hence, Judaism came out on top. There are, of course, some doctrines believed in by some Jews that I still disagree with, but the interesting thing about Judaism is that really is no orthodoxy [in the sense that term has in the West] and, indeed, little or no theology. I would be happy to explain further if you wish, but this is probably not the place for such a discussion.
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I too believe that Judaism is head and shoulders superior to Christianity, but I still find misleading. The authenticity of the Torah is quite questionable, the Jewish perspective on the creation of the earth is unscientific, the Torah encourages gender inequality, and there are are other grave misconceptions in the Torah.

People have every right to worship whoever they want, but that doesnt necessarilly mean they are in the straight path.
 
Christian_dove said:
Sure it was man made. You think God himself came down from the heavens and wrote the quoran?

But that wasn't my question. You said "After the first few pages of reading the bible I realised exactly how much it was changed."

Well, exactly how much?
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If I tell you a story ... by the time it reaches the tenth person down the chain, it has already changed dramatically ... would you agree with that much? The first bible wasn't written in Aramaic, which was the language spoken by Jesus.... tons will be lost in translation or what the author's subjective view ... it is a far cry from the original spoken word of Jesus, Still Muslims believe all the scriptures came from God, in the Quran it tells us woe to those who change God's words with their own hands knowing full well the consequence of what they are doing... I can't expect that to be evidence for you as you are not Muslim.... but that is proof enough for most of us... Also the fact that all copies of the Quran are identical and unaltered for centuries, is enough of a testament.... I will not get into the Qur'an in great depth as there are tons of threads here covering it in great details ... By the way I am curious if you have in fact read the dead sea scrolls... I had a chance to read some sections and I think its content would be surprising... WHY A HANDFUL OF RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS CONSPIRED TO SUPPRESS THE REVOLUTIONARY CONTENTS OF THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS?...... and in it there are doctrines about the coming of Islam.... please read it ... if you can learn a Semitic language it would be a great advantage.... it would fill in so much that is LOST IN TRANSLATIONAL .... peace
 
I find it amusing how you say " I am a Christian" and in the same breath post something that says However, God still views genuine Jews as His Chosen People and Israel as His Chosen Nation. Israel is still the "apple of His eye".

is it then wrong of me to assume that you believe as a Christian you're a second class citizen in Gods eyes?

That the jews would be powerful once again has been mentioned in the Quran, Allah says;

The Israelites

4
And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.

5
So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.

6
Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.

7
(Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.

8
It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.
 
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God still views genuine Jews as His Chosen People and Israel as His Chosen Nation. Israel is still the "apple of His eye".

is it then wrong of me to assume that you believe as a Christian your a second class citizen in Gods eyes?
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Your lack of understanding of scripture is very apparent. Do you have any idea what "chosen people" means... what were they chosen for? They were chosen to follow Gods laws of the Torah. The Bible actually specifically says that all humans are equal and loved in Gods eyes. Therefore not only is your theory way off... but your lack of knowledge on the subject makes you look like a fool.
 
:sl:
This thread hasn't changed a bit. Seriously, you guys are all off-topic.
 
ManchesterFolk said:
Your lack of understanding of scripture is very apparent. Do you have any idea what "chosen people" means... what were they chosen for? They were chosen to follow Gods laws of the Torah. The Bible actually specifically says that all humans are equal and loved in Gods eyes. Therefore not only is your theory way off... but your lack of knowledge on the subject makes you look like a fool.
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I love how you simply sit and wait for someone to respond before you jump in with a few harsh words and think you've proven something..are you always looking for a squabble out of boredom or is life just generally hard on you?

I have said absolutely nothing about the Bible, I asked another member (to be more specific-NOT YOU) about a certain phrase that she pasted here saying that jews were the "apple of God's eye" I know that the Bible says all humans are equal in God's eyes...thats why I stressed on that particular phrase..I was wondering if she had actually read what she pasted and if so, how she as a Christian could actually believe God would favour a certain people over others.
Now dear, before you start on me once again, I suggest you take a few chill pills and read what I wrote, think about what im saying and get on with your life.
 
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